An answer can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corked_wine

Thanks, deesher. Taint funny how ignorant of wine I am. Get it? Taint? Cork taint? [clears throat awkwardly] Anyway, I come here to get less ignorant, and it happens time after time.

ok here's my question of the day. In the anarchy that is Italian wine, is there really any use to DOC, DOCG and IGT anymore?

riddlemay, when they say a wine is "corked" it simply means that too much air got into the bottle (usually a failure on the cork's part) and the wine suffered from it. The telltale sign of a corked wine (other than an "off" smell) is a brownish look to the wine - if the wine is red, purply red, ruby red, it's OK. If it gets a brownish look to it, it's probably corked and I would send it back.

rosie wrote:riddlemay, when they say a wine is "corked" it simply means that too much air got into the bottle (usually a failure on the cork's part) and the wine suffered from it. The telltale sign of a corked wine (other than an "off" smell) is a brownish look to the wine - if the wine is red, purply red, ruby red, it's OK. If it gets a brownish look to it, it's probably corked and I would send it back.

Sorry Rosie, but I disagree with this. Older wines (like some of my '82 Bordeaux) have a brownish tinge, and yes, it's from a very slow exposure to air (oxygen, actually) over the years, and they're spectacular. They're not corked. I believe the conventional use of the term "corked" refers to TCA contamination, as mentioned upthread. Color of the wine alone is not an indicator that it may or may not be corked.

Also, just another note about being corked- I'm pretty good about telling when a wine is corked, but older wines should always be decanted for an extended period of time before just dumping the bottle. I meant to post this after Jim's post- I'm not entirely sure that you didn't smell cork on that second bottle. Sometimes older bottles will smell corked even though they aren't. They just need decanting.

jpschust wrote:Also, just another note about being corked- I'm pretty good about telling when a wine is corked, but older wines should always be decanted for an extended period of time before just dumping the bottle. I meant to post this after Jim's post- I'm not entirely sure that you didn't smell cork on that second bottle. Sometimes older bottles will smell corked even though they aren't. They just need decanting.

Possibly so, but this was not an old wine; maybe an '01, probably younger still ... and that incident at Firkin was a year or more ago. Nevertheless, it is true that, when the staff decided to play its little mind game with us by bringing out glasses poured from the second bottle (that was seemingly corked in the first instance), the corkiness appeared to have magically disappeared, such that we didn't even recognize it as the same wine. The fact that it sat for an hour between tastes may indeed have cleared up the false-corking flavor in that bottle. That said, the first bottle was clearly and unmistakably corked, and on that point, the Firkin staff agreed with us completely.

JimInLoganSquare wrote:

jpschust wrote:Also, just another note about being corked- I'm pretty good about telling when a wine is corked, but older wines should always be decanted for an extended period of time before just dumping the bottle. I meant to post this after Jim's post- I'm not entirely sure that you didn't smell cork on that second bottle. Sometimes older bottles will smell corked even though they aren't. They just need decanting.

Possibly so, but this was not an old wine; maybe an '01, probably younger still ... and that incident at Firkin was a year or more ago. Nevertheless, it is true that, when the staff decided to play its little mind game with us by bringing out glasses poured from the second bottle (that was seemingly corked in the first instance), the corkiness appeared to have magically disappeared, such that we didn't even recognize it as the same wine. The fact that it sat for an hour between tastes may indeed have cleared up the false-corking flavor in that bottle. That said, the first bottle was clearly and unmistakably corked, and on that point, the Firkin staff agreed with us completely.

If anything I'd guess it's some combination of the two, but never the mind. More importantly, if you were at a restaurant called Firkin why weren't you drinking...Firkin?

Oh yah, and anyone want to chime in about my DOC, DOCG, IGT question? Is this at all even useful at this point?

jpschust wrote:Oh yah, and anyone want to chime in about my DOC, DOCG, IGT question? Is this at all even useful at this point?

My opinion only - DOC vs. IGT means about as much as Appellation Controlee vs. Vin de Pays. If you're into gambling, I think there's a high probability that the better classification will be more expensive, there's a much lower probability (but probably better than 50/50) that wines with the better designation will be tastier wines.

I don't know as much about the Italian system, but I do know there are a fair number of French wines that could be labeled "Appellation Controlee," but choose not to, because as "Vin de Pays" they can label the wine as "Cabernet Sauvignon," "Merlot," etc. rather than the name of the village/region the wine comes from.

Here's a device to"uncork" corked bottles. I used it once and it actually worked on a corky 1986 Mouton (although it took a long time).

http://www.dream-taste-international.com/

jpschust wrote:More importantly, if you were at a restaurant called Firkin why weren't you drinking...Firkin?

Good question. Firkin is a casual restaurant that shares management, an interior wall and a wine cellar with the much more serious Tavern (formerly, Tavern on the Town), which was the fanciest restaurant in Libertyville when I lived there between 1998 and 2001, and may still be that.

NR706,

I stand corrected However, I'm not used to ordering higher end wines in bars or restaurants, and I've been served wine that had a brownish color and off odor that should not - hence, my definition of "corked". Still learning!!

I have a question, though I don't know if it's right for this thread. Sometime last week I went to buy a box of wine and didn't look carefully enough at what I grabbed. Turned out to be a Rhine wine, very sweet, very fruit-juicy. I am not enjoying drinking it at all. I wonder if it is feasible to salvage it by using it in cooking, in some stews and other dishes calling for white wine -- or is it just going to make them taste overly sweet too? It's one thing to waste a box of wine; it's another to use it to ruin a bunch of chicken and potatoes and leeks and mushrooms and other ingredients too. Can you give me any advice, home chefs?

Katie wrote:I have a question, though I don't know if it's right for this thread. Sometime last week I went to buy a box of wine and didn't look carefully enough at what I grabbed. Turned out to be a Rhine wine, very sweet, very fruit-juicy. I am not enjoying drinking it at all. I wonder if it is feasible to salvage it by using it in cooking, in some stews and other dishes calling for white wine -- or is it just going to make them taste overly sweet too? It's one thing to waste a box of wine; it's another to use it to ruin a bunch of chicken and potatoes and leeks and mushrooms and other ingredients too. Can you give me any advice, home chefs?

I'll give you the secret of what i do- whenever we don't finish a bottle which happens from time to time I have a container I keep at the back of my fridge that I just pout it into. It makes a mess of good reds that aren't wonderful when tasted like that but make perfectly great cooking wine.

Good tip, jp, thanks. I wonder if some of the sweetness of this stuff I have would wear off if it oxidized a bit.

Katie wrote:Good tip, jp, thanks. I wonder if some of the sweetness of this stuff I have would wear off if it oxidized a bit.

Doubtful- that stuff from a box is just junk. It's best used as paint thinner.

I'd use the box wine for cooking - just cut the sweetness with a little acid (lemon juice, vinegar, etc.) But not if it's going to be an "occasion" meal.

nr706 wrote:I'd use the box wine for cooking - just cut the sweetness with a little acid (lemon juice, vinegar, etc.) But not if it's going to be an "occasion" meal.

I guess I'll never understand this. Red box wine is like 8-10 bucks a box here, but a bottle of dolcetto on sale is usually the same price here (these are DC prices, no clue about the chicago market...yet) so why would I cook with a lesser wine when I have access to a better one?

jpschust wrote:

nr706 wrote:I'd use the box wine for cooking - just cut the sweetness with a little acid (lemon juice, vinegar, etc.) But not if it's going to be an "occasion" meal.

I guess I'll never understand this. Red box wine is like 8-10 bucks a box here, but a bottle of dolcetto on sale is usually the same price here (these are DC prices, no clue about the chicago market...yet) so why would I cook with a lesser wine when I have access to a better one?

I guess I don't understand. Boxes of cheap wine - but reasonably suitable for cooking - go for $9 - $15 around here, and contain 5 liters. Are you saying you can get five liters of bottled wine there for $8 - $10? That would be about $1.50 or less for a standard 750 ml bottle. Tell me where you're shopping and I'll be on the next plane!

sorry a little misapplied math, though i would say you can probably get down to 3-4 bucks a litre of wine that they are trying to move quickly and you'll end up with better wine than that which is in a box.

I would not use this wine for cooking unless the recipe specifically asked for a simple sweet white wine, obviously not Sauternes or the like. I can't think of an application off hand-the vast majority of basic recipes calling for white wine wouldn't ask for a wine of this nature. Adding it to a dish could result in unwanted sweetness, or a slight sweet-sour effect if mixed with acid. If that's in keeping with the spirit of the dish, of course, no problem. On the other hand, the old rule of thumb may apply here-if you can't drink it-don't cook with it.

It would be a nice ingredient--with apples and caraway seeds--to set up the 'kraut in a choucroute garni. Simmer for a while, then drain the kraut.

There's probably other uses, but I can't think of any at the moment...

Geo

nr706 wrote:

jpschust wrote:Oh yah, and anyone want to chime in about my DOC, DOCG, IGT question? Is this at all even useful at this point?

My opinion only - DOC vs. IGT means about as much as Appellation Controlee vs. Vin de Pays. If you're into gambling, I think there's a high probability that the better classification will be more expensive, there's a much lower probability (but probably better than 50/50) that wines with the better designation will be tastier wines.

I don't know as much about the Italian system, but I do know there are a fair number of French wines that could be labeled "Appellation Controlee," but choose not to, because as "Vin de Pays" they can label the wine as "Cabernet Sauvignon," "Merlot," etc. rather than the name of the village/region the wine comes from.

Italy is a minefield. You can get a bottle of Banfi Chianti Classico Reserva that is a DOCG (and crap) for $18, or a $100 Supertuscan that is organic and biodynamic, but is IGT.

Here's the deal. IGT (or even Vino di Tavola) doesn't mean something is going to be bad or good. It just means the winemakers are not following Italy's archaic and detrimental wine laws (the certain grapes that are required to be in a region's wine, the length of aging, etc.). In Italy you are punished if you want to try something new. Sometimes something new is a bad idea (growing, say, pinot noir in Tuscany). Sometimes it is exquisite (Sassacaia). For instance, for years and years Chianti growers were required to stick a whole bunch of inferior grapes in their wine (some of them white). The laws are changing, but slowly.

Is there an easy way to tell the good ones from the bad ones? Yeah. Ask the clerk where you're shopping. That's the only way I know.

As for the Vin de Pays vs. AOC question, it doesn't have anything to do with putting the varietal on the label. You can go to Burgundy and find bottles of Domaine Parent Bourgogne Rouge (AOC) that say Pinot Noir on the label.

France's wine laws are better thought out than Italy's. While you can't, say, grow cabernet in Burgundy and call it one, you wouldn't need to. They've had centuries of tradition of finding exactly what grows well in what part of the country, and so the AOC laws are to protect the integrity of the region. I pay attention to them. It doesn't mean that I won't try a Vin de Pays wine upon occasion (and enjoy them), but it does put me on guard when they're not.

That's basically what I thought. I'm just getting heavily into Italy and the geeky stuff coming from outside of Piedemonte and Tuscany.

Just to clarify, my question was not, should I buy a box of sweet white wine and use it for cooking?; it was, now that I have already bought this box of sweet white wine and do not enjoy drinking it, should I use it for cooking? It seems a shame to just pour it down the drain. But I've decided to take stewed coot's advice and not cook with it; I don't want to run the risk of ruining the flavor of the dishes.

I wonder if it'd be bad to pour it in the compost bin ...

Being a cheap Scottish bastard, I would never throw it out. At the very least you could use it as a medium for a sous-vide preparation of, say, salmon.

As I recall, this thread started out with a question about "legs". Here's a thread from a bulletin board addressing this question in great detail.
http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/sho ... p?t=131285