Printer's Row Book Fair

There are many cookbooks at the fair. I was there today and bought a 1954 version of the Antoinette Pope cook book, there are a few other Pope cookbooks at the Plaintales stall, including a 1948 version. The reason I mention this specific book is that Ron and I were looking for it and it was much more expensive elsewhere. This guy buys at library sales. (the owner, Tom will give a discount if you ask) There are lots of cookbooks in the stalls which tend to be past Harrison Street and not far from the Jewel sponsored tent where GWiv will be tomorrow.

Between Printer's Row and Little City Book Fair (Old Orchard) last night, we picked up a few cookbooks, including Marcella Hazan's "More Classic Italian Cooking", "Italian Baking" and "The 1000 Recipe Chinese Cookbook" by Miller.

The latter looked good at first glance, and may still be educational, but unfortunately none of the dishes have their Chinese names -- is "Kung Pao Chicken" what it calls "Stir-Fried Chicken with Chiles I" or "II" or is it "Deep-Fried Chicken with Chiles"? Neither has peanuts, by the way.

As mentioned elsewhere, our own G Wiv participated in a panel BBQ discussion at the 2007 Printer's Row Book Fair. Moderated by Bill Daley, Wiv, creator of the highly successful 5-Step WSM Method, was joined by Robert Adams of Honey 1 and Ray Lampe (a.k.a. Dr. BBQ).

It was an interesting discussion with a few mild flare-up disagreements between Wiv and Lampe. (What would a BBQ discussion be without a disagreement or two?).



My favorite quote of the day, when the panel was asked about BBQ sauces, Robert Adams mentioned how he doesn't know a thing about sauce, his wife does that, he doesn't really need it--it's all about the meat.



Afterwards, Wiv gave a insightful, funny, and educational cooking demonstration of his 7-pepper BBQ sauce and citrus marinated pork skewers:



Chef Wiviott and his protegee, Tony Mantuano:


LTHForum was well-represented in the crowd and many of us retired to Kasey's Tavern afterwards for excellent made-to-order (no mix) bloody marys. (nice find, jazzfood).

Best,
Michael

Kasey's Tavern
701 S Dearborn St
(312) 427-7992
http://www.kaseystavern.com/

Really, can you blame Gary? Dr. BBQ's rib recipe involves steam and the sauces he endorses contain l*quid sm*ke.

Sheesh.

gleam wrote:Really, can you blame Gary? Dr. BBQ's rib recipe involves steam and the sauces he endorses contain l*quid sm*ke.

Wow, those ribs aren't barbecued, they are candied. I need a dose of insulin after just reading the recipe. 1/2 cup sugar, 1 cup honey and 1 1/2 cups of apple juice? That is on top of the 3/4 cup of sugar in his dry rub, and before something called 'Big-Time BBQ Glaze' (probably corn syrup) and 2 cups of bottled "Honey BBQ" sauce are applied. God forbid you should have to actually taste the meat (or chew it).

I enjoyed meeting so many LTHers for the first time. And there was drama! The impassioned ideological schism between Gary and Ray Lampe had me reviewing in my mind's eye the great literary feuds of years past--Norman Mailer vs. Gore Vidal on Dick Cavett, Gore Vidal vs. William F. Buckley on ABC's coverage of the 1968 Democratic National Convention, Truman Capote vs. Gore Vidal (or was it Norman Mailer?) somewhere or other. In the end, though, before anyone towered over anyone else and threatened to plaster him "so you'll stay plastered" (cf. Buckley), or bit off his ear (cf. Mailer vs. Rip Torn), comity was found, detente achieved.

LTH,

The Printer's Row Book Fair was a blast and I appreciated support of the LTHer's who came out on a sunny summer Sunday.

Robert Adam's was his usual self, which is to say a terrific fellow who knows BBQ inside and out, Donna Pierce the perfect person to have moving the discussion along and fielding questions, Bill Daley a moderators moderator.

I respect Dr. BBQ's passion for BBQ and, even though he and I don't see eye to eye on any number of thing BBQ, he has a solid viewpoint and our differences made for lively, to say the least, discussion.

After a few (too many) drinks at Casey's where, by the way, they have a picture of Antonius above the bar, we headed to Honey 1 where Robert Adams raised the BBQ bar even higher than usual.

Michael, thanks for posting the pics.

Enjoy,
Gary

It was good to meet you too Gary and I enjoyed the discussion.

If you promise to leave it up I'll be happy to debate the blinder wearing BBQ snobs who are bashing me but if it'll be deleted I won't bother.

I've got to get ready for my close up on the WGN Noon news tomorrow.[/img]

I just bristle at calling steamed and grilled ribs barbecue.

Call it grilled, don't call it barbecued.

drbbq,

Polite discourse is always welcome. If you can dialogue within our posting guidelines, then please join the conversation.

Posts are rarely pulled around here. If people resort to insults, personal attacks or delve into religion and politics, then yes it will disapeer with a moderator note following explaining why. Of course BBQ is a form of religion, like pizza or ketchup on hotdogs, where people stake their their position and don't budge.

I was in the audience yesterday enjoying the exchange of opinions between the Professor and the Doctor. I stayed for every program except for children cooking. I learned quite a bit, which always makes my day.

Regards,

OK, but I gotta tell you that I feel I've already been attacked and baited, and both things are prohibited in your rules.

But here goes. I am a student of BBQ. Like it or not I speak about it as an expert. I cooked in the first Mike Royko Ribfest in 1982 nd have been cooking and studying BBQ ever since. I have been to most of the legendary restaurants around the country and I count many of the living legends of BBQ as friends. My credentials are real.

I also speak about it as a champion of many contests all around the country. Here's the bottom line. People like BBQ sauce. And they like sweet sticky ribs. In blind judging we have seen that sweet and tender ribs do very well from coast to coast. If you like yours chewy that's great. Matter of fact I do too and I rarely use sauce but who are any of us to tell someone that what they like is wrong. That rib technique has won many BBQ contests all over the country. It's not grilling. It's BBQ.

I am aware of all the claims of purism but like I said yesterday, IMO anything this side of a tree, a live hog and a hole in the ground is progress. It's just a matter of where you want the progress to end. I say let it keep on evolving.

I think it's safe to say that we have very different definitions of progress. Sweet and sticky isn't progress to me, but it is to you. Different strokes.

If it helps you sell more books, jars of rub and bottles of sauce, more power to you.

Can you please try to discuss without bashing me. I gave a real explanation, it wasn't a sales pitch.

Why do you feel sweet sticky ribs are wrong?

drbbq wrote:Here's the bottom line. People like BBQ sauce. And they like sweet sticky ribs. In blind judging we have seen that sweet and tender ribs do very well from coast to coast.

Ray,

I've got the utmost respect for you and what you have been able to accomplish. I've got to hand it to anyone who can find a way to make a living eating, cooking and talking about BBQ. Having said that, I'd qualify the statement above to say that it is true if you are trying to please contest judges who have come to expect sweet sticky sauce on their ribs. I understand as a competitor you have to cater to the taste of the judges, hence your love for the sauce (as it were). But as a artisan home cooker that doesn't compete or really care about pleasing the palate of the least common denominator in order to win a contest, I like my sauce not quite so sweet, a bit more spicy, and (always) on the side to be used sparingly.

This isn't a personal attack, it's just an opinion from someone who, like you, has solid BBQ cred. I'm not saying you're wrong, you just have a different opinion than me (and evidently some others on LTH Forum).

With arguments on the left and right, I'm going to bunt one up the center: while I can not abide the super-soft ribs where you can shake 'em off the bones (I watched one of my culinary heroes, Alton Brown, make them so on Good Eats, and I was very, very disappointed), I was brought up on Carson's Ribs, usually from the long-gone place on Niles Center in Skokie (note that they've traditionally been in Jewish neighborhoods: Skokie, Rogers Park, now Deerfield -- plus downtown -- when Jews want to break with the laws of kashrut, it was always right there).

I don't think they used wood, I'm not even sure they used charcoal. They were certainly basted, but they were never meat jello: a good chew, the kind of food that made you think "I'm a caveman" when you tore into them with your teeth. I'm guessing they're of the "fast-grilled" method.

I certainly enjoy BBQ of the traditional varieties (I have yet to get to Honey 1 or Smoque or any of the great south side joints, but I've had some here and there across the country), but this is what my taste buds use as a benchmark. Another was a little place in Northbrook called Jakes (unrelated to the Pizza chain), which made a great, chile-flavored sauce. They've been at least 30 years gone (Ira's has been there ever since), but I still remember it.

OK, I like sauce. I don't like a lot of the bottled stuff, which tends to be sweeter than catchup, with maybe a little yellow mustard stirred in, and some chili (note the spelling) powder. Open Pit was a standard in my parents' house, and to this day it gives me the willies. Do I have a favorite? No... because I have several bottles of mediocre stuff I haven't finished, including one bottled by a distant relation that is unfortunately undistinguished.

So, if I were to buy a commercial sauce, what's worthwhile? Yes, there's lots of styles, but are there any "Best Of"s for any of the variations?

Hi Steve,
I'll agree with everything except the part about my "Love for the sauce. (As it were)"
As I said, I like mine chewy and without sauce as well.

I just think tender ribs with sweet sauce are acceptable as BBQ. Just like loin back ribs. Those really aren't considered traditional BBQ in most of the country but many people like them so I'm good with it.

gleam wrote:Really, can you blame Gary? Dr. BBQ's rib recipe involves steam and the sauces he endorses contain l*quid sm*ke.

Sheesh.

Of course we both know that liquid smoke is a naturally made product that is a great addition to sauces in small amounts.

I'm sure we both know that a little steam doesn't ruin a great slab of ribs either. It just helps it along a little.

I sense this could get into a discussion of semantics. While I don’t doubt that sugary ribs, partially steamed by wrapping in foil with apple juice, might taste good to many palates, I would argue that it doesn’t fit the commonly accepted definition of barbeque. For example, this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbeque on barbeque has no mention of steaming or sugaring.

Certainly, Gary is much more a purist than I am. I once got a dirty look from Gary after I described how I’d added a few small logs to my gas grill, generated smoke at low heat, and after about five hours got what I thought were decent ribs. But it was the same principle of low and slow with smoke; it didn’t involve steaming or sugaring or boiling or microwaving or any of the other shortcuts I occasionally read about.

I do often see places that tout their “ribs” without using the term “barbeque;” I actually respect those places that honor the language and refuse to call their product “barbeque.” Just as I don’t like places that use surimi and call it crab, I don’t like places that claim to serve barbeque – at least as I and many understand it – for their boiled and grilled baby backs.

Just my 2¢ ... and probably not worth that much.

I’m sorry I missed the discussion yesterday; did Robert Adams weigh in on this?

did Robert Adams weigh in on this?

Yes, he was firmly in favor of the way he does things.

So would cooking with a water bath lover the heat source be wrong? Clearly the water that boils off turns to steam.

I wondered about that when I started cooking in the WSM. My feeling is that it probably contributes to keeping the meat a little more moist, but it's obviously at most a small fraction of the effect you get from wrapping hot meat in foil or some other enclosure for a long period; the concentration of steam upon the meat is clearly less, to judge by the effects.

Personally, I don't have a problem with any of these techniques in and of themselves, the proof is in the pudding. If the meat has gotten soft and gummy from being in foil for two hours, then foil is bad. If it still seems to have its integrity and some crispness, then foil isn't bad. Commercially speaking, any BBQ restaurant has to deal with holding product on some level and I have no problem with setting my expectations for the fact that they will have had to keep the meat warm in some fashion and it will have softened up a little as a result. As I said about sushi the other day here, sometimes fine is just fine-- not everything has to aim for and achieve perfection, especially the exact same form of perfection.

drbbq wrote:I just think tender ribs with sweet sauce are acceptable as BBQ. Just like loin back ribs. Those really aren't considered traditional BBQ in most of the country but many people like them so I'm good with it.

I agree with you here, too...unless the ribs are cooked over gas, boiled, broiled, baked or crock-potted. In that case, good as they may be, they can't be called BBQ in my book (sauce or no sauce). They should be called something else that more closely describes their actual cooking method. Calling it like it is can only help the "general public" learn the difference between real BBQ and "so-called BBQ". Education would go a long way toward making the real traditional BBQ that we all know and love be better recognized and ultimately demanded. That can only help pitmasters like Robert Adams in the long run.

For me, if wood or charcoal is not used, it can't be called BBQ. Broiled, baked, slow cooked & simulated are all acceptable descriptors. Of course, unlike you I'm not in a position, nor do I want to be, to preach the BBQ gospel to the world at large.

As far as store bought, it depends on what you're putting it on. I like Bone Suckin' Sauce thicker style on ribs. A bit sweeter than what I like on pulled pork, but the first ingredients are tomato sauce and apple cider vinegar. A *lot* of commercial sauces list high fructose corn syrup as the first ingredient. Bleh. I've found it at Whole Foods.

bonesuckin.com

I tried Geno's Spicy Barbecue Sauce once at a cooking demo by Southern Yankee bbq pits in Anderson, IN and it kinda knocked my socks off. There's no midwest distributor unfortunately but you can order it directly. I should get a bottle and see if the sauce I made to replicate it is in any way close in a side by side tasting.

http://sauce4u.com/

grace

JoelF wrote:So, if I were to buy a commercial sauce, what's worthwhile? Yes, there's lots of styles, but are there any "Best Of"s for any of the variations?

stevez wrote:

drbbq wrote:I just think tender ribs with sweet sauce are acceptable as BBQ. Just like loin back ribs. Those really aren't considered traditional BBQ in most of the country but many people like them so I'm good with it.

I agree with you here, too...unless the ribs are cooked over gas, boiled, broiled, baked or crock-potted. In that case, good as they may be, they can't be called BBQ in my book (sauce or no sauce). They should be called something else that more closely describes their actual cooking method. Calling it like it is can only help the "general public" learn the difference between real BBQ and "so-called BBQ". Education would go a long way toward making the real traditional BBQ that we all know and love be better recognized and ultimately demanded. That can only help pitmasters like Robert Adams in the long run.

For me, if wood or charcoal is not used, it can't be called BBQ. Broiled, baked, slow cooked & simulated are all acceptable descriptors. Of course, unlike you I'm not in a position, nor do I want to be, to preach the BBQ gospel to the world at large.

Boiling etc came up briefly yesterdayand was quickly dismissed. It's not worth discussing in a BBQ conversation.

I enjoyed the barbecue discussion tremendously, and wish I could have stuck around afterwards. Big thanks to Gary, Robert, and Dr. BBQ for sharing their knowledge. As the saying goes, you can't learn anything if you think you know everything.

grace

drbbq wrote:Of course we both know that liquid smoke is a naturally made product that is a great addition to sauces in small amounts.

Ray,

I vehemently disagree about li*uid sm*ke! For years I thought I did not like smoked food when, in fact, what I didn't like was li*uid smo*ke. Just the merest hint overtakes my body with a stale cigarette ash taste. I may be unusually sensitive to the stuff, but it is something I avoid on flavor as opposed to purely aesthetic reasons.

Far as foil, I am not a proponent of foil, meat tends to steam in the foil and, to my palate, often gives it a mealy, mushy texture.

People like what they like, but put me in the NO li*uid sm*ke camp.

Glad you are participating on LTH, welcome.

Enjoy,
Gary

drbbq wrote:Here's the bottom line. People like BBQ sauce. And they like sweet sticky ribs. In blind judging we have seen that sweet and tender ribs do very well from coast to coast. If you like yours chewy that's great. Matter of fact I do too and I rarely use sauce but who are any of us to tell someone that what they like is wrong. That rib technique has won many BBQ contests all over the country. It's not grilling. It's BBQ.

Ray,

I guess the point, which I made Sunday, is why take the time to cook tasty BBQ and cover, overpower, completely mask the lovely interplay of meat and smoke, with a pint of sweet goopy sauce.

And, I guess, the answer is most people don't take the time, by which I don't mean how long it takes to cook the meat, but length of time necessary to learn how to make top-notch BBQ, so the sauce acts as 'spackle' covering the flaws of mediocre meat.

Enjoy,
Gary

G Wiv wrote:

drbbq wrote:Of course we both know that liquid smoke is a naturally made product that is a great addition to sauces in small amounts.

Ray,

I vehemently disagree about li*uid sm*ke! For years I thought I did not like smoked food when, in fact, what I didn't like was li*uid smo*ke. Just the merest hint overtakes my body with a stale cigarette ash taste. I may be unusually sensitive to the stuff, but it is something I avoid on flavor as opposed to purely aesthetic reasons.

Far as foil, I am not a proponent of foil, meat tends to steam in the foil and, to my palate, often gives it a mealy, mushy texture.

People like what they like, but put me in the NO li*uid sm*ke camp.

Glad you are participating on LTH, welcome.

Enjoy,
Gary

Fair enough. I feel the same way about mustard although many people love it.
The proper use of foil can produce very good BBQ and I'm pretty sure I could cook you some ribs using it that weren't mealy or mushy.

Good to be here. I've been eating Chicago for a long time. I had lunch at Lawrences Fisherie's on Sunday and a Henry's Hot Dog yesterday.

G Wiv wrote:

drbbq wrote:Here's the bottom line. People like BBQ sauce. And they like sweet sticky ribs. In blind judging we have seen that sweet and tender ribs do very well from coast to coast. If you like yours chewy that's great. Matter of fact I do too and I rarely use sauce but who are any of us to tell someone that what they like is wrong. That rib technique has won many BBQ contests all over the country. It's not grilling. It's BBQ.

Ray,

I guess the point, which I made Sunday, is why take the time to cook tasty BBQ and cover, overpower, completely mask the lovely interplay of meat and smoke, with a pint of sweet goopy sauce.

And, I guess, the answer is most people don't take the time, by which I don't mean how long it takes to cook the meat, but length of time necessary to learn how to make top-notch BBQ, so the sauce acts as 'spackle' covering the flaws of mediocre meat.

Enjoy,
Gary

Gary,
Why would you think I endorse "...cover, overpower, completely mask the lovely interplay of meat and smoke, with a pint of sweet goopy sauce."?

I don't.

To me using sauce doesn't immediately mean a pint of goopy sauce that masks the meat. Bad meat is bad meat and too much sauce doesn't make anything better. As a cook I don't think too much of ANYTHING makes the food better. It's all about balance and using sauce is a legit part of that balance. I see that Mr. Robert puts sauce on his food unless you request it otherwise. I'd say he agrees with me here. FTR I would order the sauce on the side like I always do.

I spent about 18 hours cooking a 65 lb dressed hog the other day. I served sliced loin, sliced ham and chopped shoulder all enhanced by a little bit of Head Country BBQ sauce. This stuff was delicious and was nothing at all like you described.

I think we are closer to agreeing than we realize.

Ray

Mike G wrote:the proof is in the pudding.

Even more a propos, and correct, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Or, the proof of the jello, as it were.

Just trying to be pedantic about something other than BBQ. Count me as a BBQ reenactor with an open mind (and soon, an open pit).