Arun's Vs. TAC Quick

No contest. TAC Quick.

Had a group dinner at Arun's Wednesday, which thankfully was on other people's money. VI's previous post is dead-on; Rob, if you think your food was lukewarm when it was just you and the family, imagine what it's like with a party of 30 people. Not much to add; we missed the experience of the one-bite salad but instead were treated to the world's smallest crabcake. The only thing that wowed us was the artistry of the vegetable carvings, but I would have been mightily disappointed if my money was at stake. So to remove the memory, we shelled out a mere $40+ to feed three people wonderfully at TAC Quick last night.
>>Brent

I was at TAC last week, and I think I bored my dining companions to death with my constant comparisons between TAC--outstanding--and Arun's--mediocre to the extreme, so I was not quite sure if I should pip in with this thread.

But it's Monday morning and I am having a hard time moving forward with work...

YES!

I will say that the presentations, for the most part are nicer at Arun's, and there's those fancy carrots (which I'm told I cut slightly into the profit margain by having the temerity to eat).

TAC beat Arun's in three ways that bely the price points. First, the cooking was just so much better at TAC. The shredded chicken with crispy basil on preserved egg, a dish much discussed on this board, was as good as advertised, just so expertly seasoned and cooked. The fish maw salad, well what would make you care a lot about a fried air bladder if the dressing was not so sublime, an exact balance of sweet, sour, and hot sensations. Second, TAC used a larder so much more interesting than Arun's: wild boar, tripe, salted fish, dungeness crabs, fatty pork, lean pork, whole chicken, shredded chicken. Andy the chef at TAC took full advantage of the raw ingredients, each preperation matching the base. Finally, there was an intensity of flavor, a specialness that you expect in truly fine restaurants most exemplified by the hot and sour soup with liver and tripe. This dish got you coming and going with dried chiles and fresh chiles and the soup destroyed any sense of gaminess to the offal, leaving it only intense.

At TAC, there are a few things that I am more than willing to forgive given the price point. Erik M, the liason between LTH and TAC acted as a reserve waiter, and without him, things would have been a bit more bumpy. The dungeness crabs were very, very fresh, surprisingly fresh, but too cooked in my opinion (although this is in the Thai style). But again, when the total bill, with huge tip, comes out to $20 compared to $85, well that sez it all.

Rob

Vital Information wrote: The fish maw salad, well what would make you care a lot about a fried air bladder if the dressing was not so sublime, an exact balance of sweet, sour, and hot sensations.

VI,

I must say the charms of the main ingredient in fish maw salad elude me as well. I do like the salad well enough, but the maw itself almost seems an empty component; it adds crunch, which is good, but the flavor is so subtle, I guess I just don't see it as much more than a largely flavorless Cheet-o. Maybe the textural contribution is enough.

Hammond

More:

Back after my dinner at Arun's, I was gonna do a post on my fantasy of $85 Thai. I still might (duck confit laab still being a key dish), but in thinking about TAC's hot and sour soup with liver, I realized how good this would be with nuggets of foie gras. There's a hint for Mr. Arun.

Rob

I can hardly claim to be a connoisseur with regard to Thai cuisine but over the years I've had my share of dinners at Thai restaurants in Chicagoland (and elsewhere). Without doubt, the best Thai meal I've had was last week at TAC, where thanks to the leadership of Erik M. and with the congenial company of several other LTHers, I got to sample a number of really delicious dishes which I had not had before. I eagerly look forward to returning to TAC.

On the other hand, I have also been to Arun's (admittedly, only once!), and my experience there was basically negative. This was several years ago and I no longer remember lots of details but what I do remember stands out clearly: a) the meal was ruined for me by not one but several bad, 'iodiney' shrimp; b) I thought the meal was overpriced in a basic sense and, given the shrimp experience -- something which simply should not happen at any restaurant that pretends to be more sophisticated than the Western Avenue Shrimp House -- I felt ripped off. Of course, it could have been just very bad luck for me that night at Arun's but, given the difference in price between Arun's and TAC and the quality of the cooking demonstrated on my first visit to TAC, there's no question where I want to return.

Antonius

P.S. I liked the fish maw a lot, though I suppose, David, you're right; it doesn't have all that much flavour. But it adds a psychological dimension that Cheet-o's just don't have for me.

Antonius wrote:
On the other hand, I have also been to Arun's (admittedly, only once!), and my experience there was basically negative. This was several years ago and I no longer remember lots of details but what I do remember stands out clearly: a) the meal was ruined for me by not one but several bad, 'iodiney' shrimp; b) I thought the meal was overpriced in a basic sense

With Arun's, it always seems to come back to price, which is understandable because, perversely, this place has a reputation primarily because it charges a lot. It's kind of insane. Arun's food, in the eyes of many, cannot compete with the offerings at a multitude of other Thai joints in Chicago, but it's widely known largely because it's overpriced.

Years ago, a mentor of mine suggested that I raise my rates because if people are paying more for your services, they will just assume your services are better. The same psychology, I believe, is at work at Arun's. It just 'has to be' good because it's pricey.

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:

Antonius wrote:
On the other hand, I have also been to Arun's (admittedly, only once!), and my experience there was basically negative. This was several years ago and I no longer remember lots of details but what I do remember stands out clearly: a) the meal was ruined for me by not one but several bad, 'iodiney' shrimp; b) I thought the meal was overpriced in a basic sense

With Arun's, it always seems to come back to price, which is understandable because, perversely, this place has a reputation primarily because it charges a lot. It's kind of insane. Arun's food, in the eyes of many, cannot compete with the offerings at a multitude of other Thai joints in Chicago, but it's widely known largely because it's overpriced.

Years ago, a mentor of mine suggested that I raise my rates because if people are paying more for your services, they will just assume your services are better. The same psychology, I believe, is at work at Arun's. It just 'has to be' good because it's pricey.

Hammond

Well, there's this famous story about an Emperor and a robe that's kinda see-thru.

You know the other day, by accident, from my blog (which is my home page), I meant to click on LTH, but clicked on my link to Chowhound's link page (where I found out my blog is no longer linked). Anyways, as I was poking around that page, I found this:
http://www.michaelandrochellessite.com/ ... icID=aruns

A review of a meal at Arun's in 2000. Now, on one hand, my meal at Arun's in 1994 was pretty mediocre too, but perhaps, in 2000 it was a good place, 'cause the pictures do look better than the food I had.

Now, I think the over abundance of dumplings in this meal is not a sign of real Thai cooking, rather a nod to fashion, but some of the dumplings do look cool, and again, more impressive than the ones we had, which tasted like average dim sum. And whatever that un-identified cube thing is, it looks interesting and special.

I say all this not to defend Arun's per se. I am, however, willing to think that at times, Arun's puts out a nice spread. Mostly, I want to advocate that as a concept, I am 100% in agreement with Arun's. I really would like to partake in an $85 Thai meal, but one really worth the $85.

Rob

Vital Information wrote:Well, there's this famous story about an Emperor and a robe that's kinda see-thru.


I say all this not to defend Arun's per se. I am, however, willing to think that at times, Arun's puts out a nice spread. Mostly, I want to advocate that as a concept, I am 100% in agreement with Arun's. I really would like to partake in an $85 Thai meal, but one really worth the $85.

Rob

VI,

The joke about the Emperor was that he was basically fooling himself; Arun's charade seems to fool a lot of the people a lot of the time.

There is no reason why a Thai meal could not be a "value" at $85 or more. I've just never seen such a thing in Chicago, but it's possible, and I would love to see it.

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:

Vital Information wrote:Well, there's this famous story about an Emperor and a robe that's kinda see-thru.


I say all this not to defend Arun's per se. I am, however, willing to think that at times, Arun's puts out a nice spread. Mostly, I want to advocate that as a concept, I am 100% in agreement with Arun's. I really would like to partake in an $85 Thai meal, but one really worth the $85.

Rob

VI,

The joke about the Emperor was that he was basically fooling himself; Arun's charade seems to fool a lot of the people a lot of the time.

There is no reason why a Thai meal could not be a "value" at $85 or more. I've just never seen such a thing in Chicago, but it's possible, and I would love to see it.

Hammond

Next athon: fables and food. 24 hours of food analogies hosted by LTH's resident college professors.

But is not the point of the Emperor's New Clothes that all of the King's subjects were willing to believe too. As Ron Susskind pointed out a few weeks ago, that the King can make his own reality?

Right now, are not we like the little boy, remarking about the lack of clothes on the Emperor? The question is, when will other's catch on?

Rob

Vital Information wrote:
But is not the point of the Emperor's New Clothes that all of the King's subjects were willing to believe too. As Ron Susskind pointed out a few weeks ago, that the King can make his own reality?

Right now, are not we like the little boy, remarking about the lack of clothes on the Emperor? The question is, when will other's catch on?

Rob

I think the point is that the Emperor's subjects were too cowed to speak the truth. If a person has just dropped a few hundred bucks on mediocre Thai food, that person might be hesitant to speak the painful truth.

David "Explicating Mythical Metaphors/Fables/Fairy Tales since 1969" Hammond

I rather feel that I must be the holdout juror in this debate. But so I am. As it happened I was at TAC this past weekend, and I found what I ordered good, but no better (Hainan chicken, chinese sausage and barbeque pork loin over rice, and duck with noodles - all off the Thai menu). Good, good, and better than good - but not comparable to Spoon, Erewan, or, dare I say it, to Arun's.

I have had friends visiting Chicago who have wanted the ultimate - unique - Chicago dining experience and we went to Arun's - and I would do so again. Now in terms of cost/pleasure unit, perhaps Arun's does not stack up to Spoon (for me, it stacks up to TAC), but the experience of dining at Arun's is sublime and most of the dishes are exquisite.

Taste is inherently subjective - don't we know! - and who can argue with shrimp that are "off," but I feel it is important to defend Arun's as one of Chicago's great restaurants. If on this list I am in the minority, I am not alone. And compared to $300 for a Parisian meal, a real bargain!

GAF,

I'm glad there's a few dissenting voices in a debate that seems overwhelmingly hostile towards Arun's. The place is definitely a force to be reckoned with; it's a reminder that some Thai food COULD justly demand a higher price.

Hammond

GAF wrote:I rather feel that I must be the holdout juror in this debate. But so I am. As it happened I was at TAC this past weekend, and I found what I ordered good, but no better (Hainan chicken, chinese sausage and barbeque pork loin over rice, and duck with noodles - all off the Thai menu).

All of the dishes that you chose are jaan diaw, or "one plate" meals. They are meant to be eaten alone -- by themselves, and by one diner. Given this limitation in their design/conception, I do not believe that they can be successfully slotted into a meal shared by multiple diners. Especially, that of those diners that give some thought to the artful composition and balance that is inherent in a great Thai meal. I should say, GAF, that the limited conversation that you and I have had on the subject of Thai food sure had me believing that you counted yourself amongst this group of diners.

That aside, I ask you, GAF, what is this board good for if not for opinions? Anyone reading along would know the roster of T.A.C. menu items that have repeatedly received high praise. These would include the Isaan sausage, the grilled pork neck, the fried chicken, the green curry over an omelette, the fish maw salad, the sour tamarind curry with Accacia leaf omelette, the minced chicken and preserved eggs, the star anise braise, the pork hock, the tamarind curry with pork loin and water spinach, the boar curry, etc. I, for one, find it very odd that not one of these items made your list.

I hosted two private functions at TAC, this past week. Each event included eight diners. With Andy's help, I crafted two menus that go a long way towards the goal of beauty in balance.

Menu One
khaw muu yaang - grilled pork neck
kai thawt - fried chicken
yam kra-phao plaa - fish maw salad
phat phak ka-naa plaa khem - Chinese broccoli s/f with salty fish
tom saep - sour and spicy soup with tripe and liver
kra-phrao krawp kai raat khai yiaw mua - minced chicken and deep-fried holy basil over preserved egg
phat phet muu paa - wild boar curry fry
kaeng muu tay poh - tamarind curry with pork loin and water spinach
puu phat phong karii - whole Dungeness crab in curry sauce*
khanom maw kaeng - Thai "custard"
khao tom mat - sticky rice and banana, steamed in a banana leaf


puu phat phong karii


Menu Two
khaw muu yaang - grilled pork neck
kai thawt - fried chicken
yam kra-phao plaa - fish maw salad
phat phak ka-naa muu krawp - Chinese broccoli s/f with crispy pork
khao tom plaa - rice soup with Catfish and Chinese celery
kra-phrao krawp kai raat khai yiaw mua - minced chicken and deep-fried holy basil over preserved egg
phat phet muu paa - wild boar curry fry
kaeng muu tay poh - tamarind curry with pork and water spinach
plaa chawn thawt ma-muang - whole deep-fried Mudfish with shredded mango sauce**
khanom maw kaeng - Thai "custard"
khao tom mat - sticky rice and banana, steamed in a banana leaf


plaa chawn thawt ma-muang

In summary, I would say that your T.A.C. menu selections, in combination with your favourable remarks about Arun's, clearly indicate that, not only is it your preference to leave this "heavy lifting" to others, but, additionally, you are best served by doing so.

Erik M.

* A special request of mine.
** Another special request of mine.

I certainly agree that this board is for opinions - all of ours. And I grant that your knowledge of Thai food outweighs mine, and I certainly would not turn down an opportunity to attend a dinner that you hosted (hint, hint).

Yet, still, the dishes that I felt less than passionate about were all dishes that TAC chose to serve, and so as a diner I can evaluate. And I would hold to my evaluation if they were eaten one at a time. As a former (very former) restaurant critic, I believe that a restaurant is known by what they choose to serve. It is certainly reasonable for diners to examine the preferences of others on the board (and I certainly have to my great benefit - most of the time), but one can evaluate a restaurant on all of what they serve. I certainly did not suggest that I would never return to TAC, but neither will I back away from my warm feelings for Arun's.

You know, this brings up kind of an interesting point. I mean, I've started to understand, just a little, how a Thai menu is put together. But I guess I'd still order like a moron as often as not, especially with just 2-4 dishes split between Kate (who has relatively conservative Thai tastes) and me.

But there's something to be said for a restaurant that pieces the meal together for you. Wouldn't it be nice if one of our really good neighborhood Thai places, like Spoon or TAC Quick, would offer suggestions on the menu for putting together a meal? That would be asking a lot at Spoon, I suppose, where so many single dishes don't even appear on the menu. But it seems like it might fit at TAC Quick. Erik, maybe you could suggest as much to Andy?

It could be done either as prix fixe or a pick one from x number of categories. This might not have really wide appeal, but I don't see much downside either, from the restaurant's point of view, and it might help people gain a little more appreciation for the cuisine.

I think that the more familiar you become with a foreign cuisine (this also came up in the Friendship Chinese thread), the more difficult it is to remember how foreign it still is to everyone else. I mean, I bet the majority of TAC Quick diners--any Thai place, really--order a dish per person and each person eats what he or she ordered. The small plate trend will surely alter that attitude some, but I still think that menu suggestions for a more balanced meal would be cool.

Cheers,

Aaron

Aaron, that is an excellent idea!

I agree with Erik that a great Thai meal often comes from the totality of dishes, not from single plates. Yet, as Aaron alludes, it is often difficult for people to order this up on their own. It would be great for Spoon or TAC or Thai Avenue to offer a set menu. If nothing else, it gives an impriteur of haute cuisine that, as noted above in this thread, comforts people into believing.

Of course I have to add, that my recent meal at Arun's was hardly a balance of flavors and textures. As I and others have already noted, Arun's is essentially a riff on the Thai menu as first introduced into Chicago in the early 80's. If your neighborhood place offered pad Thai, Arun's would make it better; if your neighborhood place offered Mussaman beef curry, Arun's would make it better; if you liked to order not very Thai-like dumplings and spring rolls, Arun's would give you better constructed dumplings and spring rolls. The construction of the meal at Arun's did not play up to traditions of balance between flavors and textures but rather as a balance between dishes associated with the Thai food cannon in Chicago.

To me, places like Spoon, TAC, Yum Thai lean to Thai food as found in the Thai-Thai cannon. They are working to make the food taste as it would in Thailand, not working to enhance Chicago-Thai. Sure, this is an esthetilogical question because the Chicago-Thai food at Arun's can be cooked better/be more delicious regardless. With Aaron's idea of set meals, people could, perhaps, better evaluate which style they prefer.

GAF, I admire you for holding out against the onslaught. It would be unfortunate if the effort here to puncture the professional critics' groupthink on Arun's resulted in a reverse groupthink in which no one dared defend it or claim that it measured up to its rep. There should never be orthodoxy on any restaurant; every opinion is valuable and worth hearing.

That said, I can't speak for Arun's but TAC is a great Thai restaurant, capable of outstanding and mind-blowingly good flavors which you'd be happy to encounter in any 4-star joint. Despite the fact that I attended one of Erik's dinners, I can't say much about whether you get more out of these dinners when they're balanced and all that; I'll just take Erik's word for it that we did. But several of the dishes we had were simply outstanding individually, bright and pungent and totally delicious, and I highly recommend to anyone that they try to order whatever they can talk them out of from the things Erik has descibed, or failing that, order several things off the specials board and see what's new. Arun's may or may not be worth $85 but there's absolutely no question in my mind that TAC is a steal at $25 (or less, even, if you order like a normal person).

GAF, now you're making me question my sticking up for Arun's because I thought TAC Quick was so much better than Spoon. So much better. But I'll hold out with you. I like Arun's, though it's enough of a different experience from the typical Thai place that the comparision is difficult. It's like comparing a taqueria, even a very good one with a broad menu, to Topolobampo. Or a bistro to Trotter's. And I'm one who thinks that the pure pleasure of the food at a bistro can be much better and often is than a Trotter's. But there are other issues that enhance the experience and the food.

Ask yourself this question: is the sushi paper at Moto better tasting than even mediocre sushi? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that that dish isn't a good one, if that makes sense.

PS: I will always deny the claim that taste is purely subjective, but that's neither here nor there, but we do share a biology, cultures, traditions, and a language for talking and reasoning about these things. So don't cop out by saying it's all subjective. Justify your love!

extramsg wrote:GAF, now you're making me question my sticking up for Arun's because I thought TAC Quick was so much better than Spoon. So much better. But I'll hold out with you. I like Arun's, though it's enough of a different experience from the typical Thai place that the comparision is difficult. It's like comparing a taqueria, even a very good one with a broad menu, to Topolobampo. Or a bistro to Trotter's. And I'm one who thinks that the pure pleasure of the food at a bistro can be much better and often is than a Trotter's. But there are other issues that enhance the experience and the food.

Ask yourself this question: is the sushi paper at Moto better tasting than even mediocre sushi? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that that dish isn't a good one, if that makes sense.

PS: I will always deny the claim that taste is purely subjective, but that's neither here nor there, but we do share a biology, cultures, traditions, and a language for talking and reasoning about these things. So don't cop out by saying it's all subjective. Justify your love!

They'll have to pry this topic off my keyboard as I head off to the great blog in the sky...

The thing about Arun's, I thought, is that as a concept, i was no diffenent than any other Thai place. The menu at Topolobamo to La Quebrada or any other neighborhood joint, is totally different. Barely an overlap. Yet, Arun's served me a lot of things I could have got at any Thai restaurant, just in gussied up versions: pad thai, mussaman beef, chicken with ginger, a dumpling, fish cake. In fact, perhaps the most original dish of the night was the one bite salad, and while I found Arun's more authentic with the betel leaf, I found it not as stunning as Spoon's. Moreover to pile on just for the heck of it, Arun's sauced their dishes a lot, with the same bottled sauces found in a lot of neighborhood Thai places.

I just did not find that Arun's offered a level of sophistication that other Thai places did not.

Rob

Ask yourself this question: is the sushi paper at Moto better tasting than even mediocre sushi? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that that dish isn't a good one, if that makes sense.

The dish ISN'T a good one! It's not a dish, first of all-- it's a stupid stunt that vaguely resembles food. Second, it SUCKED, it tasted terrible, it made me drink half of my overpriced glass of wine to get rid of its filthy taste. It was culinarily vile and conceptually idiotic.

Just wanted to mention that.

If that's mentioning, warn me before you yell it

But it's just a stand-in example. Think of a hypothetical example if you wish. Keller's salmon cones, eg, or the use of foams.

Mike G wrote:

Ask yourself this question: is the sushi paper at Moto better tasting than even mediocre sushi? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that that dish isn't a good one, if that makes sense.

The dish ISN'T a good one! It's not a dish, first of all-- it's a stupid stunt that vaguely resembles food. Second, it SUCKED, it tasted terrible, it made me drink half of my overpriced glass of wine to get rid of its filthy taste. It was culinarily vile and conceptually idiotic.

Just wanted to mention that.

Perhaps you had the wrong wine-pairing.

A

So, would Andy fry up a mudfish or steam dungenness crab for anyone with proper advance notice?

The mudfish almost looks to vicious to eat. I'm sure I'd put my qualms aside if it were in front of me. But I'm not wading into any muddy Thai streams anytime soon.

rien

Beware of the mudfish....

Mudfish=Snakehead, current scourge of midwestern waters (along with Asian Carp, which jump out of rivers and knock out boaters and other mean stuff). These critters, along with water spinach/ong choy/rau muong/morning glory are invasive pests that you can find in any Asian neighborhood (even in Florida or TX where ong choy is illegal -- hey, just bring in more Asian carp to eat it. ha.). There was a "Chicago Works" about an ecological Carp study. At the end of the show, they ate one of the huge specemines at Triple Crown, I believe it was. Looked wonderful deep fried.

Why does something so bad have to taste so good?