Second Avenue Deli Re-Opening

Tomorrow's New York Times Magazine has a detailed article on New York's Second Avenue Deli, which closed in 2006, as a result of a landlord tenant dispute.

The deli is scheduled to reopen in November in a new home at 161 E. 33rd Street.

If you have access, you can read the article here|:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/magaz ... -t.html?hp

YourPalWill wrote:Tomorrow's New York Times Magazine has a detailed article on New York's Second Avenue Deli, which closed in 2006, as a result of a landlord tenant dispute.

The deli is scheduled to reopen in November in a new home at 161 E. 33rd Street.

If you have access, you can read the article here|:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/magaz ... -t.html?hp

Can I ask a really obnoxious question? What makes this deli any better than the multitude of other great Jewish delis in New York (and elsewhere)

Not an obnoxious question at all. It was, until it closed, one of the old time lower east side delis, along with Katz's, which made all of it's own corned beef and pastrami in house. Unlike, it's midtown counterparts (and Katz's until about ten years ago), Second Avenue was always very reasonably priced too.

In short: good quality in it's house cured meats and a good value.

Didn't the original location have the Yiddish Theater Walk of Fame on its sidewalks?

Yes it did. I hope that they'll do the same in their new location. It was one of the really charming things about the old place.

YourPalWill wrote:Not an obnoxious question at all. It was, until it closed, one of the old time lower east side delis, along with Katz's, which made all of it's own corned beef and pastrami in house. Unlike, it's midtown counterparts (and Katz's until about ten years ago), Second Avenue was always very reasonably priced too.

In short: good quality in it's house cured meats and a good value.

Unfortunately, the claim that Katz's or for that matter, ANY deli besides, surprisingly, Sarge's in Midtown making their pastrami in house is simply untrue.

According to this New York Times article written by Ed Levine back on Aug. 30 2003:

"... And Alan Dell, who owns Katz's with a partner, Fred Austin, told me he still cures his own pastrami in the store, before sending it out to be smoked. Two weeks later, Mr. Austin expressed some surprise at that claim. Katz's pastrami, he told me, is made in Brooklyn from scratch.
I asked him if I could visit the place.
''Only if I blindfolded you,'' he said."

Disturbingly, Levine goes on to claim:

"... much of the pastrami lore in New York City is just that. The two largest purveyors of kosher pastrami in New York are Hebrew National, now owned by ConAgra, and Empire National. The kosher-style business is divided among a few small outfits in Brooklyn and the Bronx."

If you call Katz's Deli or others as I did several months back and ask if they make their pastrami in house, they will make the false claim, like most other highly regarded delis there, that they do.

Up until their closure in January 2006 (because of a rent dispute), Second Avenue Deli used Empire National in Williamsburg, Brooklyn to make their pastrami. Although these delis have others actually curing and smoking it, they often times provide these operations with their own unique curing recipes.

2003 NY Times Pastrami Article

PIGMON wrote:Although these delis have others actually curing and smoking it, they often times provide these operations with their own unique curing recipes.

It's my opinion that if a deli is simply outsourcing the labor, but the product is made to their unique custom recipe (assuming it is perfectly executed by the packing house), it might as well be able to be called "made in house" even though, strictly speaking, it isn't. If, on the other hand, the pastrami is simply being ordered from one of the two providers from a catelogue...well, that's another story.

YourPalWill wrote:It was, until it closed, one of the old time lower east side delis, along with Katz's, which made all of it's own corned beef and pastrami in house.

stevez wrote:It's my opinion that if a deli is simply outsourcing the labor, but the product is made to their unique custom recipe (assuming it is perfectly executed by the packing house), it might as well be able to be called "made in house" even though, strictly speaking, it isn't. If, on the other hand, the pastrami is simply being ordered from one of the two providers from a catelogue...well, that's another story.

Then, by your definition of what constitutes "in house", Steve, Will's all too commonly heard claim that Katz's Deli and Second Avenue Deli are somehow unique since they're the only ones making an "in house" product anymore would be completely meaningless. Virtually any respectable NY deli serves up "in house" corned beef and pastrami by your guidelines.

Into the Fire, a Food Network show that "takes viewers behind the scenes and into the heart and heat of America’s most renowned restaurants on their busiest nights," did a segment on Carnegie Deli. Interestingly, Carnegie has their own production facility in New Jersey where they make corned beef and pastrami for the deli.

While not strictly made in-house, this is certainly a step beyond outsourcing a recipe to a packing house.

Enjoy,
Gary

PIGMON wrote:
Then, by your definition of what constitutes "in house", Steve, Will's all too commonly heard claim that Katz's Deli and Second Avenue Deli are somehow unique since they're the only ones making an "in house" product anymore would be completely meaningless. Virtually any respectable NY deli serves up "in house" corned beef and pastrami by your guidelines.

I don't think that's necessarily true. By my guidelines, it could only be called "in house" or "homemade" or "our very own" if it is a unique preparation not available anywhere else. The closest example I can think of is Uncle John's hot links. While they are not made by Mack on premises, they are made to his recipe for him by a packing house and they are not sold to anyone else (unless Mack says it's OK). It's a proprietary product that just happens to be made elsewhere.

stevez wrote:

PIGMON wrote:
Then, by your definition of what constitutes "in house", Steve, Will's all too commonly heard claim that Katz's Deli and Second Avenue Deli are somehow unique since they're the only ones making an "in house" product anymore would be completely meaningless. Virtually any respectable NY deli serves up "in house" corned beef and pastrami by your guidelines.

I don't think that's necessarily true. By my guidelines, it could only be called "in house" or "homemade" or "our very own" if it is a unique preparation not available anywhere else.

Almost every major deli I know of in New York gives their own unique curing recipe to their particular purveyor. The impact a deli has on these proveyors with regard to the many other variables involved in the pastrami making process (salinity levels for brining, how long they brine, smoking times, etc.) is questionable.

That's why I say the claim that Katz's and Second Avenue Delis being the only remaining "in house" delis is untrue.

PIGMON wrote:Almost every major deli I know of in New York gives their own unique curing recipe to their particular purveyor. The impact a deli has on these proveyors with regard to the many other variables involved in the pastrami making process (salinity levels for brining, how long they brine, smoking times, etc.) is questionable.

That's why I say the claim that Katz's and Second Avenue Delis being the only remaining "in house" delis is untrue.

As I said upthread:

made to their unique custom recipe (assuming it is perfectly executed by the packing house)

And for me, that's where some definitions are in order. If I were to give someone my recipe for making pastrami, it would be not only the cure, but also the length of time I want it brined and how long and at what temp using which wood I would want the brisket smoked. My assumption has been that this is what the delis and the packers were doing.

If all the NYC delis are doing is telling the packers what spices to use for the cure and then leave the rest of the process to the factory, that's not really the same thing as simply outsourcing the labor as I outlined above.

Pigmon, you have obviously done much more research on this than I have and assuming what you say is correct (which I have no reason to doubt), then places like Katz are really perpetuating a lie...especially if they claim that the pastrami is made on premises (which is another completely different issue as well).

stevez wrote:Pigmon, you have obviously done much more research on this than I have and assuming what you say is correct (which I have no reason to doubt), then places like Katz are really perpetuating a lie...especially if they claim that the pastrami is made on premises (which is another completely different issue as well).

I tried to gather information about this very subject several months back and found most delis and purveyors to be highly tight-lipped about almost every question I had about their pastrami making process. Generalities, yes, but never specifics. So, for me to sound definitive or certain about to what degree these purveyors are involved in each deli's specific pastrami demands (or even possible demands) is incorrect.

Thanks, Steve.

So they are going to re-open in Murray Hill? Interesting...I really didn't think they would ever open again.

I read that they re-opened in the middle of December. Has anyone been since then?

My parents were there yesterday and said it was great.