OK, I'm going to practice w/o a license. I know very well what I'm talking about re: grapes, but I'm not a tomato pro, I only grow them at home.

I'm assuming that you have problems with leaf spot, even as we speak? If so neither Bordeaux nor any of the other preventative sprays will do you the slightest bit of good. You need an eradicant, THEN you put a preventative spray on.
In the grape biz, at least on small plantings, one especially useful eradicant is potasium bicarb. Yup, believe it or don't. Hie you to your nearest garden center, where it will be for sale, and then use it in the morning. Let things dry out during the day, and, in the evening, put on a preventative. If you're determined to be 'organic' [the term loses its meaning at precisely this point: spray is spray] use something containing copper. Bordeaux will do. But if you'd like to be effective, use something very much like mancozeb, which uses Mg, Co, and Zn, and is very effective. It's close enough to 'organic' for all but the Most Pure. If copper is organic, then most certainly Mg and Zn are as well...

Enough. Sorry for the r & r.

Geo

Well, I'm going to say that Earthboxes (or sub-irrigated container boxes of whatever stripe) are pretty much magical to me. My previous gardening experiences were like yours, I could grow some things and certainly enjoyed what I got but never had the level of success I wanted. So far, it's amazing how the stuff comes up in an Earthbox. It's sort of like gardening's equivalent of the Weber Smokey Mountain, yeah, you could do the same in a hole in the ground for free, or you could spend a lot more and get a fancier setup, but it's pretty perfectly optimized as a relatively inexpensive setup that takes up little space in a city backyard and produces great results for the size and cost. So I'd think about getting one and playing with it a little before this season is out, get some late summer lettuce at least.

I haven't put up pictures for a while so here's where mine stands. Two boxes of tomatoes, one has a healthy basil plant growing between, the other had an oregano plant that didn't make it, so I just replaced it with some winter savory Carolyn Berg (aka Mrs. Hat) gave me. I rigged together a very makeshift, lazy-gardener system of rods and pantyhose to support them, I may just let the plants dangle off my balcony or something if they outgrow it. I realize I basically have the trailer park version compared to the neat rows some of you have built.



My strawberry plants continue to grow, though it looks like actual strawberries are past. I guess I'll just leave them for the winter and see if they come back next year? Since usually strawberries do better after a year? Should I bring it inside, ultimately? The peas, on the other hand... have peapods! That's pretty exciting and I couldn't resist just biting into one right now, even though I may have wiped out 10% of my visible crop. But they tasted great, only about ten times as much flavor as any pea I ever had. I suspect, though, that growing peas and strawberries together may turn out to have been a bad idea, since they both like to send runners or vines out and get all tangled up together. Oh well.



P.S. Seems like I ought to link to my Sky Full of Bacon podcast about sub-irrigated container gardening somewhere in this thread, since it was inspired by it, even if I've talked about it elsewhere.

My strawberry plants continue to grow, though it looks like actual strawberries are past. I guess I'll just leave them for the winter and see if they come back next year? Since usually strawberries do better after a year? Should I bring it inside, ultimately?

These are perennials, which come back year after year. As their crown enlarges, so does the volume of strawberries a plant can produce. Being in a container is different than being in the ground, so I defer to someone with container experience on how to over-winter.* If it were in the ground, then mulch it when dormant and forget about it until spring.

*I will guess putting it in the garage might be adequate, though yours is detached which is yet another variable.

Your comparison to the WSM was just what I was thinking when I read your narrative even before you said the golden words.

Regards,

Thanks to all for the feedback. I'm thinking earth boxes won't happen for me this year as re-finishing the deck, replacing all the windows in our 1921 bungalow, ripping out our radiators and installing central air/heat, moving the stairs to our basement, and remodeling our basement are creating a chaos not condusive to gardening of any kind. However, I find this thread inspiring and very informative - please keep posting pics. When things settle down, (hopefully by next Spring,) I'm going to get myself a couple of earth boxes!

Cathy2 wrote:*I will guess putting it in the garage might be adequate, though yours is detached which is yet another variable.

Container plants rarely survive the winter out of doors unless we have an extremely mild season. If the roots freeze, that's it.

I would mulch well and put the earthboxes in the garage. Even there it is iffy if we get below-zero temps. You will also have to keep the soil from drying out.

Another solution I've seen that works for some is to bury the containers in the ground and then mulch, but it's a lot of digging.

Since we're on this topic (not that it will be an issue for months), I'm thinking I could just stick the strawberry one, or all three, in my cellar which is pretty chilly throughout the winter. (Things definitely freeze solid in the garage at some point.) It may not be an ideal cold temperature for wintering but any other choice will surely freeze the roots.

Mike G--

I'd also throw a tarp or something over it to keep it in the dark. I've overwintered stuff this way before.

Geo

BruceF,

Did you ever get your automatic watering system working with the hudson valve setup? I'm interested in doing the same and would love to here how it worked and how to get started with it.

Thanks!

Wheattoast wrote:BruceF,

Did you ever get your automatic watering system working with the hudson valve setup? I'm interested in doing the same and would love to here how it worked and how to get started with it.

Thanks!

I'm not sure if Bruce checks this often but I can attest that it is working well. Bruce, another roof gardener, and I have a blog (actually Bruce is heading the way as my personal time isn't allowing me to contribute much to this point) here: http://greenroofgrowers.blogspot.com/.

You can contact him through there and check to see his progress. I believe there is a quick post about the aws on there as well.

I'll email him to let him know to check here as well.

First tomato of the year! It's an Early Girl hybrid and it's also for dinner.

Quick update: tomatoes are growing like mad but I don't like my staking system. The plants just got too big and heavy. I'm building a different prototype this fall. Peppers doing really well too but not all fully ripe - three varieties of chili and three bell. Strawberries are getting bigger with the plant and tastier too. Japanese Eggplant is abundant and the Italian variety is starting come in, I think I have about six on there right now. I was going to let my zucchini die due to some powdery mildew but new shoots keep coming up along with new fruit. Why waste it? The cucumber in the box with the zucchini is just vines and flowers - I don't have enough bees to pollinate so no fruit (probably won't be doing that again - at least in the same box). Lettuces are out and the broccoli bolted so it's out. I'm planting a late tomato (two actually - hillbilly and purple cherokee) and some bush beans for the fall. Still not too late. Trying to figure out if I'll take the zucchini out and plant some more broccoli/cauliflower or some spinach/lettuces. Not sure but will keep you posted.

Hope everyone's garden is going well...

Thanks Tyrus -

I'm heading out of town in late August and am trying to get some sort of automatic watering system working by then.

My garden is doing pretty well too. Learned a lot this year! I have had a few problems to deal with; most notably blossom end rot on the tomatoes and a lack of pollination on my peppers. Since I only have a 12' x 5' space to do this all in, I need to focus on the heavy producers. It seems most pepper plants are more trouble than they are worth to me. Ditto with strawberries. My tomatoes, beans, zucchini, lettuce, beets, herbs, radishes, and patty pan squash however are producing an amazing amount of food for my wife and me. Still hope to meet up with you guys sometime and see your setups!

Here are a few current pics:

The main SIP setup. from left to right Zucchini/Patty pan, lots of different types of non-productive peppers (heh), Brandywine tomatoes, Purple and green Bush beans:


Patty pans:



Brandywine tomatoes:



Beans:



Or you can see the progress from this year here if you're interested:
http://flickr.com/photos/wheattoast/col ... 288736400/

The garden looks great. I'm surprised by the peppers, mine have a ton of little ones on there. Strawberries have been strange. I have the ever-bearing variety and the get bigger with each wave. If it was mild enough this winter, they'd be really good next year but since it's not possible, I'll be swapping that out with something else soon.

For BER in the SIPs (self irrigated planters), try mixing 1 cup of hydrated lime with 1 gallon of water and pour that into the reservoir. It usually affects only the first fruits but the mixture will help.

Keep on top of your squash. A culprit that has come up is powdery mildew. It'll look like white spots on the leaves but can really take your plant apart if not treated. I've used a TBSP of baking soda mixed with 32 ounces of water with a few drop of liquid dish soap and hit the plant a few times a week. Bruce uses a mixture of skim milk and water, which is probably better since the baking soda may have accelerated the yellowing of some of the bad leaves. Either way, there are new green shoots everywhere and it's kind of nice to see it come back.

Bruce's aws could work nicely; hopefully you guys can hook up and discuss.

I posted that same solution for BER earlier in this thread and it worked great!

I believe the pepper issue is that I didn't know anything about the N-P-K ratios in fertilizers when I first started, and I just grabbed a bag of Miracle grow organic fertilizer. I've since come to realize that its 7-1-2 which is great for greens but not so much for the blooms. So now I'm left with some huge, very green, but unproductive pepper plants. I'm feeding them now with a no-nitrogen liquid fertilizer every so often so hopefully that will balance it out a bit.

After a year off, I'm back to Earthboxes this summer. I also use a similar set-up from Gardener's Supply. I have flowers in one, herbs in another, and two tomatoes in the third.

Per the overwintering, I have been surprised that mint has overwintered 3 of 4 years. Last year it didn't make it, however, so I planted new. The creeping thyme from last year, however, did overwinter. Since I didn't let it go to seed, overwintering is the only possibility.

I've tried to think of other ways I could enhance the overwintering. I have no garage, being in a condo. So, they are either inside...or out. That's it. I thought about seeing if putting some kind of insulating fabric around the outside of the pot would help any, but am not sure if it would do anything at all.

Three of four years the whiteflies have literally killed my tomatoes and my yield went from "Holy cow, look at all those blossoms" to "Crap, we only had twelve ripe tomatoes before the plant succumbed." Hence me not doing anything last year. So far this year I have no whiteflies, but I check daily and have some yellow sticky thingees just in case so I know to be sad soon. I am getting a little light yellowing of some bottom leaves on one plant and what looks like rust on a few leaves. Besides immediately removing the leaves, I've done nothing else (not even look to see what might be causing either problem).

Oddly, the Old German plant is huge but has very few actual tomatoes (maybe 8), while the other one (can't remember - some heirloom with small tomatoes and very fine small leaves) has about 40 tomatoes on it. I thought it might be a fertilizer issue, but I used the same one (it's the same container). Huh. I haven't ever grown the Old Germans...they might just be poor producers. I bought late instead of starting my own, so didn't have many options.

I had white flies earlier this year and got rid of them in 24 hours by spraying a mixture of vegetable oil, soap, and water. I've heard that you don't need the oil but it worked well. The only problem is that i think when it got hot, the oil on the leaves may have had a negative effect on browning the leaves a bit but overall, the tomatoes are still really healthy and the top leaves are still green. It's an organic solution that works really well - so if you get them again, give it a try.

Quick update as it's Friday late afternoon. Tomatoes are starting to come in nicely. The plants themselves aren't looking too good but that's either due to the staking system or the vegetable oil/soap mixture I used on them to kill the white flies - or a combination of both. Working on a new staking system for some new tomato plants I planted last week. I know, it's late but they were just sitting at a friends house, looking for a home. Plus, it gives me a reason to experiment with staking systems for next year.

Eggplant is looking good but not sure when to pick. Peppers are looking good as well. Zucchini refuses to die and that's not all bad. Onions are big and I've planted a few more - maybe when it's cold, I can harvest a couple of smaller onions. I also planted beans last week - another leftover from a friend. Who know's? Strawberries will come out next week and go into a friend's suburban garden plot. He can bury them for next winter and enjoy some bigger and better strawberries than I had this year. Herbs are going like mad, maybe I'll rethink putting them in an EB next year - it may be too much of a good thing.

Here are some pics:

I thought that I’d share my experiences as well. This is my first year trying gardening with self-watering containers. The maple trees surrounding my yard have been growing at such a rate that this year the only consistently sunny place in my yard is on my patio. I’m using the containers from Gardener’s Supply Company. I didn’t plant my containers until Memorial Day weekend. I decided to plant many of the same varieties of plants that had in my ground garden last year and compare how they performed in the different environments. Well, right now, it seems that the containers are magic. The difference in the size of the plants and the number of fruits is amazing. Here’s the setup on my back patio.


Each container has a 4 gallon reservoir. Right now, the containers with the tomatoes have to be filled everyday. The containers with the peppers need to be filled every one to two days.

I have four tomato plants (Sweet Million, Bush Goliath (together), Brandywine, Bush Celebrity (together)), 5 peppers (2 Super Shepards, 2 Sweet Melrose, 1 Lemon Drop), 3 parsley plants, 1 Italian basil (don’t know which type), several Thai Holy Basil plants, and one sunflower from my neighbor.


Here’s my container with the Sweet Million and Bush Goliath. I decided to put one determinant and one indeterminate tomato in each container. For a sense of scale, the cage is about 52”. From the top of the container to the top of the Sweet Million is over 6.5’.

The thing I’m most excited about is the Brandywine. Last year I got one tomato before the plant turned yellow and did nothing the rest of the year despite my best efforts. However, that one tomato was the best tasting tomato my husband and I have ever had. This year, the Brandywine is growing like crazy and packed with tomatoes the size of my fist.


My peppers have surprised me the most. My super Shepard peppers are just under 4’ tall. They never got more than 2’ tall last year in the garden. Also, the larger leaves are the size of my open hand. If I had known they would get so big, I would have gotten cages for them since they have completely overpowered the stakes I used. I followed the advice in this thread to pinch off all the first flowers of my peppers. I had never done this before. I was surprised by the difference it made. All my pepper plants tripled- quadrupled in size, sending branches equivalent in size to the original plant out of lower branch junctions. This has made staking difficult, but has dramatically increased the number of flowers, and recently fruit, on each plant.

I’ve been inspired by tyrus’ and others’ posts and am now thinking of other plants to try next year.

All the best,
Jen

Question: are you noticing a flavor difference? I ask, because I bought some farmer's market greenhouse tomatoes, and they were about as flavorful as the grocery-store ones. I'm curious how much of an influence the, well, terroir of the boxes has. From just the looks of what you've produced, tyrus, it doesn't seem like you're making any sacrifices.

These boxes use real dirt, though, yes? - unlike the Aerogarden about which I have similar curiosity.

I don't perceive a flavor difference between the SIP tomatoes and the in-ground tomatoes. They are grown in potting mix which is a little different than potting soil or regular soil, since the water has to wick up from the reservoir. The mix is looser than dirt but the flavor is the same. The mix is typically something like Sphagnum Peat and/or Coir - usually 70-80%, with the balance some combination of Vermiculite, Perlite and even Carbon (with the emphasis on the Vermiculite). I think the flavor has a lot to do with being in the sun all day, rather than in a green house - though I'm not an expert in this area. I do agree that the greenhouse tomatoes are not very good and if mine tasted like that, I would stop growing them immediately.

Many people say that the SIPs out-produce the in-ground variety but I don't have anything to compare to. What's nice is that the potting mix is always moist since the plastic cover prevents evaporation. I've been very happy with the results and I'm to the point of handing tomatoes over to friends and family now.

Here's yesterday's harvest:

I harvested my first brandywine tomatoes yesterday and I would have to concur that they taste nothing like Greenhouse tomatoes! I'm so excited for more. I got 2 yesterday and sliced them and ate with a little sea salt immediately.

JenDath, your tomatoes look beautiful!

Brandywine, in my opinion, are indeed delicious.

I think taste is a combination of variety and growing conditions, but not related to the soil of in ground vs. in the container. For years I had 3 acres and gardened in ground, each year growing many terrific items. Now, in a condo with a 20 by 8 deck, I use containers and grow much less. I've noticed no difference in yield between the garden or the container. My only difference is that I am not able to utilize birds, spiders, snakes, lacewings, ladybugs, etc. to help me in preventing any pest problems.

Per taste, I started, as a child, growing typcial tomatoes as it was mostly what Burpee sold. As an adult, I found my way to heirlooms in the late 80's. Once I'd tasted the first one, I was hooked. Each year I'd try two or three new varieties and grow one or two honored ones. Over time, I learned that the taste is very variety dependent. A Black Russian tastes completely different than a Costoluto Genovese. Growing them differs, too, as they are not necessarily resistant to tomato diseases, as the hybrids are. Regardless of the variety, what a joy to taste them each summer, to try a new kind and see what it brings in taste and other qualities.

Nicely said, Views Askew.

I just harvested some of my tomatoes and some basil, so it's time to revive an old LTHForum feature...

The LTHForum Caprese Salad Index

Case Number: MG2008-1
Date consumed: 7/28/08
Location: Home
Tomato Score: 5.0
Wonderful homegrown tomatoes, bursting with flavor.
Mozzarella Score: 3.5
Trader Joe's Mandara bufala mozzarella, still the best deal on real bufala in town.
Basil Score: 4.0
Nicely fragrant genovese basil.
Discretionary Points: 5.0
Sheer DIY satisfaction.
FINAL SCORE: 17.5/20

For those of you with tomato harvesting experience, at what point do you pick them? I thought that I would want to leave the tomatoes on the vine until they were fully ripe in order to maximize flavor. However, I've also heard that in really hot weather that it's better to pick the tomatoes before they're fully ripe and let them finish ripening inside because the tomatoes can get overheated and damaged by the heat. My first large tomato is turning orange-red, but I don't know when to pick it, especially with the recent high temps. I would appreciate any comments or advice anyone has.

Thanks,
Jen

Mike G wrote:Discretionary Points: 5.0
Sheer DIY satisfaction.

Had I not just sampled my own first tomatoes of the season, I would say this 5 discretionary pts was too much - But man, there is something special about eating a perfect tomato that you grew yourself. Feel proud!

JenDath wrote:For those of you with tomato harvesting experience, at what point do you pick them? I thought that I would want to leave the tomatoes on the vine until they were fully ripe in order to maximize flavor. However, I've also heard that in really hot weather that it's better to pick the tomatoes before they're fully ripe and let them finish ripening inside because the tomatoes can get overheated and damaged by the heat. My first large tomato is turning orange-red, but I don't know when to pick it, especially with the recent high temps. I would appreciate any comments or advice anyone has.

I've never heard of harvesting early to protect a tomato from heat. Not saying it's incorrect, but I've never had any problems leaving them on the vine till they are just right. Maybe a cracked skin or 2, but nothing serious.

JenDath wrote:For those of you with tomato harvesting experience, at what point do you pick them? I thought that I would want to leave the tomatoes on the vine until they were fully ripe in order to maximize flavor. However, I've also heard that in really hot weather that it's better to pick the tomatoes before they're fully ripe and let them finish ripening inside because the tomatoes can get overheated and damaged by the heat. My first large tomato is turning orange-red, but I don't know when to pick it, especially with the recent high temps. I would appreciate any comments or advice anyone has.

Thanks,
Jen

I've been picking them everyday now and pick mostly ripe but some that can last a day or two on the ledge. Although I may be wrong, I feel when they're on the vine, they ripen much faster than on my window sill. So I like to space them out a little.

I can't agree more about picking and eating your own tomatoes. The BLT has never been better...

Thank you Wheattoast and Tyrus!

Jen

Thanks for all the great information on the Earthboxes, and to all the urban farmers, congrats on your incredible harvests! We have been following the updates all summer and had a quick question: How important is the constant direct sunlight? We live in a classic Chicago two-flat with a deck above the entry way, and the space is the perfect size for a (potentially large) number of the boxes. We face west and the space gets direct light from about 2:00PM on, which concerns us just a bit. Any thoughts?

Podgers wrote:Thanks for all the great information on the Earthboxes, and to all the urban farmers, congrats on your incredible harvests! We have been following the updates all summer and had a quick question: How important is the constant direct sunlight? We live in a classic Chicago two-flat with a deck above the entry way, and the space is the perfect size for a (potentially large) number of the boxes. We face west and the space gets direct light from about 2:00PM on, which concerns us just a bit. Any thoughts?

From what I've been told, most vegetables will need a minimum of around 6 hours of direct sun light; however some benefit from shade and cool temps (think lettuce, spinach, kale). Some peppers may work as well since many of mine get sun scold from the direct heat. If you have a SIP (sub irrigated planter like the Earthbox), it's still not too late to try some lettuce, kale, and spinach for the fall. I'm planting mine tomorrow. I would also think some herbs may work and maybe a cherry or other small tomato could work as well (although it's a bit late to try tomatoes this year).

Start with one or two boxes and see what works. You can always expand. Btw - a few of us have started a blog (http://greenroofgrowers.blogspot.com/) to discuss SIP gardening. You may be able to pick up more info there as well. To the moderators: if its inappropriate to post about a blog, please feel free to remove. Thanks.

It's been a while since I posted something new here so I thought I'd throw something on the board. Up until now, I've had a really nice garden - tomatoes have been / are great and I had planted another two plants in mid July so those should start to ripen soon, peppers are doing really well, string beans from about 45 days ago are being harvested and enjoyed, eggplant is unreal, onions did really well, and the herbs are out of control. Earlier in the year, I harvested lettuce and broccoli and will try some more lettuce, spinach, and kale for the fall.

At first, I felt my strawberries were a waste of time - too small and not enough for a meal - but now, I'm on my third round (ever-bearing) and I'm harvesting about a 1/2 pint every 2-3 days. I heard that I should have trimmed back the flowers and runners early in the year in prep for this time of year but somethings you have to see before taking the advice. Here are a few pics:

Well, what you say you're getting from your strawberries every few days is probably more than I got all summer. No idea why but while they keep popping one out, every once in a while, it's a rare moment when we have three at one time ready to eat.

Worse yet, the strawberries just really weren't that good. Very tart, not all that much flavor. Likewise the peas didn't really work. I got a small quantity and then I think the strawberries overgrew and killed them.

So this morning, during a lull in the rain, I ripped them all out (overwintering questions solved!) and rebuilt the dirt and fertilizer layer in the box, then put on my last remaining shower cap and cut spaces for lettuce. Since that was such a hit and so tasty and healthy, I figured go for one last shot of the wonderful lettuce and arugula. Meanwhile the tomatoes continue to grow, although you can really tell the difference between a hot day (when they grow like mad) and cool ones when they stop dead.

I took the best-yielding of the strawb plants and planted them in my yard. Probably not enough sun, probably the kids will tromp them or the squirrels will eat them, but whatever. They have a chance to do better next year, if they don't, no great loss.

Very happy overall with my EBs, but not everything is always going to be a success.