Jay K wrote:

Dmnkly wrote:the single largest source of fresh fish in the entire world. As we were finishing up, an American couple came in and sat down at the other end, at which time the fellow loudly asked, "So... what's fresh today?"

The two chefs down on our end of the bar just groaned.

Tsukiji?

Yup

Dmnkly wrote:

budrichard wrote:Dine with Kuni in Evanstan and you will see what the true concept is about, discourse with the Chef over what is best that day and how to have it served to you. Tokyo, LA, Chicago or wherever, ordering by filling out a form is not the original concept.-Dick

Ahhh, okay.

Well, next time I'm eating a block from Tsukiji, I'll be sure to tell them they're doing it all wrong and that the guys in Evanston can show them how it's really supposed to be done. Who knew I was eating McDonald's sushi this whole time!

I'm sorry I didn't defer to your superior judgement. I didn't realise that eating a block from Tsukiji made one an 'Expert' on Sushi.

I stick to my assertion that filling out a slip of paper is the McDonalds of Sushi. The traditional way is to converse with the Chef over the fish and the meal while the Chef watches your progression and when he notices you are ready for more, supplies it. The Chef also keeps the tab in his head.
Filling out a piece of paper loses the interface which is at least half the cultural experience.
Actually Hiroko Shimbo's new book 'The Sushi Experience' mirrors my thoughts almost exactly and traces the changes fostered by economics and Sushi bars.
I first met Kuni when he was head Chef at Hatsuhana. My experiences with him have always been good and he always remembers me. By some standards his preperations may seem outdated but they are classic. I have never had a quality problem.
There are many Sushi bars now. Most are not run by Japanese and in fact many are run by Korean's. I always ask where the Chef was trained. You would be surprised by the answers. Some of them can be quite good but the cultural experience is lost in these places. As I stated, i ate at Akai Hana once. I filled out the paper, had no discourse with the Chef and the Sushi was unremarkable. I can and do, do better at home. -Dick

budrichard wrote:I'm sorry I didn't defer to your superior judgement. I didn't realise that eating a block from Tsukiji made one an 'Expert' on Sushi.

Dick, you miss the point entirely.

I was not name-dropping Tsukiji to claim expertise over the realm of sushi, nor did I ever claim to be an expert on sushi in any other way. The point was simply that it's widely served this way (at some stunning establishments, no less) in the heart of its country of origin. Suggesting that paper and pencil ordering for sushi is culturally incorrect and that any restaurant serving it this way should be avoided is like saying that you love Tapas but you won't be eating it in Spain beacuse, man, they just can't get it right there.

What's more, there's a huge difference between saying "you know, paper and pencil ordering is all fine and good, but you really miss out on a great cultural tradition of exchange with a sushi chef that way," and saying "run, don't walk" from pencil and paper because anything served that way is "McDonald's Sushi." The former raises a valid observation about the restaurant experience. The latter is a narrowminded elitist putdown of any method of service that isn't "traditional" according to budrichard.

I'm not arguing for a moment with the assertion that sitting at a bar with a talented chef is a more special and culturally engaging experience. I'm arguing with the condesceding, elitist treatment of any method of service that doesn't meet what you call "traditional" standards.

And furthermore, if you feel that people should "run, [not] walk" away from any sushi that isn't served according to the "original concept," I'd encourage you to learn a little about the history of the dish before you declare yourself the arbiter of what "traditional" is. The style of service you refer to is, in fact, a very RECENT style of service in the history of the dish. 200 years ago, people weren't being carefully tended to by a trained sushi chef. It was mostly being served from street carts as food for the poor. It was the early 19th century version of Japanese fast food.

Hey! Look at that! McDonald's Sushi IS traditional sushi!

Edited lots to correct errors due to frenzied typing... sorry.

Dick,

Are you Japanese? If not, it would seem that under your logic you are not able to truly experience or understand sushi. Please note, I am not being sarcastic of sophistic; it just follows from your posts, and there is precedent from the Japanese perspective along this very line of thought.

As for the paper and pencil, that always strikes me as a very old fashioned thing and a sign that I am in a more traditional, or at least old-school, modest, Japanese restaurant.

Didn't the Japanese also invent "conveyor-belt" sushi? That seems miles further removed from the chef than the checklist.

They love the automat as well.

"Are you Japanese? If not, it would seem that under your logic you are not able to truly experience or understand sushi. Please note, I am not being sarcastic of sophistic; it just follows from your posts, and there is precedent from the Japanese perspective along this very line of thought."

I am not Japanese, but I do have some insights into the culture and I assure you that unless you are Japanese, you will never truly understand the Japanese. I have many Japanese friends and one of my best friends, a Japanese citizen asked me to be the Best Man at his Wedding to a US citizen which I did. His parents disowned him. I do find the culture facinating for its love of beauty and detail. Of course what other culture would make cooking a battle! I have studied Sushi, Chef's, the History and its accoutremounts. I have not proclaimed myself anything, you have done that. What I have said is my opinion and provided facts to support that opinion. If you disagree, that's fine, but don't harp on me if I don't agree with you.
Putting check marks on a piece of paper, taking sushi from a conveyor belt, has no fascination for me. Discourse with the Chef over what's available, where its from, fresh or frozen and the way to prepare is what I like and is the traditional method. I don't eat at McDonalds or any fast food place to satisfy my hunger. I do enjoy food served by individuals knowledgable in its source, history and culture. EOT-Dick

I think it's interesting that sushi tends to spark such fierce and passionate debate, really along the lines of BBQ. I mean, do any of us who aren't Japanese really have the right to debate this given the rituals and cultural significance that surround this particular food.

I mean, maybe both of you are right. My sense is that both schools of serving sushi are probably "authentic" in some way, they just represent different styles and/or level.

Maybe there are two Japanese people in Tokyo arguing about the merits and authenticity of Texas vs North Carolina BBQ?

jesteinf wrote:Maybe there are two Japanese people in Tokyo arguing about the merits and authenticity of Texas vs North Carolina BBQ?

Dude, you just blew my mind.

Dick,

I'm glad you quoted my question, because its juxtaposition with your reaction highlights a few things. I did not proclaim you anything. Nor did I claim to understand or even slightly grasp the Japanese people's collective psyche, language, or relationship with sushi. That remains, despite my Japanese in-laws and friends. (Yes, my Cuban wife's grandfather is Japanese.)

As for the following, "I am not Japanese, but I do have some insights into the culture and I assure you that unless you are Japanese, you will never truly understand the Japanese," I cannot disagree. On the other hand, I can't really take your word for it either, since you are not Japanese.

I'm going to borrow one from Hammond:

Increase the peace, won't you?

JeffB

I don't harp on people with different opinions, Dick.

I harp on people who falsely claim a knowledge of what's "traditional" in support of an opinion that is stated in an arrogant, condescending and absolute manner.

There's a big difference.

And a very important one, I think, on a board like this.

JeffB wrote:That remains, despite my Japanese in-laws and friends. (Yes, my Cuban wife's grandfather is Japanese.)

Jeff,

You are indeed a walking United Nations.

All right, let's everybody take a deep breath before we post anything else, or I'm going to lock the thread.

jesteinf wrote:I think it's interesting that sushi tends to spark such fierce and passionate debate, really along the lines of BBQ. I mean, do any of us who aren't Japanese really have the right to debate this given the rituals and cultural significance that surround this particular food.

I mean, maybe both of you are right. My sense is that both schools of serving sushi are probably "authentic" in some way, they just represent different styles and/or level.

Maybe there are two Japanese people in Tokyo arguing about the merits and authenticity of Texas vs North Carolina BBQ?

To be clear, I'm not making ANY claims as to what may or may not constitute some absolute ideal of what "traditional" sushi may or may not be.

Quite the contrary, I meant to illustrate that claming any sushi service style as the traditional way is a crock.

Dmnkly wrote:To be clear, I'm not making ANY claims as to what may or may not constitute some absolute ideal of what "traditional" sushi may or may not be.

I know. All I'm saying is that there may not be an absolute ideal of what "traditional" sushi may or may not be.

I think there are a number of foods where this tends to spark a debate (cheese steaks, BBQ, chili, whatever).

jesteinf wrote:

Dmnkly wrote:To be clear, I'm not making ANY claims as to what may or may not constitute some absolute ideal of what "traditional" sushi may or may not be.

I know. All I'm saying is that there may not be an absolute ideal of what "traditional" sushi may or may not be.

I believe that historically sushi was made from fermented fish. So, really, what everyone's eating now is a nouveau-bastardization of the real tradition.

Best,
Michael

I don't want to get into a discussion of "traditional," but isn't it useful to make a distinction between the fanciful, more modern style of sushi (e.g. including mayo) and the style I used to get in the 1970's, and still offered by Kuni and others of that ilk? Not that one is better than the other...

nr706 wrote:I don't want to get into a discussion of "traditional," but isn't it useful to make a distinction between the fanciful, more modern style of sushi (e.g. including mayo) and the style I used to get in the 1970's, and still offered by Kuni and others of that ilk? Not that one is better than the other...

Oh, absolutely. Sushi (and sashimi, for that matter) as a concept is in the process of going through another phase of redefinition that certainly seems to constitute more than a fad. The mayo-laden neo-maki have made their way back to Japan, so it'll be interesting to see if they propagate over there.

And I don't think there's any reason the word "traditional" has to be banished. The mayo maki may one day be referred to as traditional themselves. I just think it's fallacy to claim that there's some absolute ideal as to what constitutes the traditional way, especially when trying to make comparative judgements. It may be a matter of semantics, but there's a difference between comparative and absolute.

nr706 wrote:I don't want to get into a discussion of "traditional," but isn't it useful to make a distinction between the fanciful, more modern style of sushi (e.g. including mayo) and the style I used to get in the 1970's, and still offered by Kuni and others of that ilk? Not that one is better than the other...

Yes. Mayo on sushi is icky.

ronnie_suburban wrote:Food-wise, about a year ago I noticed a change. It was subtle but many of the items which had become my favorites seemed to be missing their edge. It's hard to explain but the flavors were no longer popping and the fish itself, while still seeming very fresh, just wasn't packing the same intensity of flavor that it once did.

Ron,

My wife had dinner with one of her nieces* last week at Akai Hana, said it was uninspired, so I, perversely, decided to eat lunch there today to see for myself. I had not been in 3-4 years, though remembered it being, if not destination, at least solid.

Started strong with a deep flavored miso soup, cubes of tofu, shreds of seaweed, mist of miso, dashi obviously made from scratch and a table shaker of togarashi for spicy accent. Sashimi lunch bento had a very nice crisp, vinegary sliced cucumber salad, unfortunately mounded with Hammond's new friend krab, of which I am not much of a fan.

Incredibly the best tasting fish on my bento was the krab, which at least had texture and flavor, such as it may be. Not that the slim slabs of fish, two, two and two salmon, tuna and white fish were off, just they were so insipid, so incredibly devoid of flavor, texture, pop, if I had not seen the itamaes behind the sushi bar I'd have thought my meal was sourced premade from Dominick's.

Two rounds of futomaki wrapped in damp nori, one California roll, boring even under the best of circumstances, tasteless gari and pasty punch-less recently reconstituted wasabi rounded out my waste of space lunch.

I should have invoked the Kuhdo Rule** and gone to Irving's for Red Hot Lovers on the other side of the strip mall, but it was too hot for a dog and fries.

Enjoy,
Gary

*If it seems my wife has a lot of nieces and nephews, it's because she does. 70 at last count.
**If your first dinner is not up to snuff you owe it to yourself to have a second.

Akai Hana
3223 Lake Ave
Wilmette, IL 60091
847-256-7010

Irving's for Red Hot Lovers
3207 Lake Ave
Wilmette, IL 60091
847-251-6300

Hi Gary,

It sounds like your experience was very similar to the one about which I posted above. There's not much worse than wasting an eating opportunity on something that fills but does not satisfy.

I find, more so than with just about any other type of cuisine, that sushi enjoyment is all about bar-setting. And once you've found a place that sets your personal bar for you, it's very hard to derive pleasure when you eat at a place where the food falls below that bar. It ends up becoming an unenjoyable and almost meaningless experience.

Of course, with Akai Hana, since I've had many enjoyable meals there, I have held out hope and continued to eat there occasionally, in the hopes that it would satisfy me as it once did. That hasn't happened.

What I cannot determine with certainty is whether Akai Hana has lowered their bar or if my bar has moved up. I'm guessing that it's a combination of the two. I've eaten at some great sushi places over the past couple of years that trump Akai Hana in many ways, so I know that's at least part of it. OTOH, one of food's most powerful attributes is the way it can take us back and remind us of the past. If it were completely unchanged, I would expect Akai Hana's food to still scratch the itch for me -- on at least that level. But lately, it hasn't even done that.

=R=

edit for clarity

G Wiv wrote: I had not been in 3-4 years, though remembered it being, if not destination, at least solid.

This used to be our default destination if Renga Tei was too busy. The last time we went (maybe 3 or 4 months ago) it was definitely not as good as before. Not terrible, just not very good. Like everyone else, it's hard to put my finger on exactly what changed. They also had painted over the mural on the wall so now the decor isn't even interesting. If we are in the area and want Japanese we'll probably drive over to Kamakura in downtown Wilmette from now on.

Kamakura Japanese Restaurant
(847) 256-6783
1116 Central Ave
Wilmette, IL 60091

Just got back from Akai Hana -- earlyish dinner with Thing1 and his fiancee (hmm she needs a clever nickname for this site), who just got in for spring break. It was a restaurant we knew she could eat at (she keeps kosher), and somewhat between our and her house. As we sat down I remembered Kamehachi would have met the same criteria, and had come highly recommended (from sources outside of LTH too).

Had no problem with the service, food was pretty good but nothing stellar. I ordered the beef teriyaki combo which had a california roll, a big pile of sunomono, and one each ebi, salmon and tuna. My only real problem was the teriyaki: there was nothing grilled about it, it was thinly sliced beef in teriyaki sauce like bul go gi but no open flame, or a sweet italian beef. Kind of weird.

Thing1 had tonkatsu, was pretty good. The Fiancee had salt-grilled mackerel which was very good. The sushi on my plate was nothing special. All plates had a pile of shredded white cabbage, flavorless and dressingless. Miso soup was above average, green tea ice cream was better than many.

Prices were reasonable... that's probably the word to sum the place up: reasonable. It's just ordinary, nothing wonderful.

I cut my sushi teeth on Akai Hana. Growing up, it was the local sushi house of choice. I remember when California rolls seemed exotic and the shrimp with the tail still attached was 'challenging' food. I even enjoyed the novelty of what my aunt covertly referred to as a Korean "fish cult" (a claim lent some legitimacy by this fascinating piece had some basis to it).

But I think I have grown up and my tastes have too.

Despite proximity to relatives, it has become compromise cuisine. I ate there last week and the shu mai had nothing on the best-in-class version elsewhere in the burbs.

And my bowl of udon soup (something I would lump into the 'simple standards') was pretty flat and flavorless. In the LTH spirit, I did not give up on my Japanese dining fix. The next night, I enjoyed crispy gyoza, miso soup redolent of, well, miso and a tip-to-tail lip-smacking example of broiled mackerel at Sunshine Cafe. I tasted my friend's tenpura udon and the broth was a good balance of sweet and salty - just like it should be. It was a far cry better than what I had slurped the previous night.

Maybe I should stick to sushi and fried items. But I never found those items to be all that appealing at Akai Hana too. Besides, Renga Tei and Sushi Kushi Too are not all that far north or south and I would rather take my business there.

I am not hurrying back to the Red Flower anytime soon.

I'm afraid my experiences there mirror a lot of what has been said. About fifteen years ago or so my wife had a job in the plaza across the street from Akai Hana and we'd go often. It was good and not that expensive. In recent years we'd only go every so often, and I have to say in the last three or four years it has just fallen off the radar because it hasn't been that hot. (Does anyone remember their branch years ago on State Street and Walton?) The last time I went was maybe six months ago and my wife and I just sort of decided it wasn't worth it any more. We used to get carry out sushi from the fish market in the same little mall there, but I haven't for years, it used to be decent competitive take out fish. Anyone been there recently?

JoelF wrote:Just got back from Akai Hana ...It was a restaurant we knew she could eat at (she keeps kosher).

'Splain please. Note that I am not Jewish, but merely intrigued. I thought that the inclusion of so many items deemed trayfe would disbar anyone keeping Kosher from dining at a sushi restaurant. Thanks in advance.

I may be slightly off here (I guess I would qualify as a lapsed Jew) but two things come to mind:

1) If someone is keeps strictly kosher, there is no way they could eat out at any restaurant unless they knew that the entire kitchen was certified as kosher by someone with authority (the proper rabbi or rabbinic council) to do so. If the utensils and cookware are not kosher, no food cooked in them can ever be kosher.

2) A more common guideline followed by some is a "practical" compromise: we won't insist that the kitchen be kosher (because if we did so we'd be extremely limited in our choices). Instead, we will insist on eating only items we know aren't trayf (unkosher). Thus, they won't order the shrimp or the lobster, but will order vegetarian items or fish known to be kosher. Strictly speaking, for the reason noted above, this isn't kosher (either literally or figuratively) but it is a common compromise.

And then you have folks like me who have, for all intents and purposes, given up the distinction entirely.

Gypsy Boy nailed it.

She will eat in non-Kosher restaurants, there just needs to be a reasonable selection of fish and/or meatless options that she's certain meat products haven't been slipped into.

I was also looking for something nicer than, say, pancakes, and between the two of them they've had too much fried rice and quesadillas.

JoelF wrote:Just got back from Akai Hana -- earlyish dinner with Thing1 and his fiancee (hmm she needs a clever nickname for this site), who just got in for spring break.

Thong?

Alfonso XIV wrote:

JoelF wrote:Just got back from Akai Hana -- earlyish dinner with Thing1 and his fiancee (hmm she needs a clever nickname for this site), who just got in for spring break.

Thong?

No.

The withering glance alone would kill.