Boiled bagels

A couple of Saturdays ago on the front page in the Tempo section of the Tribune there was a mention of NYC Bagel Deli at North and Sheffield. The column (One Fine Day or something like that) starts the day off with a bagel that was first boiled.
I will soon find my way there to sample this midwestern rarity, but wondered if there were other places in Chicagoland that also know the right way to make a bagel.
Anyone know of other places that boil their bagels first?

Is this the same as a bialy? it is a hole-less bagel that i believed got the shape from boiling. I may be wrong, but if not Olivia's market carries Bialy they get from NYC Bagel.

Olivia's Market
2014 W. Wabansia
773-227-4220

MLS wrote:I will soon find my way there to sample this midwestern rarity, but wondered if there were other places in Chicagoland that also know the right way to make a bagel.
Anyone know of other places that boil their bagels first?

I don't think it's that rare, although there are many places that try to pass off rolls with a hole in the middle as bagels.

The finest in Chicagoland, in my opinion is New York Bagel and Bialy. The same thread has significant bagel discussion.

Another good source to read is the LTHForum Bagel Tasting

Best,
Michael

Mitch Cumstein wrote:Is this the same as a bialy?

No.

A bialy is not boiled, but simply baked with a depression in the center instead of a hole. (Bialys also come in the "stick" variety).

In my book, if it isn't boiled, it isn't a bagel.

Best,
Michael

I'm 99% sure Olivia's carries New York Bagel and Bialy bagels, not NYC Bagels. That's NYB&B and not NYCB - oof.

Also, that's only on Saturday and Sunday, and they sometimes don't "arrive" until 9 or 10am.

Worth a try if you live close by.

MJ

Th tgwo Beans & Bagels - one on Montrose and Ravenswood, the other on Rockwell and Leland - both carry NY Bagel & Bialy freshly delivered daily. They also carry more than a dozen roasts of Metropolis coffee.

The bagel tasting trek sounded great, but is that the only way to find a boiled bagel in Chicagoland-trek to the northwest and far northwest to Wheeling, Skokie, Lincolnwood, Highland Park, or Deerfield(the Libertyville place, Bagel by the Book doesn't boil them first)?
Is North Avenue really the furthest south location in Chicagoland to find a place that boils their bagels first?

vegmojo wrote:I'm 99% sure Olivia's carries New York Bagel and Bialy bagels, not NYC Bagels. That's NYB&B and not NYCB - oof.

Also, that's only on Saturday and Sunday, and they sometimes don't "arrive" until 9 or 10am.

Worth a try if you live close by.

MJ

That would be correct: and they tend to get snatched up pretty quickly, but they're the best bagels in bucktown, for sure. Though, NYC Bagel Deli is not far away, but their parking situation can be MADDENING on a weekend morning.

JB's Deli/Giordano's Pharmacy (5501 N. Clark) also carries bagels from NY Bagel & Bialy. Day old bags of bagels are dirt cheap, which is nice for people like me who eat them toasted unless they are hot out of the oven.

The bagels at Cellar's Market in the basement of the Board of Trade building has bagels that appear strikingly real (i.e. like NY B&B) but I haven't tried them. I keep meaning to ask about their vendor.

I asked a Cellar's employee about their bagel vendor yesterday and was handed a note stating, "New York Bagel Company in Niles." I think this refers to NY Bagel & Bialy (based on the similarity of the name and the look of the bagels).

Fraggle wrote:I think this refers to NY Bagel & Bialy (based on the similarity of the name and the look of the bagels).

Yes, I'm sure he meant NYB&B.

8794 W Dempster
Niles, IL
(847) 390-0993

I have done much searching for "real" bagels--the others we call rolls with holes--and by far the best on the North Side are at NY Bagel & Bialys in Lincolnwood, on Touhy just east of I 94 on the north side of the street in a strip mall...They are excellent, and I believe the owner once told me they were open 24/7...In any event I've never been there when it wasn't open..

HP Schmaltz in Naperville and Downers Grove brings in bagel dough from NYC and boils it up. I have not checked lately, but the last time I spoke with Howard, one of the owners, they had gone through an extensive sampling process and discovered that the key to making a real, honest NYC bagel was to boil it in NYC tap water, so he was bringing that in, too. Somehow I doubt that continues, but I can check on that easily enough.

Not that near downtown, but both Schmaltz locations are south of North Avenue , so this is not just a northside thing.

Certainly NYB&B seem to be the best available (with the possible exception of the aforementioned Schmaltz, about which we have no real data).
I believe NYB&B are the bagels served at Samuel's opposite T.I. on Broadway. Not sure if they are also at The Bagel further south at Barry and B'way. They also have them in the loop at the little Shalom Deli, owned by an Asian couple just north of Madison on Wells.

I discovered that in a pinch, the bulk bagels at T.I are acceptable. No substutite to be sure, but somewhat appropriately dense and not fluffy, pillowy, spongy catastrophes. Also much cheaper than many a worse example. (Like .40 ea., or something.)

dicksond wrote:..discovered that the key to making a real, honest NYC bagel was to boil it in NYC tap water, so he was bringing that in, too. Somehow I doubt that continues, but I can check on that easily enough.

Shipping tap water for boiling his bagels? Is he charging $5 per bagel?

The whole thing about the water seems ridiculous to me. If the compounds in the water were truly the differentiating factor, which they may well be, the technology has existed for many, many years to analyze the water. I've heard many times about the NY water and the effect it has on pizza dough and bagels. Why hasn't some enterprising young biologist figured out what's actually at play here? Does NYC tap water have a higher level of a particular mineral? Does it have something to do with the municipal treatment process? Heck, I'd find that out long before I started shipping water across the country.

Best,
Michael

eatchicago wrote:

dicksond wrote:..discovered that the key to making a real, honest NYC bagel was to boil it in NYC tap water, so he was bringing that in, too. Somehow I doubt that continues, but I can check on that easily enough.

Shipping tap water for boiling his bagels? Is he charging $5 per bagel?

The whole thing about the water seems ridiculous to me. If the compounds in the water were truly the differentiating factor, which they may well be, the technology has existed for many, many years to analyze the water. I've heard many times about the NY water and the effect it has on pizza dough and bagels. Why hasn't some enterprising young biologist figured out what's actually at play here? Does NYC tap water have a higher level of a particular mineral? Does it have something to do with the municipal treatment process? Heck, I'd find that out long before I started shipping water across the country.

Best,
Michael

Crazy as it sounds, let's not get too hasty -- it might actually not cost that much, and there are crazier examples of long-haul water shipping. After all, they ship water from Fiji so Madonna can drink it; why not water from NYC to boil bagels? So, how much water does it take to boil one bagel, anyway? Let's say you have a 50-gallon cauldron and refresh the water daily, and you make 5,000 bagels a day using that water, then it's just 1.28 ounces of water per bagel. Even using bottled water at 5 to 10 cents per ounce, that only adds about 6 to 13 cents to the price of each bagel; and if you had your own 2,000 gallon tanker (that's actually a relatively small one) bringing in a load every 40 days (assuming you bake every day), the delta might be a couple cents per bagel (assuming a generous $4,000 for the shipping and returning the empty truck to NYC, that's just $2 a gallon or $100 a day to make your 5,000 daily bagels). I could actually see making that work, assuming you had access to the water source. Of course, any real bagel makers here may challenge my assumptions (how big is a bagel boiling pot? How many bagels can you boil before you have to refresh the water? In each instance, I don't know and I just guessed. I did a little research on trucking rates; $4,000 was way on the high end and was based on sending a refrigerated fruit truck from Southern California to Boston. )

Hands down, that has got to be the most ridiculous post I've read on this site yet. I admit, that's why I come here.

stelladoro wrote:Hands down, that has got to be the most ridiculous post I've read on this site yet. I admit, that's why I come here.

So does that mean you will, or will not, be buying the bagels after somebody runs with this idea?

Well, the gist of my question wasn't really the cost (though adding 13c to the cost of a bagel is a very significant increase) but the question of "why?" So, we're told that the key is in the water. But why? Why hasn't anyone decoded the mysterious secret of NYC tap water? We could have done this in my jr high chemistry lab.

It seems odd to me that someone would isolate the difference between bagels down to the water it's boiled in and stop there, declaring the rest of the story a mystery. Until someone can show me why NYC water is different when it comes to boiling dough, the whole thing sounds like either a marketing ploy or an old wives tale.

eatchicago wrote:Well, the gist of my question wasn't really the cost (though adding 13c to the cost of a bagel is a very significant increase) but the question of "why?" So, we're told that the key is in the water. But why? Why hasn't anyone decoded the mysterious secret of NYC tap water? We could have done this in my jr high chemistry lab.

It seems odd to me that someone would isolate the difference between bagels down to the water it's boiled in and stop there, declaring the rest of the story a mystery. Until someone can show me why NYC water is different when it comes to boiling dough, the whole thing sounds like either a marketing ploy or an old wives tale.

I agree. Although in a sense, that was sorta my point, too. And another question is, "Why ask why?" If people will pay for it, somebody will market it. Just look at that bottle of Fiji water.

From NYC Bagel Deli's website:

"To insure the proper taste a water purification filtration system has been installed to match the water properties of New York City."

It must be more than the water (if, in fact, they have managed to recreate NYC water), because NBD's bagels taste nothing like good NYC bagels.

DY wrote:"...the water properties of New York City..."

Which are what, exactly?

DY wrote:It must be more than the water (if, in fact, they have managed to recreate NYC water), because NBD's bagels taste nothing like good NYC bagels.

I couldn't agree more.

In theory, I believe the chemical properties of most American municipal waters are pretty much the same aside from minerals and trace chemicals. The EPA decrees that it be so. So the question is whether iron from one source tastes different from iron from another source. Or, to put it differently, can two apparently identical chemical compounds have different tastes? Can anyone say sea salt? So no, I do not think it safe to say that one can recreate water that is identical to NYC water in taste, even if we can pretty much duplicate its chemistry.

It seems Schmaltz's idea that the NYC water makes the difference is not unique, since NYB&B says the same thing. Whether they can recreate NYC water is another issue. I will head to Schmaltz next week and ask Howard what they did about this water issue, and even sample a bagel purely for research purposes.

One other probably useless data point - about 20 years ago, Consumer Reports held a water tasting. They compared bottled waters, and city water from a number of places across the country. They did an analysis of all the water to find out whether the water was safe, and also a taste test - the winner, IIRC, was NYC tap water in the taste test.

More recently they tested airplane water, and the results were both very unpleasant as to taste, and horrifying as to safety (more than a couple of instances of insect eggs and other contamination).

Just thought I would throw that in, as I free associated about water.

I will try to check with Schmaltz on Monday and post next week in this proudly useless thread.

Meanwhile, I do believe there is more to this taste thing than just copying the chemical composition, really, and even for water.

dicksond wrote:So the question is whether iron from one source tastes different from iron from another source. Or, to put it differently, can two apparently identical chemical compounds have different tastes? Can anyone say sea salt?

That's apples to oranges. Iron is an element, it is made of nothing but iron. Sea salt is a compound made of sodium, chlorine, and lots of other elements in much smaller quantities.

A molecule of pure NaCl from India will taste the same as a molecule from Chicago, or a molecule from NYC.

I think it is 100% possible to exactly recreate NYC water, and I also think there's a significant variation in municipal water around the country. The water in a few areas in the country is EPA-approved but still basically undrinkable.

Are they saying the NYC water affects the flavor of the bagels, or the consistency of the dough and the behavior of the yeast, or both? It seems the qualities of the dough maybe a function of the mineral content, but the flavor has as much to do with the organic matter suspended in the water as the inorganic chemicals dissolved in it. Think about that special flavor that Chicago water gets during August when the algae is blooming.

There is an incredible amount of data out there from the analysis of the effects of water on brewing beer. Not that it is all applicable here, but it might make an interesting point of comparison.

The quality of water and the various minerals and ions in it can have a dramatic effect on the end product of a brew. When the water hits the malted grain and the enzymes get to work breaking complex carbs into various sugars, the ph is a very important factor for both conversion and flavor. When the sugary water is boiled with hops and other adjuncts, the minerals and ions start to play a bigger role as they effect how the oils and flavors of the hops integrate with the brew water. When the brew is fermenting, both the ph and minerals matter in the performance of the yeast.

This, of course, ignores about a zillion other factors in determining the taste and quality of the final beer (quality of ingredients, sterility of the system, temperature, etc.) Nonetheless, water is an important factor that brewer spend a lot of time dealing with.

For brewers who try to replicate the waters of other cities (generally well known brewing cities), they usually start by using a good filter to remove any chlorine and bacterial and organic matter. Then, using gypsum, salts, baking soda, acids, etc. they adjust the properties of the water to get it close to the levels of minerals and ions in the target city's water. This generally works quite well with the exception of biological agents in the target water which can't really be replicated (to my knowledge).

As to the effect on bagels: I would imagine that the effect of the boiling water on the final product would pale in comparison to the effects of the flour, yeast, water in the dough, and temperature/length of the rises. At the point where the bagel is boiled, I would venture a guess that most of the flavor has already been established and boiling would mostly effect the texture of the bagel. But I could certainly be underestimating its importance. I guess it depends on the water's ability to penetrate the dough and swap minerals and compounds.

This is a very interesting discussion.

Taft

NYC tap water USED to be the tastiest in part because they got it from springs way upstate, ran it from there in big old pipes downstate, and by the time it had gotten to the destination all the junk had fallen away. Nowadays the water upstate is getting just as contaminated as water everywhere, and so more filtering and treating is required, and it's just as crappy as every other municipal water supply. But once upon a time, yes, NYC water was superior tasting. The English would even say to make the best tea you started with NYC tap water!

You can read the most recent NYC water quality report here:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/wsstate.html

and on its declining ability to be unfiltered here
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... _n16673296

and more about NYC tap water and a few on its effect on bagels...
http://nymag.com/news/articles/reasonst ... 006/25606/
http://www.citidex.com/3672.htm

and why it might not be kosher here
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=3017

Ed, I do not accept that all the aromatic compounds, including organics as noted above, can be replicated. Or, to say it differently, that a chemical analysis of the water, and then replicating that water with the same chemical profile, will result in water that tastes the same. For two reasons - the source of the chemicals may have some impact on the flavor (trace elements come along with the chemicals added, depending on the exact checmical used), and there probably are trace elements in the NYC water that cannot be easily analyzed, or added effectively when recreating the water.

I know research has shown that many people can taste very small concentrations of certain compounds, though many cannot, too.

But you are right that the flavor of different salts primarily comes from contaminants, though I think that is also the case with water.

Lee and Taft, thanks for all the good info.

I did visit HP Schmaltz and Howard reminded me of how they addressed this issue. They buy the bagels from New York, boiled and flash frozen, then bake them here. He said they are pretty wet when received, so there is a certain amount of water that comes along which helps in the flavoring and baking process.

It was a quiet day at Schmaltz with all the snow so I got a lot of info. But the fact remains that there is some sort of consensus that NYC water is the key to making the best bagels. No idea why, but Howard confirmed again that this was his experience in tasting lots of different bagels for his shop.

dicksond wrote:No idea why, but Howard confirmed again that this was his experience in tasting lots of different bagels for his shop.

This reminds me of the adage about the scientist who trained a fly to start flying at the sound of a bell. He removed the fly's wings and rang the bell as usual. The fly did not fly. The scientist concluded that flies hear through their wings.

I think Howard confirmed that he likes the NY-provided bagels best. I have a hard time understanding how he isolated the water as the cause of his preference during a tasting.

eatchicago wrote:

dicksond wrote:No idea why, but Howard confirmed again that this was his experience in tasting lots of different bagels for his shop.

This reminds me of the adage about the scientist who trained a fly to start flying at the sound of a bell. He removed the fly's wings and rang the bell as usual. The fly did not fly. The scientist concluded that flies hear through their wings.

I think Howard confirmed that he likes the NY-provided bagels best. I have a hard time understanding how he isolated the water as the cause of his preference during a tasting.

That I can answer. He tried the same batch of dough prepared two ways, one boiled in Chicago water and one boiled in NYC water, but otherwise prepared identically. He preferred the taste of the bagels boiled in NYC water (and could tell the difference, he says). It was a disciplined taste test, as he told it to me.