Antonius wrote:... But my note was in response to what JeffB said and he was making a comparison between Chicago, where there is something of a sausage-pizza culture, and most of the rest of the country with its pepperoni-pizza culture. One point was that there is a lot of good Italian sausage to be had here and I concur with Jeff's claim 100%. Lots and easier to find than in lots of other places in the country.

Driving home tonight, I heard an ad for Pizza Hut's new "Chicago-Style Sausage" pizza. Did the sleeping giant awake? Will America foresake salty orange-hued slices for lip-smacking sausage rich with "black pepper, garlic and fennel" (as advertised by PH)? I'm not going to be the one to test it, that's for sure ... but it's an interesting coincidence.

JimInLoganSquare wrote:Driving home tonight, I heard an ad for Pizza Hut's new "Chicago-Style Sausage" pizza. Did the sleeping giant awake? Will America foresake salty orange-hued slices for lip-smacking sausage rich with "black pepper, garlic and fennel" (as advertised by PH)? I'm not going to be the one to test it, that's for sure ... but it's an interesting coincidence.

I've long since abandoned the likes of chains like Pizza Hut to satisfy my thin-crust cravings (though Little Caesar's still makes some mean crazy bread). On occasion, however, friends and family will automatically order from the Hut to fill their cheese-topped needs, so I find myself eating their pies once more. Recently, I received a PH flyer in the mail advertising the latest concoction. Not surprisingly, I suggested the (Chicago-style) sausage when relatives next ordered from P-Hut (though I didn't get the thin crust I'd hoped for). The meatier pieces were definitely a step up from the miniscule pieces you might find otherwise, but it's hard to say the pizza as a whole was much improved. Maybe another tasting will better define the flavor. I guess the only thing left to do is combine that sausage with the "Big New Yorker" crust...

--The Snob

Good NYC pizza in Chicago? Flash: its the 21st century. the overwhelming majority of pizza in NYC these days is almost univerally BAD. "You can't go home again" is more true than I care to admit. Tasteless dough, cheap cheese--and far too much cheese, and on and on. That said, there remains some good legacy places, but you really really have to dig. And are you talking a great slice type place, or a great pie type place, while we're on the subject. Me, I like a slice place, as that's what I teethed on.

One slice place I'm particularly fond of is way out in Queens at the Nassau border (Center Pizza) at the intersection of the LIE and Little Neck Pkwy. I stopped in there not long ago and the pizza was absolutely unchanged from forty years ago. I asked the kid behind the counter how this could be. "My uncle" he said "He retired and I bought it from him. I do it exactly the same."

Antonius is absolutely correct in his elucidation re short dough, NYC style and Chicago style. NYC pizza dough has almost no oil whatsoever, while a 'short dough' refers to the flour/oil ratio (think muffins as the most eggregious example of a short dough). Of course, muffins are big in the midwest (and NYC too). Maybe that partially explains the attrition of availability of good NYC pizza.

And sausage: I agree with all that just as bad sausage is hard to find in Chicago its the rule everywhere else. A no brainer, and a constant revelation everytime for this visitor.

Proto-typical NYC pizza crust has these ingredients, and no more:
High gluten flour
Water
Fresh Yeast.
Salt
Scant olive oil
Malt.

Dough comments:
--flour. All Trumps High Gluten (tm) probably familiar to the bread bakers among us. More expensive than any other bread flour. 14% gluten minimum. Bakers refer to this as 'strong flour' because of the increased difficulty of working the dough for gluten development during mixing. Its made from 100% red winter wheat.
--Water at 65 F. Why 65 F? You have to knead the dough sufficiently to develop the glutens. Typically, you knead with a dough hook in the mixer until the dough reaches about 95 F. The thirty degree temp rise gives you about the right working time in a 60 or 80 quart mixer. You can start at a lower or higher temp, but your results will be poor--either not enough sour development during aging or excess puffiness if your finish temp is too high. Forget the BS about needing that admittedly superior NYC water piped down from the Catskills watershed--Queens and Brooklyn have been home to fabulous pizza yet have $hitty water drawn from wells (native speaking here--I always giggle at Manhattan restaurants when the table orders bottled water even though what comes from the tap is the best in the world!).
--Fresh yeast. this is fresh cake yeast. Its not so easy to get anymore. You have to buy it by the case, and use it while its still fresh. Budweiser is the only source left I think. This has real taste. Easier to work with, procure and store is powdered yeast--which is virtually taste neutral; or powdered yeast with chemicals which allow a given amount of flour to absorb a greater ratio of water yielding more dough at a decreased cost per dough ball with a faint but definitely nasty aftertaste.
-Olive Oil. We always added just a bit, (for workability). About 5 oz in a 20 lb bite of flour. It was so little that I often wondered while mixing why bother. But I followed the recipe on faith.
--Malt. THE SECRET INGREDIENT. Relatively expensive. This is actually a 'malt product', it comes mixed with flour. It gives the crust that wonderful browned color. Does the same for bagels. You can use sugar to get a similar, but not as good, color. But sugar won't give you the 'tam'--taste or flavor.

These are the recipe secrets, now you just have to figure out the weights and you are good to go. Of course, there's still a lot more to it, probably most important allowing the doughballs to age a minimum of 30 hours to achieve maturation of the sour for flavor but no more than 48 hours. After 48 hours the yeast dies off and the dough goes flat--literally.

All that said, the best pizza has one thing in common with the best word processor--its the one you already know and love.

This may be a classic case of loving what you grew up with, but I never had any bad sausage pizzas back when I lived in Boston, except for the very few that threw on sausage slices rather than ground sausage. I don't dislike pepperoni but get it only when it's the choice of a friend I'm splitting the pizza with, as it often turns out too greasy for me, and besides, I like sausage better anyway (was no stranger to my mom's and aunt's homemade sausages as a kid). I'm not disapproving of our local sausages here by any stretch of the imagination -- just saying that Boston is at least as good a sausage town IMO. (One pizza parlor in Somerville, don't remember the name but it's in Ball Square, had way too many types of sausage for anyone to order a sausage pizza -- along with standard Italian, they also offered kielbasa, linguica, and a few others. Soooo good.

Steve Drucker wrote:All that said, the best pizza has one thing in common with the best word processor--its the one you already know and love.

Steve D:

Well put. And many thanks for the detailed discussion of NY style crust.

I also must agree -- sadly -- that a lot of the old little unpretentious, old fashioned pizza parlours of the metro-NY are gone. But every once in a while there's a little good news on that front. A couple of years back, according to my brother, a little place opened in Hackensack (I'm pretty sure, but if not, in a neighbouring town) run by a guy who had immigrated from southern Italy. It seems he does a pretty good rendition of pizza alla napoletana but in a completely non-upscale setting and without upscale prices. I've been intending to go there but the visits to the old country are never quite long enough...

Antonius

While it is harder these days to find a really good slice in Manhattan (whereas when I was coming up as a lad in the early 80's, it was a given that any random pizza place in the 5 boroughs, most of northern NJ, or Nassau/Suffolk/Rockland Counties would be good) the outer boroughs for the most part keep it real, as the kids say. Just last month I was in NYC, and, after parking my car in Sheepshead Bay (southern Brooklyn) to take the Subway to Midtown, passed by the first random pizza place (Luigi's Pizza on Avenue U and 17th St.) and caught the smell. MMM, that ambrosial scent of fresh Sicilian pizza wafting out the door. I go in, plunk down my $1.50 (!!!) and get a slice of heaven - a piece of thick square Sicilian that took me right back to when I was 5 years old - the crunchy-bottomed, soft-topped crust, sweet olive oil, zippy tomato sauce, chewy, milky cheese, and a little oregano and hot pepper flakes to top it off. That and a lemon ice afterwards and I almost needed a nap. This is a pizza place one can still reliably find in most neighborhoods in Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island, and, maybe to a lesser extent, the Bronx (though I haven't ventured up there for pizza in years, the last time proved fruitful, along Allerton Ave.). Many of the pizza places in Manhattan are more concerned with sheer turnover or the recent trend of having 9,000 varieties of "gourmet" pies (yellow bell pepper, artichoke, goat cheese, eggplant, etc..) at the expense of not having one piece of simple, GOOD, old-fashioned margherita. According to my bandleader (a New Yorker from the 50's and 60's) pizza didn't even start to feature toppings in earnest until the early 60's and then it was only mushroom. Only later did pepperoni, sausage, meatball, anchovy, etc... begin to turn up. Frankly, I'm glad it did, cause a Sicilian pizza with meatball and onion is my favorite. This is going to sound terrible, but it's true - most pizza places in Manhattan (and, indeed, many in the outer boroughs as well) are run by Latinos. I'm sure someone along the way showed them how to make pizza, but it's obvious that the same care and the same tastes aren't going into the finished product. I hate to say it, but Mexicans can't make pizza. A journey to the numerous Mexican-run pizza places in Chicago are also evidence of this (most notable offenders being Sonny's on Western and Fullerton and Naty's on Chicago Ave. I'm not quite as forgiving as Antonius, who says he can enjoy Chicago-style thin crust when it's done well. I can't. These two places, though... the shit should have warning labels on it.). Now, you tell me that the chef who runs Ixcapuzalco is going to make pizza, I'll try it. But Mexican baked goods just don't do a goddamn thing for me (hey, let's take a bread roll, sprinkle sugar on it, and call it dessert!! Huh?????) and the lack of quality at Mexican run pizza places is evidence of this, at least according to my tastes. Just as I would not want Luigi making my Bistec a la Tampiquena, Jose should keep his hands off of my a-pizz. Just as bad, coincidentally, are the numerous pizzas made by the large Brazilian population in Northern Jersey, around Elizabeth, Newark and Jersey City. Yecch. As for the sausage question, Salsicce his own, as they say in Godfather 3. Chicago has really, really good Italian sausage and it's my topping of choice. Which is why Sicilia is my favorite pizza in this town - inexpensive and bakery style with homemade (made by the old man in the back at least 3 times a week, and available by the pound for something like $2.19) salsicce. Very, very good. As for the question of having the sausage in chunks or sliced - it's almost always in chunks, but the little place in Jersey that was my neighborhood pizza joint for years (Scotto's) used to slice the sausage. They used to do it very thin, though, so that it would crisp up and caramelize in the oven, making it really quite delicious. Their Neapolitan was only decent, but their Sicilian pie was magnificent. My party or "dinner" pizza of choice was the Sicilian (one size only) with sausage, which got the well-done treatment no matter what, cause of the extra baking time needed by the thicker pizza. As for the breakdown of the NYC crust - wow. That's intense. I didn't realize the malt factor; I'll have to try that next time I get the bug to make dough.

Rebbe

By the way, Spa Girl, you ever try any of the places we mentioned? Any luck? Just Curious.

Rebbe

hungryrabbi wrote:As for the question of having the sausage in chunks or sliced - it's almost always in chunks, but the little place in Jersey that was my neighborhood pizza joint for years (Scotto's) used to slice the sausage. They used to do it very thin, though, so that it would crisp up and caramelize in the oven, making it really quite delicious.

Wait. There's more...

Think of your favorite pizza place with the slice and the lemon ice. The sole cooking appliance is the oven. The oven is where everything is cooked (no need to cook the sauce, but that's a different post). The sausage is placed in a hotel pan with a little water, covered, and baked. Then it's cooled and sliced very thin on the slicer and refrigerated.

To place on the pizza, its built best (both for economy and flavor) in this sequence: dough, sauce, sausage, then cheese. And not too much cheese--although the planned paucity of mozzarella is more than made up for with a healthy handful of good grated cheese. The balanced topping of cheese (not the leathery layer all too common now) keeps the thin sliced pre-cooked sausage from drying out completely. btw--ditto pepperoni.

If the sausage is chunked (likewise pre-cooked/poached in the oven, then crumbled by hand--an abjectly disgusting task that can turn the most resolute carnivore into a tofu sucking fool) not sliced, its also best set directly atop the sauce, as the remaining sausage grease mixes with the the sauce yielding a very pleasing flavor.

hungryrabbi wrote:I'm not quite as forgiving as Antonius, who says he can enjoy Chicago-style thin crust when it's done well.

Rebbe:

What can I say, I am by nature, an agreeable and forgiving guy...

( )

After 15 years, I have adapted and can indeed enjoy a well-made Chicago-style pizza, focussing my desire, for example, on the sausage or the overall combined flavour sensation, and suppressing my dissatisfaction with the pastry-like dough.

You mention the numerous good, humble pizza joints in the outer boroughs but inner Long Island and North Jersey are just as much integral parts of the same 'pizza nation'. But, of course, elsewhere in the northeast one finds concentrations of good pizzerie, as BobS would surely agree.

I spent a number of years in Ithaca, New York and must say that the pizza offerings there were really quite amazing for a town of that size. There were several places that made excellent, basic New York style pies but in addition, a couple of them also made special pies on request that were very much more in the Italian (Neapolitan, Roman) style.* There was also a little Greek joint that made pizzas in their own "Greek style" -- pretty tasty they were too.

Since this is the "Eating out in Chicago Forum", I'll bring this back to that topic, tying into the discussion of pizzerie run by non-Italians:

I know of the one Albanian pizzerie up on Kedzie; are there other Albanian pizza places? Any Greek pizza places? Especially if the style of pie made is in some basic way out of the ordinary, I'd be very interested in hearing about them.

Antonius

* At least one of these was run by a recent immigrant from Italy but little tiny Ithaca had its own Italian immigrant community and even a small 'Little Italy' (northeast side, on the flats) which was comprised almost wholly of people from the area around Fondi and Sperlonga, southernmost Lazio, just over the border from where my family is from in Campania. We speak the same dialect and eat the same half-Roman, half-Neapolitan cuisine.

Antonius wrote:I spent a number of years in Ithaca, New York and must say that the pizza offerings there were really quite amazing for a town of that size.

No kidding. A granfalloon--go big red? Hollister Hall. Class of '77.

Much more, M U S T stay on thread. Hopefully we can match tales at a chow event sometime.

Old Chicago on 79th and Cottage Grove is run by a Greek and is hands down my favorite pizza in Chicago. I don't know if he really brings too much of a Greek flavor to the pizza, though. The deep dish is the way to go, but the thin is good as well. If I moved to New York, this would be the only pizza I would miss.

Hi,

You are in very good company in your admiration of Old Chicago Pizza. RST posted on Old Chicago in December, 2002.

After finally going to another Chowist pizza mecca: Vito & Nick's, I am primed to visit Old Chicago sometime soon.


Old Chicago Pizzeria & Ice Cream
742 East 79th Street
Chicago, IL 60619
773-873-7428

Pizzas take 45 minutes to bake. Do call to order ahead of time. They do have slices at $1.95 (deep dish, one topping).

&&&

Vito & Nick's
8435 S Pulaski Rd
Chicago
773-735-2050

He had ice cream at the old location in Englewood but not on 79th. As to slices, you there are usually 3 varieties. Deep cheese, deep sausage and some variety of thin. When I order a whole deep dish I usually get a slice of thin also.

This thread has gotten crazy! I have gotten a bit overwhelmed by some of the responses and thought I would just refocus. When I originally posted I was just looking for some tips on places to get wedge cut (not having to ask for it), non-cracker crust pizza. I think some good locations have been listed and while I have not had a chance to try very many, I have tried a few.

First we tried Santullo's (on North near Damen). We liked this pizza a lot. My only complaint is the size - it is ENORMOUS! I love pizza and even I was sick of it by the time I made it thru the leftovers. The topping options are great and even on the huge pizza they don't short you with the toppings. I would definitely order again, but only if we have people over to help eat it. http://santullos.com/

Then we ordered from a bunch of places that we had flyers for. I didn't like any of them enough to remark on - they all the square cut slices and were cracker-crisp crusts. Not my taste.

Last week we ordered from Marcello's ( a Father and Son's restaurant) and this is our favorite small size pizza so far. We tried the NY style crust and it came cut in wedges. The toppings were tasty and plentiful - we will definitely order from them again. http://www.marcellos.com/

I guess that is it for now. I did try to go thru and make a list of the places that were mentioned in this thread. If I missed one let me know - we can just keep updating this list. Thanks for your help!

--------------

Cafe Luigi - 2548 N Clark
Gigio's - Broadway N of Wilson
Robey - Roscoe @ Damen
Caponie's - 3350 N Harlem
Vito's and Nick's
Marie's - W Lawrence
Lucky Vito's - 2171 N Milwaukee
Santullo's - North @ Damen
D'Amato's
Sicilia
Follia - 953 W Fulton
Palermo Bakery - 3317 N Harlem
Sicilian Bakery - 4632 N Cumberland
Pizza Metro - Division
Old Chicago - 79th @ Cottage Grove
Father and Son's / Marcello's - multiple locations
Aurelio's

Regarding one of your concerns (non-cracker style crust), I can't improve on any of the advice already provided. But I do have a solution for getting the pizza cut in wedges: request that they not cut the pie at all, then cut it yourself. This not only lets you cut the pie into the preferred wedge shape (my preference, too), but also gives you complete portion control. Have small, delicate hands (or mouth)? Cut em' an inch wide at the base! Feeling hungry? Cut 'em the width of an oak tree! Feeling polymorphously perverse? Cut with ribbed edges! It's all up to you, and it's also more fun, especially if you have one of those extra-large and heavy pizza cutting wheels (which is about the most-used piece of cutlery in the JiLS kitchen, second only to the paring knife). Now of course, unless you are particularly bold, this only works for carry-out or delivery pizza. But in the restaurant, I suppose if you ask nice, they'll cut the pie any shape you like. It's not like they've never seen a properly wedge-cut pizza, after all.

spa_girl wrote:Last week we ordered from Marcello's ( a Father and Son's restaurant) and this is our favorite small size pizza so far.

If Father and Son style pizza is what the NY expatriots are craving, I have to say I really don't get it. Whenever I've had it, it's been soggy and swimming in grease.

I wouldn't say for one second I have craved a Father and Son style pizza (i.e. please don't twist my words). When we ordered our pizza was also not soggy or greasy at all. BUT my point is it was one of the better pizzas I've had since moving here and if I want a simple, easy to eat pizza then so far this is the best I've found. I truly don't understand why "normal" (non-deep-dish) pizza is so exotic here and hard to find. I really miss regular pizza.

Spa Girl, you might try Pizza Broker, in the Loop just south and west of the Board of Trade. Basic East Coast setup: a bare little space with a huge stand mixer and an old fashioned pizza oven, two guys making dough and cooking pies, take out only, floppy slices without too much cheese. Close (but not exactly) to what one would get at a window in many places in NY or Philly, in my humble experience. Near other interesting options, too. Mainly, they are not using the pre-fab "pastry crust" that so many here seem to dislike.

BTW, I thought much of the theme of the thread thus far has been that Chicago has its own tradition of "not deep dish pizza." Clearly, not everyone likes it. But, as someone who's been around a little, I'll stick to my guns that Chicago's a good pizza town. You might make it to Aurelio's or Vito & Nick's to try especially good examples of "Chicago thin."

Outside Chicago and the well documented places in the Northeast, there are few examples of cities with pizza culture where visitors actually look forward to eating pizza. I was just in Toronto, a place brimming with i miei paesani, yet the pizza is infamously bad and well documented by those on the Toronto CH board.

As I recall, you moved here from the Bay Area, which is famously bereft of good pizza (despite a sizeable and old Italian population and otherwise superb food). For my own future reference (like three weeks from now) are there any places that are worth seeking out?

JeffB - thanks for the tips! I agree Chicago has *great* pizza in its style, I'm just looking for something different - my own idiosyncrasies probably. I am not implying I dislike Chicago style, just it isn't what I crave when I think of pizza - maybe my taste will change.

About SF - did you mean pizza or are you just looking for good restaurant tips? Feel free to PM me with specific q's - I'm happy to help. If you did mean pizza, we used to enjoy North Beach (actually has locations all over the city and they deliver) pizza for a good basic pizza. The SF clam pizza they serve is shockingly delicious and worth a try. Also a very adorable, well priced Italian spot with great food and wine for really great prices is Pazzia on 3rd St (near Moscone Center).

Pazzia: http://pazzia.citysearch.com/

North Beach Pizza: http://www.northbeachpizza.com/

I meant pizza, specifically. Thanks for the tip on North Beach Pizza. I never would have thought to try a place with a name like that, sort of like "Little Italy Pizza," but names obviously can be deceiving. (Especially so with the cutesy-named Thai places that hide secret menus.)

Especially so with the cutesy-named Thai places that hide secret menus.

I think you have a restauranteur who is trying to satisfy two different audiences: Thais who want authentic and Americans who are happy with Pad Thai. All it takes is for some Americans to berate and return food, which may be truly authentic. When most of your clientelle is somewhat uninformed and you have had a few negative and costly experiences, then the 2nd menu for Americans evolves.

In a recently translated menu, there were ant eggs as well as seasonal fried insects. If someone seeking Pad Thai saw that menu, it would not be too surprising if they walked out before ordering.

Chowist types make great efforts to pierce the veil. For instance, Gary's friend Bruce asking a Thai restaurant in Indiana for sticky rice and pork laab, which opened the door to other food opportunities. We have been fortunate to have people like Erik M translate menus which allowed a deeper exploration of the menu. Yet, I think we are unusual in our openess to food and related experiences. Most are quite content with the American menu.

Cathy2 wrote:

Especially so with the cutesy-named Thai places that hide secret menus.

Chowist types make great efforts to pierce the veil. For instance, Gary's friend Bruce asking a Thai restaurant in Indiana for sticky rice and pork laab, which opened the door to other food opportunities.

I'm also beginning to have some luck with El Paraiso, a Mexican Restaurant here in South Bend. I'm beginning to be known and now I just ask for the "Chef's Special" and I"m getting some great meals. When I pay the bill I ask the waitress to write down what I had in Spanish. Then I go look it up on the internet so I can post a write up about the meal. Language is a problem, but we are communicating through food.