Food Camera Advice Quest (FCAQ) 2007

So … my camera broke like 6 months ago. I didn’t drop it or anything. Just one sad day, I slid aside the lens cover, and nothing happened. Oh, I could still peruse the stored pictures of hot dogs, etc. But I couldn’t take a new photo, of say, a polish.

In long term, dysfunctional, obsessive disbelief, the camera has sat on my desk since, fully charged. Daily I open it, hoping for the familiar gear sound of the lens extending. Daily I’m disappointment. I’d try to fix it, but I can’t even figure out how to pop the hood.

So … I’m gonna be really decisive and buy a new one. I would be stupid if I didn’t ask you all for advice. I know about CNET and all that jazz – those guys are geeks! I need advice from my own brethren.

Here are my current parameters, though any thoughtful advice maybe helpful to another.

>$200. Yep, that’s right, I’m a cheap-ass. But this is firm.

Some sort of stability, shake, DTs, Parkinsons, control -- if it works anyway.

Excellent macros with convenient manual settings – both goof proof and fine tunable.

That damn tripod hole better be in the middle.

Of course, the ability to shoot under low light, and all the other things you already know that I want to get great pics of food. My kids look great in any camera, I need one for me.

-ramon

I got a Pentax Optio M20 a couple of months ago - it may be a discontinued model (the shelf life of a digitial camera these days is - what? - about a week?) but it's pretty small, was only a little over $100 (without the memory card), and it's 7.0 megapixels. Plus, it has a food mode which automatically goes to macro (they claim 3.9" to 39.4" - that might be a bit liberal) or you can go to super-macro (down to 1.9").

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... CatId=2003

There may be better ones out there, but this works for me. Only minor downside is 3000 x 2300 pixel size - I have to take it into Photoshop to get it down to 550 or so pixels across for posting, e-mailing, etc.

And, the tripod mount is on the left-hand side on the bottom.

I have found some terrific advice at Ken Rockwell's digital photography site, here:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/2006-camera-guide.htm

Especially with articles like:

Which is Better: a $150 Camera or a $5,000 Camera?

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/150-vs- ... camera.htm

The $150 camera held its own with the $5k camera, thanks very much...

and

Why Your Camera Does Not Matter

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/notcamera.htm

He's a professional in that he gets paid for taking pictures, but he's practical and offers up some very good pointers. For a point and shoot he recommends the Canon A550 (replacing the A530 as of 2007) which is under $200. I'm a Nikon DSLR guy, but I like Canon point and shoots more... The key is to pick up a few and see which one "feels" best...

The Canon A550 at Newegg.com for $170 with 1GB SD card through 4/30

http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory ... al-Cameras

Marc

All the advice and links posted so far look right on. I would only add that from what I've been seeing lately, Panasonic has been really featuring image stabilization, and Fuji (Finepix series) is especially low-light oriented. (Not that the others may not duplicate both of these strengths. But, these makers seem to have staked out these particular feature niches to some extent.)

mchodera wrote:I have found some terrific advice at Ken Rockwell's digital photography site, here:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/2006-camera-guide.htm

Especially with articles like:

Which is Better: a $150 Camera or a $5,000 Camera?

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/150-vs- ... camera.htm

I'm a professional photographer and, like Ken Rockwell, a Nikon shooter, but the guy's, how shall we say, very questionable in his methodology and I disagree with most of his opinions. He's a controversial figure in the photo world to say the least.

He makes some good points--especially in his second article linked. Overall, a $3000 5D would be overkill for someone just taking food pictures or pictures of trees that don't need to be blown up bigger than web size. Most people do not need and expensive camera. The point and shoot will do fine. But I promise you, Ken Rockwell's claims notwithstanding, you will see the difference in a 12" x 8" print. And he overexposed the second image, so it's hardly fair to compare exposure and color.

But, yes, a $5000 camera set-up does not automatically take better pictures or make you a better photographer. I just think he cheats a little too much to make the point. Heck, I could probably take a picture with my iSight webcam that looks "better" on a web-sized image than a D2X that is purposely overexposed and washed-out. But as soon as I blow it up, you'll know which is which.

Personally, I would look at more neutral reviews at a site like:
http://www.dpreview.com

I agree with Binko wholeheartedly. Rockwell is a gadfly and his sometimes, oftimes hyperbolic flights are, well, uniquely his own. But he does make a few very good points in the two articles I linked to. Here's what I took away from them:

1. It's not the camera. And I think that's true, especially for stuff that will in all likelihood have this wonderful forum as it's sole medium of display. Pretty much any P&S camera will be fine. Get to a store, pick up ten or twenty until you find the camera you like best.

2. Take lots of pictures. Lots and lots of pictures. Three or four times as many as you would with a film camera. [This isn't really practical in a restaurant setting, I know, but it's the one thing that has elevated my picture taking game.] You'll discard a lot of them, but out of 100 shots of your child / pet / beachhouse you'll probably get 10 good ones and two fantastic ones. The corollary to this is: buy a big memory card, 1 or 2 GB.

3. Take your point and shoot with you everywhere. Opportunities for great pictures are out there waiting.

And www.dpreview.com is an invaluable tool, especially if you like to do really indepth analysis and comparisons before shopping. Their reviews are the best available, imho....

mchodera wrote:2. Take lots of pictures. Lots and lots of pictures. Three or four times as many as you would with a film camera. [This isn't really practical in a restaurant setting, I know, but it's the one thing that has elevated my picture taking game.] You'll discard a lot of them, but out of 100 shots of your child / pet / beachhouse you'll probably get 10 good ones and two fantastic ones. The corollary to this is: buy a big memory card, 1 or 2 GB.

Yes. Absolutely. Especially since you won't be taking shots with flash (because flashes tend to ruin food shots for me), and since fast (150x) 2GB SD cards are down to $25 and 4gb are around $50.

So, I was “raised Catholic” in the sense that I do not purchase items without thorough research, agonizing over all options, wrangling for the best price (thank god I don’t order the same way in a restaurant!). My parents have purchased for me something like a life-time subscription to Consumer Reports, and I read it religiously.

What this means is that I still have not purchased a new camera.

Those cameras that mostly fit my stated criteria are garbage. I guess I will have to compromise.

I’ve given up on the tripod mount being in the middle, but added that the camera needs an optical view finder.

For those of you that do or do not have image stabilization, how well has it worked? Am I overvaluing this feature?

I’d pretty much made up my mind to compromise with the very popular Canon A550, but when I held it in my hand it felt like a cheap piece of crap. What are your experiences?

Don’t tell me again that the camera doesn’t matter (well, you can if you really want to). I’ve been borrowing friends’ cameras and there are large differences in features, usability, quality, and the end product. The biggest difference has been in the speed. I’ve used cameras that are so slow I’ve forgotten what I shot by the time the picture is displayed (I know part of that issue is the card).

The camera I used and liked the best was a Sony Cybershot, but the model is out of my budget criteria. I’ve “pretty much” set a deadline of this week to get this done, so I’ll shut up about this shortly.

(Let me go check again to see if the old camera has repaired itself.)

-ramon

DPReview.com just gave the Fujifilm Finepix F31fd a "Highly Recommended" review here:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0704/07041 ... review.asp

It was singled out for its low-light capabilities, useable up to 800 ASA.

It's available here for $272:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... veda633-20

Don't know where the tripod mount is

mchodera wrote:Don't know where the tripod mount is

I'm not sure what the deal is with wanting a specific tripod mount position but FYI, the tripod mount is always directly below the exact center of the lens. This is standard camera design that means that if the camera is mounted on a tripod and you pan the tripod left of right, the lens stays on axis. If you're dead set on having a camera with a tripod mount exactly in the center, then your choice is limited to cameras that have their lenses directly in the center of the body. With film SLR cameras, that is pretty standard, but digital cameras are not limited to having their lenses exactly in the center.

mchodera wrote:DPReview.com just gave the Fujifilm Finepix F31fd a "Highly Recommended" review here:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0704/07041 ... review.asp

It was singled out for its low-light capabilities, useable up to 800 ASA.

It's available here for $272:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... veda633-20

Don't know where the tripod mount is

That's the camera that I wanted to get (actually, the F30) , but instead got the SD700 because nobody stocks the camera in-store, and I needed a compact point and shoot ASAP.

I would absolutely second your recommendation. This truly is a remarkable little point and shoot, and for something priced at around $250, a bargain. Yeah, I know it's a little over Ramon's budget, but the Fuji is worth saving and eating a couple fewer Polish sausages a week for.

There’s a lot to like about the Fuji F31fd, and thanks for pointing it out, mchodera. The low light sensitivity and onboard memory are great plusses. There is no optical view finder, though ((and the tripod hole is off center (it’s a running gag, Steve!)) Maybe I should wait for the F30 price to drop, with the intro of the upgraded model (I can’t afford to eat a couple fewer sausages a week, Binko.)

(B has dropped her DS lite countless times since Christmas. Finally, the left button stopped working. She was distraught when I told her that Mr Nintendo would gladly fix it, no questions asked, but it would take about four weeks. She ignored the problem, and last night it fixed itself!)

I just checked my old camera again – still doesn’t work.

Last night my college aged daughter reached for my scissors in their proper place. In her normal graceful way, she knocked her digital camera off my desk onto the floor. No visible damage, but that’s all it took for that camera to stop working. It is an Olympus FE-170, purchased for her at Christmas, without my consultation, and I hate it. Olympus will fix it under warranty, but I need to supply a copy of the receipt – the camera hasn’t even been out long enough to be out of warranty. Thanks a lot! (They will also accept a credit card statement showing purchase, and I’m sure I can at least fake that -- come to think of it, I’m sure I could fake a real looking receipt copy too. Additionally, they will let me trade-in my broken Stylus 300 for an upgrade, but I will pass.)

Bless her, that clumsy, unlucky child of mine. Of course, she did not put the scissors back in their proper place.

-ramon

[quote="Ramon" There is no optical view finder, though [/quote]

I find the optical viewfinders on P&Ses pretty much pointless. They're inaccurate and you can't see anything through them, anyway, being so small. YMMV.

(I can’t afford to eat a couple fewer sausages a week, Binko.)

Well, at least you have your priorities straight!

If you do find the F30 for your price, get one for me, too.

I'm not sure what the deal is with wanting a specific tripod mount position but FYI, the tripod mount is always directly below the exact center of the lens.

If the tripod mount is not in the center of the camera, mini-tripods, which are perfect for shooting food on a table, can be unbalanced. Especially when the legs are bent to point the lens down towards food.

Most small cameras especially the ultra slim cameras can't accomodate the mount hole under the lens.

I bought a new camera, a Nikon P3, at the beginning of the year, and it had everything I wanted except the mount position, which is not only off center (right at the edge of the camera), but not directly under the lens, offsetting any tripod panning - if you pan on the axis of the mount. Most tripods pan on the axis of the entire tripod head. For panoramas with those mini-pods, you can rotate the whole tripod.

I solve the mini-pod unbalanced problem with a quick mount adaptor, which makes it just balanced enough, and convenient to just snap on and off the pod.

And a word about viewfinders - I'd kill for one on sunny days, just to make sure I've got my subject framed, since I can't see my screen without an old-time photographers hood. I used to shoot for a living, and putting the camera up to my face is an ingrained habit, and I find myself still doing it and feeling silly.

My Canon SD800 just arrived, so I thought I'd post about my experiences of getting this $350-$400 camera for $283.

I did a simple search and came up with a site listing all of the different online prices. The first place I tried to buy from (I think the list price was $272) tried to push me into overpriced accessories, batteries and memory cards (i.e. $70 for a 1GB card), which I politely declined. The salesguy got a little snippy and then informed me that it was a "grey market" camera, which sounded, well, shady.

So I hung up and tried the next place: CamerAddict.com. The salesguy used the same sales tactics (pushing overpriced add-ons, warranties), I declined and asked if this was a refurbished or grey market camera. He said no. He did say that Canon wouldn't honor any warranty claims b/c it's sold thru an unsanctioned vendor (or somesuch business). Tired and frustrated with this whole search (I feel your pain, Ramon), I caved.

Post-ordering, I did more research (on resellerratings.com) and found that lots of people have posted not-so-nice things about this company (and others of its ilk) and the bait-and-switch tactic. What I purchased is an import model, which is noted in the product's accessories description on the web site.

Is getting an import model a shady deal? Not sure. Only time will tell, but if others have a similar experience or knowledge about import vs. domestic models, I'd love to hear about it for comparison.

Getting an import has two problems. One you already know about (no warranty in the US), the other are usually minor things regarding localization in the OS or the charger.

I always buy cameras from authorized resellers because of outfits like the one you ordered from. Too sketchy, too aggressive.

One last note: Dell had 20% a number of digital cameras recently, including the SD700IS and SD900, but not, apparently, the SD800. Anyway, the 700 was $280 and the 900 was $320. Dell and other retailers have coupons and sales somewhat frequently, and it's (to me) worth the extra $20 you spend by going with them instead of one of the brooklyn-based camera stores.

gleam wrote:localization in the OS or the charger

Uhhhhh, what does that mean? Now I'm scared. I briefly considered refusing delivery when I found out it was an import[ant](edit), but utter laziness won out.

crrush wrote:

gleam wrote:localization in the OS or the charger

Uhhhhh, what does that mean? Now I'm scared. I briefly considered refusing delivery when I found out it was an import[ant](edit), but utter laziness won out.

Well, it's unlikely but there's a possibility the menus won't be in English. I'm pretty sure that won't be the case. The only other question is if the battery charger shipped with the camera will be for US outlets

Two absolutely top-notch internet companies are:

www.bhphotovideo.com

and

www.adorama.com

I've dealt with both of these companies for more than ten years and I've never had a moment's trouble. They're both authorized dealers of the major brands and the warranties are US specific - I know from experience. My Nikon D70 had the "blinking green light of death" syndrome and I had to send it to NY for repair. All done under warranty, not a single problem. 'Cept it took five and a half weeks.

All of the menus are in English, so it seems like the only issue will be with warranty/repairs. It's a risk, but at this point...eh. It's a good lesson for next time, and maybe this post will keep someone else from getting suckered.

I've had some time to noodle around with the camera already, and the quality of pics is a VAST improvement from the ancient Fuji FinePix we had. I'm looking forward to my next post with pics!

crrush wrote:My Canon SD800 just arrived, so I thought I'd post about my experiences of getting this $350-$400 camera for $283.

Be very very careful with those (usually) Brooklyn camera shops. If the price looks too good to be true, it is. As you've discovered, it's basically a big bait & switch.

I've had no problem with grey market cameras. In fact, I usually buy grey market cameras and lenses. There's nothing shady at all about it.

Sorry Binko, please explain. I read your sentences as contradictory.

-ramon

Ramon wrote:Sorry Binko, please explain. I read your sentences as contradictory.

-ramon

My statements are thus:

1) Those cheap places like Best Camera 1, Stop 4 Camera, and the like are bait & switch operations. They lure you in with a cheap camera, and then insists you need to spend ridiculous amounts of money for batteries, straps, rechargers, and stuff that normally comes with the camera. If you resist their upsell, they claim it's out of stock, or some BS like that.

2) Gray market items are a separate issue. They are sold at reputable dealers like B&H, Adorama, Calumet Photo, Helix, etc. Gray market cameras are not covered by manufacturer's warranties, usually. They are covered by dealers warranties. They are also usually not eligible for rebates.

I should be clear that I generally buy grey-market lenses from B&H or Helix, but camera bodies I usually pay the extra hundred or two hundred dollars for the manufacturer's warranty.

edit: If you go to bhphotovideo.com, type in "canon 85mm" in the search box. On your search results you will see either "USA" or "Imported" next to the Canon brand name. "Imported" refers to gray market items. If you click on "imported", you will get a lengthy explanation of the difference between USA and gray market items. Here are some salient points:

What are the differences as far as a customer is concerned?

In most cases the difference between a USA import and a Grey Market, or imported product, is the cost of the item and the terms of the item’s warranty coverage. The products themselves are otherwise identical in every way. Occasionally the manufacturer might change a product name of model number to differentiate between products targeted for US distribution and products targeted for distribution elsewhere.

As a rule, Grey Market items cost less than their USA counterparts. The warranty of Grey Market items are often, but not always, the same as their USA counterparts. Specific details of product warranties vary by product and manufacturer.

If you should experience a problem with a product sold with a USA warranty, it can be sent to any of the manufacturer’s worldwide authorized service facilities for servicing. A "direct import" or grey market item would have to be returned to B&H Photo-Video if it required in-warranty attention.

Well, I pulled the trigger, and purchased a Panasonic FX10

Negatives:
-no optical view finder
-no manual settings
-I don’t know where the tripod hole is (!)

Positives:
-bought with shipping and full manufacturer warranty for $191
-lots of presets
-quality lens
-excellent stability control
-very good in low light situations
-very fast
-I like the color, size, style, etc
-Mrs Ramon likes it too

Thanks again for all your help. I’m sure you’ll all get to see whether I get any decent pics out of it.

I’m going to run out to the mailbox to see if it got here yet … after I check again to see if the old camera has spontaneously fixed itself.

-ramon

Reviving the thread because a year has gone by, which is about 1 1/2 generations in tech time.
I'm in the market for a $200--$250 item with first priority being excellence in low available light situations. The now legendary Fuji F30/31 is now gone and only available as a collector's item at about $400. It's replacement (f50) has been universally condemned for making worse the salient quality of its predecessor. (Otherwise a good camera, apparently.)

All that said, I read and read (dpreiew, etc.) and camera after camera gets raves for every new bell and whistle (face detection, anti-shake, mega zoom, etc.) EXCEPT low-light results. They all have the extra MPs, and so they all produce tons of "noise" at 400 ISO and up.

So, am I missing a category leader in this area? I see good reviews of Pentax Optio, Lumix, Sony Cybershot H3, various Canons. But no one is talking about good results in available light.

Anyone?

Mr. B,

I'm afraid you'll have to step up in price/class to get any appreciable improvement in either noise or ISO speed. Having said that, I've always been very impressed with the Cannons. My Powershot SD700IS served me very well for a couple of years. Many of the pictures I have posted here before last October were taken with that camera. Part of successfully using the small pocket digitals in low light is making friends with Photoshop or at least Photoshop Elements to fix up your exposure and color after the fact. Good luck with the search.

mrbarolo wrote:It's replacement (f50) has been universally condemned for making worse the salient quality of its predecessor. (Otherwise a good camera, apparently.)

Mr. B,

After a string of Canons I bought a Fuji F50fd, which the NYT's said was best in the under $300 class. (12/11/07). After using the Fuji for a couple of months I dearly wish I would have purchased the other camera I was considering, Canon SD1100 IS.

Just another data point.

Enjoy,
Gary

G Wiv wrote:

mrbarolo wrote:It's replacement (f50) has been universally condemned for making worse the salient quality of its predecessor. (Otherwise a good camera, apparently.)

Mr. B,

After a string of Canons I bought a Fuji F50fd, which the NYT's said was best in the under $300 class. (12/11/07). After using the Fuji for a couple of months I dearly wish I would have purchased the other camera I was considering, Canon SD1100 IS.

The destruction of the Fuji F-series due to marketing's (probably reasonable) conclusion that megapixels sells more cameras than image quality is really a shame. It's also why the F30s and F31s are selling for $600 on eBay, despite the fact that they're two generations old and only cost $300 at release.

Sorry you got duped, Gary... you're not the only one.

Dmnkly wrote:megapixels sells more cameras than image quality is really a shame.

Dom,

I'm not megapixel centric, learned long ago, in particular as I print out so few pictures, this was not a feature that was important to me. What sold me on the camera, which was a couple of bucks over $200 at buydig.com, was

NYT - Looking Beyond Megapixels

"For the last several years, Fuji has been spending big R.& D. dollars on nailing the low-light problem. “If we can put a man on the moon,” they evidently muttered, “surely we can design a pocket camera that takes nighttime and indoor photos without grain, blur or flash.”

This camera is it. The 12-megapixel photos are delightful; indoors, outdoors, with the flash or without. Even those poolside palm trees came out sharp and clear.

One probable reason is that the F50fd’s sensor is more than 50 percent bigger than those on most of the other cameras: 0.625 inch diagonal, versus 0.4. Now that’s a statistic — not megapixels — that matters in a camera.

More good news: the F50fd accepts standard SD cards in addition to the proprietary, expensive XD memory cards that Fuji has been pushing for years. How can this be the second-least-expensive camera of the batch?"

Enjoy,
Gary

G Wiv wrote:

Dmnkly wrote:megapixels sells more cameras than image quality is really a shame.

Dom,

I'm not megapixel centric, learned long ago, in particular as I print out so few pictures, this was not a feature that was important to me.

Oh, no, I wasn't saying you were going on megapixels. Just that Fuji built up the reputation of the F-series and then trashed the image quality, so people buying the F40 and F50 were getting an inferior camera to the earlier versions. A lot of people (reasonably) assumed that the image quality was at least as good on the later models, and I wonder if this reviewer was one of them. He's praising Fuji for focusing on image quality instead of megapixels, when the very camera he's reviewing is one that did exactly the opposite.

The megapixel comment was an indictment of Fuji marketing, not an assumption about how you chose your camera