"Secret" menus in Chinese, Thai, etc.

G Wiv wrote:

I learned of the Eater's Guide from a Trillin article as well, prompting me to run, not walk, to the University of Chicago bookstore for a copy.* With great anticipation, and not having opened the cover, I went to 'Little" Three Happiness and eagerly started translating wall signs. After about 25-minutes of utter perplexity I acquired the Like a Monkey looking at a donut** look common to the terminally confused.

stevez wrote:

I gave the Eaters Guide a shot a couple of years ago during its last printing. I read parts of it every day for over a month then gave up...

I'm opening a discussion here instead of continuing it in the KS Seafood thread, because the issue is a lot bigger than one restaurant. (And KS Seafood, according to some reports, is going to have an English translation of its Chinese menu available soon.)

I know some Anglos find the whole "secret" menu thing in the native Asian language fun, and I also know there are workarounds (some more effective than others--the Chinese Eater's Guide, from the sound of it, not being especially useful for some listers)--but I find the use of these menus exclusionary (and, I suspect, intended to be so). The most benign answer for why these menus exist is that the proprietors don't believe that their Anglo customers will be interested in some dishes, and don't want to trouble them or confuse them with choices of no relevance to them. But the truer answer, I suspect, is that there is an attitude among many owners of Asian restaurants that is like Louis Armstrong's comment when asked to define jazz: "If you don't know what it is, don't mess with it." I think these menus are a way of preserving special status and special privileges for those who do read the language. And I think the nationals who frequent these places appreciate the signal being sent. The trouble is, there's an undercurrent of hostility in it (not overt necessarily, but passive-aggressive) toward non-Asian-speakers/readers.

As I say, I know there are many here who think the non-English menu thing is all part of the experience--but I'm wondering if there are others, like me, who find it a royal pain in the ass, and worse, an unfriendly gesture. I'm sure the owners of these places appreciate business from Anglos, and are friendly to them--but if they really appreciated Anglos, I think they would make things a little easier for them. Perhaps some here can suggest reasons other than the (benign and less benign) ones I've thought of to explain the practice. I know one thing: I can think of no reason why the food in these places would be any less good than it is if it were described in English.

I'm going to assume a position that is somewhat new to me: some places with secret menus intend to exclude people like me, and that's not only okay, it's a practice with potentially positive collateral benefits.

There used to be a barber shop on Ridgeland Ave – it closed about 15 years ago. One day in the early 90s, I needed a haircut, so I walked over and strolled in. The clientele was 100% African American. I sat for about an hour, painfully aware of my interloper status, got no attention, and finally walked out, nodding to the stylist manning the last chair whose eyes seemed to say, “Oh, you figured it out?” I left wiser in the knowledge that the place apparently did not want my business, which was cool. There are other barbershops in Oak Park.

Barbershops (or so I’ve read) are nuclear social centers in many African American neighborhoods, a place for guys to hang out, shoot the breeze, say what they will. In a generally white neighborhood like Oak Park, such social centers for non-whites are not common. Having a schmo like me occupying a chair, and perhaps even inhibiting their conversation and camaraderie with my presence, was not appreciated, and I appreciate that.

Back to restaurants. I am coming to believe that places who wish to withstand the pressure of the larger culture (whatever culture that may be: white, English-speaking, etc.) might do well to keep the barriers high so that these ethnic enclaves can continue to cultivate, for instance, the cuisine that makes them unique in all the world. No doubt, some intrepid consumers will venture forth into these forbidden zones, accompanied by “native speakers” or maybe they’ll just order blindly and pray they get something they like, but by creating these barriers to entry, these powerful cultural centers (ethnic restaurants, barbershops, etc.) resist the diminution and dilution that may result from trying to serve a larger clientele. Just as importantly, they will provide an insulated zone of comfort for members of that culture who, understandably, may feel they have little opportunity to enjoy the unmoderated expression of their culture.

I’m not saying I like it when I can’t read a menu, or that I like being excluded, but I am coming to appreciate the impulse to remain separate. It’s quite likely that from those restaurants that resist an influx of “others,” some chefs will fly elsewhere to serve erstwhile “secret foods” to those outside the self-identified cultural group. And that’d be a good thing…for us on the outside.

Those few places that seem unfriendly to some of us may be preserving and incubating valuable culinary traditions for the exclusive enjoyment of their own communities. Why shouldn’t they? And who knows, if we’re nice, maybe we’ll get some, too.

Hammond

riddlemay,

If you are looking for other opinions, I'll say that based on my experience, you're wrong.

The existence of native-language menus* offering dishes that are not offered in English is cultural (primarily) and economic (secondarily).

The belief among many of these restaurant owners is that customers that are not of their nationality do not want to eat the same tastes as them. For the most part, they're right. Ask Tony at Lao Sze Chuan how many white people order sweet and sour chicken and how many order szechuan beef tendon.

Economically, many of these restaurants operate on low margins (many do not serve alcohol at all). An unhappy customer sending back a dish and wanting it removed from his check is lost revenue. And often times, when white customers order more obscure dishes, that's exactly what happens. Ask the owner of a Thai restaurant why they don't offer some of the dishes on their Thai language menu in english, and they'll likely say that they're afraid of unhappy customers sending back dishes.

When you do engage these restaurant owners and let them know that there are people who are interested in authentic flavors, they often times become interested, excited and enthusiastic. I have never met a chef, cook, or restaurant owner who became guarded or angry when you try and find out more about their cooking, culinary heritage, or authentic cuisine. Sure, wait-staff can become guarded when you ask about certain items, because they're essentially trained to--as soon as that dish of beef tendon gets sent back, the waitstaff will likely get scolded for serving it to the anglos in the first place. So, we go to the source, we tell the owners and cooks that we're interested in the world beyond crab rangoon and we, and others, would like to taste the true flavors of their homeland.

When I was a child, my family often went to a Chinese restaurant on Devon Ave. (long gone, I forget the name) for standard Ameri-Chinese dishes. The owner recognized us and was always friendly. When my father once started to inquire about what the owners eat in their own home (I remember his first question being "Do the Chinese ever eat bread?"), they were very excited that he was interested and they brought out a hand-written Chinese-language menu and started to translate it for him on the spot. Later, the owner invited us to her home where she cooked traditional bao. To me, this experience defines a typical sentiment among immigrant restaurateurs: They are cautious with what they serve out of economic fear and cultural belief. They are emboldened when people show an interest.

I have never once seen any evidence of the passive hostility you describe.

Regarding preserving dishes for "special-status", this does exist in practically every decent restaurant, English-speaking or not. Some dishes are just a pain to make, very expensive, or require specialized ingredients. They're simply not going to be offered on every menu handed out because it's simply not possible: you've just got to know about it. Off-menu items are a grand tradition in the restaurant business, reserving certain items for good customers, people "in the know", and friends of the owner. Heck, this even goes on at Walker Brothers.

As for translated menus being "part of the experience", in most cases it's exactly the opposite. People like Erik M. work hard translating menus so that the "secret" is no longer part of the experience, so that the authentic flavors and dishes are readily available to anyone and everyone. There is a widely-held desire in this community towards the promotion and celebration of authentic flavors and towards the removal of cultural barriers.

Best,
Michael

* I will not call them "secret" in this instance: Katy's Dumplings, for example, posts their Chinese items right on the wall and they'll tell you what anything is (hardly a secret) and many of the items on Sticky Rice's Thai menu overlap with their English-language menu.

Two interesting responses. One (from David) essentially agrees with my diagnosis of the situation (that it is an act of subtle hostility) but defends it, and makes a good case. The other (from Michael) disagrees with my diagnosis of the situation (saying, instead, that the issue is economic), and also makes a good case. Thank you.

Point of clarification, though. Michael, when you write:

As for translated menus being "part of the experience"...

--my point was that many listers here regard untranslated menus as part of the experience, part of the fun--I'm just not one of them. When you go on to say,

There is a widely-held desire in this community towards the promotion and celebration of authentic flavors and towards the removal of cultural barriers.

--I would assert that the removal of cultural barriers--a goal I promote along with you, wholeheartedly-- would be greatly helped, not hurt, by the availability of English-language menus and the elimination of "secret," exclusionary ones.

riddlemay wrote:Point of clarification, though. Michael, when you write:

As for translated menus being "part of the experience"...

--my point was that many listers here regard untranslated menus as part of the experience, part of the fun--I'm just not one of them.

Translated or untranslated, the experience is the food and people work hard to break down these barriers.

riddlemay wrote:When you go on to say,

There is a widely-held desire in this community towards the promotion and celebration of authentic flavors and towards the removal of cultural barriers.

--I would assert that the removal of cultural barriers would be greatly helped, not hurt, by the availability of English-language menus.

'

That's exactly my point. We don't want these flavors and tastes to be hidden. Many work hard to bring them forward and make them available.

And I'm not sure David is agreeing with you as much as he's putting himself in your shoes: "I'm going to assume a position that is somewhat new to me"

Best,
Michael

eatchicago wrote:And I'm not sure David is agreeing with you as much as he's putting himself in your shoes: "I'm going to assume a position that is somewhat new to me"

I read that as David saying that this is a position he's come to relatively recently. So I think he is agreeing with my premise. But David can clarify, if he wishes.

Another factor: some restaurant owners may not know enough English to translate all of their listings.

Amata wrote:Another factor: some restaurant owners may not know enough English to translate all of their listings.

Said a bit wordier here

The one cuisine that I think needs a menu makeover is Korean.
Frankly, they border on scary with pages of soups that have things in them I'd never put in a soup... and I end up with one of the handful of broiled dishes time and time again, with occasional forays into bibim bap or a myun dish.

I'm not saying it needs an upscaling like "braised monkfish in broth" with a $32 pricetag, but the descriptions at many of the restaurants seem aimed to keep the non-expats on the first page of the menu.

riddlemay wrote:

eatchicago wrote:And I'm not sure David is agreeing with you as much as he's putting himself in your shoes: "I'm going to assume a position that is somewhat new to me"

I read that as David saying that this is a position he's come to relatively recently. So I think he is agreeing with my premise. But David can clarify, if he wishes.

Just got back from lunch at Katy's Dumplings (which has, relatively recently I think, started providing an English translation of their Chinese menu).

I was trying on a new way of looking at this issue to see if it fit me; I think it does.

riddlemay wrote:I would assert that the removal of cultural barriers--a goal I promote along with you, wholeheartedly-- would be greatly helped, not hurt, by the availability of English-language menus and the elimination of "secret," exclusionary ones.

In line with my new thought-angle on this issue, I'm wondering if there isn't some value to barriers. The word "barrier" has negative connotations, of course, but might there not be some value in fighting to maintain one's cultural integrity by not allowing one's heritage to be homogenized? We all smirk when we hear the French Academy has banned the use of words and phrases like "truthiness" or "text me," and no one is going to praise parochial ethnophobia, but there seems to be value in having an institution or restaurant here and there holding the line against the neutralizing pressure of a more powerful and widespread culture that threatens to swallow one's own.

David Hammond wrote:

riddlemay wrote:

eatchicago wrote:And I'm not sure David is agreeing with you as much as he's putting himself in your shoes: "I'm going to assume a position that is somewhat new to me"

I read that as David saying that this is a position he's come to relatively recently. So I think he is agreeing with my premise. But David can clarify, if he wishes.

Just got back from lunch at Katy's Dumplings (which has, relatively recently I think, started providing an English translation of their Chinese menu).

I was trying on a new way of looking at this issue to see if it fit me; I think it does.

riddlemay wrote:I would assert that the removal of cultural barriers--a goal I promote along with you, wholeheartedly-- would be greatly helped, not hurt, by the availability of English-language menus and the elimination of "secret," exclusionary ones.

In line with my new thought-angle on this issue, I'm wondering if there isn't some value to barriers. The word "barrier" has negative connotations, of course, but might there not be some value in fighting to maintain one's cultural integrity by not allowing one's heritage to be homogenized? We all smirk when we hear the French Academy has banned the use of words and phrases like "truthiness" or "text me," and no one is going to praise parochial ethnophobia, but there seems to be value in having an institution or restaurant here and there holding the line against the neutralizing pressure of a more powerful and widespread culture that threatens to swallow one's own.

"fences make good neighbors" ?

ahhh...Sandburg

eatchicago wrote:Economically, many of these restaurants operate on low margins (many do not serve alcohol at all). An unhappy customer sending back a dish and wanting it removed from his check is lost revenue. And often times, when white customers order more obscure dishes, that's exactly what happens. Ask the owner of a Thai restaurant why they don't offer some of the dishes on their Thai language menu in english, and they'll likely say that they're afraid of unhappy customers sending back dishes.

I find the varying points of view on the reasons for untranslated menus interesting, and the above raises a question: Do many [most] people go into a restaurant featuring a cuisine that is not fully familiar to them, order something they don't recognize because it looks 'interesting', and then have the gall to send it back because they didin't like it?

Seems to me that if you order something you're unfamiliar with and you don't like it, it's beholden on you to pay for the dish and consider the fact that you learned something about what you don't like to eat that meal. Sending food back to the kitchen is reserved, in my mind, for food that is not properly prepared or not what you ordered, not something that you simply don't like.

I still remember trying to choke down that plate of sweetbreads in Montreal [thought I was ordering a veal stew over rice ]. But that was my mistake, not the kitchen's, and it never would have occurred to me to send it back. It wasn't prepared improperly, it was just icky. I will never order sweetbreads again, and always remember that there is a difference between veau avec du riz and ris de veau.

Giovanna

Giovanna wrote:

eatchicago wrote:Economically, many of these restaurants operate on low margins (many do not serve alcohol at all). An unhappy customer sending back a dish and wanting it removed from his check is lost revenue. And often times, when white customers order more obscure dishes, that's exactly what happens. Ask the owner of a Thai restaurant why they don't offer some of the dishes on their Thai language menu in english, and they'll likely say that they're afraid of unhappy customers sending back dishes.

I find the varying points of view on the reasons for untranslated menus interesting, and the above raises a question: Do many [most] people go into a restaurant featuring a cuisine that is not fully familiar to them, order something they don't recognize because it looks 'interesting', and then have the gall to send it back because they didin't like it?

Whether or not the customer sends back the dish, it's the unsatisfied customer that they worry about. Those are the ones that don't come back and sway future customers away.

I have a (non-food-oriented) friend who went to Sticky Rice soon after they opened and told me never to go there because "the food is gross". He said he ordered items under the "Northern Thai Specialties" section of their menu (to this day he can't tell me what), and told me it was the worst Thai food he ever had. I am a big fan of Sticky Rice, and I often try to bring him there, but I bet his negative response to and willingness to talk about it was damaging in it's own small way.

"Pushing the envelope" in the restaurant business is a risk, a risk not many recent immigrants have the desire or the means to take.

Best,
Michael

David, I think we're in complete agreement, in that you accept and agree with my premise that "secret," foreign-language-only menus are (among many other things) a deliberate, not just de facto, attempt to exclude, and I accept and am persuaded by your argument that sometimes barriers, even hostile ones, can serve worthwhile purposes.

When Michael wrote, "There is a widely-held desire in this community towards the...removal of cultural barriers," my (perhaps oversensitive) nose picked up the faint aroma of "unless you share this widely-held desire, you're not really part of our LTH community." (An idea that is exclusionary in itself.) Ironically, while we all share the taking-down-the-barriers value in the abstract, and the words sound good, if we all really believed in that value there wouldn't be one of us arguing for the continued existence of secret menus. Their existence is simply incompatible with the ideal of cultural-barrierlessness.

I'd add that I do find persuasive Michael's assertion that one reason Asian restaurateurs have secret menus is to lessen unhappiness among Anglo customers who might order food they won't like. It's an idea that hadn't occured to me, and I'm glad to encounter it. I think the restaurateurs should balance this, however, against the cost to them of Anglo customers made unhappy by the existence of menus they can't figure out, and the discomfiting feeling that the really good and interesting stuff is being kept from them.

eatchicago wrote:

Giovanna wrote:

eatchicago wrote:Economically, many of these restaurants operate on low margins (many do not serve alcohol at all). An unhappy customer sending back a dish and wanting it removed from his check is lost revenue. And often times, when white customers order more obscure dishes, that's exactly what happens. Ask the owner of a Thai restaurant why they don't offer some of the dishes on their Thai language menu in english, and they'll likely say that they're afraid of unhappy customers sending back dishes.

I find the varying points of view on the reasons for untranslated menus interesting, and the above raises a question: Do many [most] people go into a restaurant featuring a cuisine that is not fully familiar to them, order something they don't recognize because it looks 'interesting', and then have the gall to send it back because they didin't like it?

Whether or not the customer sends back the dish, it's the unsatisfied customer that they worry about. Those are the ones that don't come back and sway future customers away.

I have a (non-food-oriented) friend who went to Sticky Rice soon after they opened and told me never to go there because "the food is gross". He said he ordered items under the "Northern Thai Specialties" section of their menu (to this day he can't tell me what), and told me it was the worst Thai food he ever had. I am a big fan of Sticky Rice, and I often try to bring him there, but I bet his negative response to and willingness to talk about it was damaging in it's own small way.

"Pushing the envelope" in the restaurant business is a risk, a risk not many recent immigrants have the desire or the means to take.

Best,
Michael

this is almost a perfect Chowhound manners topic(of which there is an apparently inexhaustible supply)

perhaps a different topic altogether

who are these entitled people that "branch out" into unfamiliar culinary territory then have the chutzpah to *send it back!*???

is this apocryphal?

eatchicago wrote:I have a (non-food-oriented) friend who went to Sticky Rice soon after they opened and told me never to go there because "the food is gross". He said he ordered items under the "Northern Thai Specialties" section of their menu (to this day he can't tell me what), and told me it was the worst Thai food he ever had.

Unfortunately, there are lots of people like this. The Chow Poodle comes to mind... and there's even a fairly new poster here on LTH that posted something similar to this a week or so ago. Sometimes a little "palate education" is in order before trying a new "exotic" cuisine. Going in cold not knowing what taste profiles to expect may be off putting to some without adventurous palates.

riddlemay wrote:When Michael wrote, "There is a widely-held desire in this community towards the...removal of cultural barriers," my (perhaps oversensitive) nose picked up the faint aroma of "unless you share this widely-held desire, you're not really part of our LTH community." (An idea that is exclusionary in itself.) Ironically, while we all share the taking-down-the-barriers value in the abstract, and the words sound good, if we all really believed in that value there wouldn't be one of us arguing for the continued existence of secret menus. Their existence is simply incompatible with the ideal of cultural-barrierlessness.

In a private message, Michael assures me that he meant nothing exclusionary by his statement, and tells me that he is upset I would have made that inference. My perhaps oversensitive nose, therefore, would seem to have been miscalibrated on this occasion. Sorry, Michael, for misreading you, or for reading more than was there. Equal to my sorrow at misreading you is my happiness that I was wrong.

"fences make good neighbors" ?

ahhh...Sandburg
_________________

Nope. ahhh. . . Frost. "Mending Walls."

jbw wrote:

"fences make good neighbors" ?

ahhh...Sandburg
_________________

Nope. ahhh. . . Frost. "Mending Walls."

gotcha

I knew my middle school recollection was off. I need to read up on my Sandburg(and Frost).

I would like to add that when my mother and I went to KS Seafood, the owner was clearly delighted that we wanted his help to navigate the Chinese-language only section of the menu. My mother (and I, to a much lesser extent) speaks Chinese, but food is not just a question of direct translation in this instance--lamp shadow beef, anyone?--so we needed as much help from him as we could get. After much discussion, we settled on a few items, some of which were even more or less what we expected. The difficulty was that the owner (whose name I didn't get, my bad) had just as much difficulty explaining the dishes in English as we did asking about them in Chinese. Which leads me to the conclusion that in this case at least, the lack of translation is at least partly due to a lack of wherewithal. I think that if we were to provide him with a translated version, he would be very happy to have it available for his non Chinese-reading clientele.

As a side note, I'm discovering as I plow through my translation effort that not all of the non-translated stuff is Taiwanese, there are some dishes from the mainland on there, too, such as crispy baby Eels in the style of Wuxi. I've also discovered a "misspelling" in Chinese, which caused some serious head-scratching, lemme tell ya!

geli wrote:... but food is not just a question of direct translation in this instance--lamp shadow beef, anyone?

What's the story behind that one!?

I guess I could ask Google too...

Travel China Guide wrote:Lamp-shadow Beef - with larruping techniques, the beef is cut in very thin sheet. When a piece is carried, it looks like translucent paper, slippery and reddish. When put under the lamp or light, a red shadow will appear.

Lamp-shadow Beef - with larruping techniques, the beef is cut in very thin sheet. When a piece is carried, it looks like translucent paper, slippery and reddish. When put under the lamp or light, a red shadow will appear.

What's funny is that that exact quote is on almost every google entry for lamp shadow beef. What's not funny (to me anyway) is that the entry for it on the KS menu doesn't say beef, it says somthing about a boat...which may mean that it's seafood, or may mean that it's slice into boat-shaped pieces. I'll have to ask my dad.

I do have to say that I'm learning quite a bit as I'm going along...although I still don't know what "larruping" is.

geli wrote:I do have to say that I'm learning quite a bit as I'm going along...although I still don't know what "larruping" is.

What if there were this information resource where could just type in a word or phrase and get a whole bunch of information about it back?



You probably think I deserve a larrupin' for that kind of snarkiness...


The primary definition for larrup that I find is "To beat, flog, or thrash."; It also appears to be a regionalism for great or excellent, especially for food, as in "larrupin' good" -- here's a more elaborate "word of the day" treatment for that usage...

I guess what I should say is that I still don't know what it means as far as a chinese food preparation goes. I mean, I could make some bad jokes about beef spanking, but I probably shouldn't go there.

Also, in reference to Giovanna's veal/sweetbreads mishap, in France I once thought I was ordering veal and I got brains. In a school cafeteria, no less.

"c'est veau" and "cerveau" sound very much alike, malhereusement.

geli wrote:The difficulty was that the owner (whose name I didn't get, my bad) had just as much difficulty explaining the dishes in English as we did asking about them in Chinese. Which leads me to the conclusion that in this case at least, the lack of translation is at least partly due to a lack of wherewithal. I think that if we were to provide him with a translated version, he would be very happy to have it available for his non Chinese-reading clientele.

You touch upon a problem which, in my mind, makes full English translations of Chinese menus more imperative, not less. Which is that, if you are relying on a Chinese waiter or owner to help you understand the items on the "secret" Chinese-language menu, the waiter's or owner's English speaking skills may not be good enough to get the job done. This assumes the best intentions on his part and the customer's part to overcome the language/diction barrier--it still may be damnably difficult to make any headway. A decently translated menu--which would only be a one-time expense for the owner, and surely there is no shortage of local Chinese-Americans fluent in Chinese and English who would be happy to provide this service for a modest enough fee--would solve the problem. Assuming there is the will to solve it.

Hi,

My Dad's annual visit to San Francisco usually prompts a read of the San Francisco Chowhound board. His usual request revolves around Chinese food, especially Peking duck. I always check to see what regular poster Melanie Wong prefers.

Presently a discussion begun in November just popped up on Earliest Authentic Chinese Restaurant Outside of SF City Limits?. This discussion begun in November was updated yesterday by an extensive quote from Doris Muscatine's "A Cook's Tour of San Francisco" (1963). One quote reminded me of a Chinese restaurant in Highland Park once served, "There is an unusual dessert here of fried apples or bananas in a candy-coating. Prepared in chunky pieces, they come piping hot in a flowing caramel sauce. You pick up a piece with your chopsticks and plunge it for an instant into a bowl of ice water."

Reading through this thread I found a link a Chicago Reader article by Olivia Wu titled, 'Ancient Chinese Secrets: Real Chinese food and why you've probably never had any..' It is well worth reading, especially when you see improvements over the last 15 years and yet some issues remains the same.

I thought it might be interesting to talk to Olivia Wu. I learned about where Olivia Wu is from a Chicago Tribune blog post by Bill Daley 'Wu-Bower is Avec's new chef de cuisine.' Wu-Bower is Olivia Wu's son. She is now executive chef at Google, Inc.

I found an Olivia Wu interview in her Google Inc position.






Regards,

I can remember having those sugar/honey encrusted bananas and apples at several "gourmet" Chinese restaurants back in the 70's and 80's (Including Little Szechuan, the one in Highland Park).

stevez wrote:I can remember having those sugar/honey encrusted bananas and apples at several "gourmet" Chinese restaurants back in the 70's and 80's (Including Little Szechuan, the one in Highland Park).

My impression, based on nothing in particular, these were gimmicky rather than authentic Chinese desserts. Little Szechuan also had dazzling sizzling rice soup.

Regards,