Thanksgiving Turkey Test Run

So I've been elected to "do" the turkey this year for my brother's family in California (long story short: let's just say my idiot cousins did the turkey last year in an oven bag and decided to just dump a bottle of Italian dressing in and call it a day).

I thought I'd do a test run with some of my co-workers here on a smaller scale, just to get my techniques straight. I can make stuffing and mashed potatoes with the best of them, I just don't want to ruin the entire centerpiece of the meal.

So, I'd like to do an under-the-skin porcini butter (ala Bon Appetit November 2007) for flavor.

Here are my questions:

a) I know brining is recommended, but with the butter do I still have to do that?

b) Does it matter if I roast the bird breast side down?

c) Can I employ all three of these methods (brining, subcuteanous butter and breast down cooking) and have a successful, moist, flavorful bird?

d) Do I really need a V-rack to roast or can I just lay down a bunch of vegetables under the bird?


Any advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!

I don't see a problem doing all three. The only thing I would caution is to not tear the skin getting the butter underneath.

Addendum question:

If I don't have time to brine, will the bird suffer?

a) You don't ever have to brine, but it always helps provide a margin of error and more moist white meat.

b) I think this helps and there's no real downside, as an hour+ breast side up will plump and brown the breast so no one will know visually it was cooked breast side down for a while.

c) Yes.

d) I suppose, but a V-rack is easier.

The other key tip I got from Cooks' Ill. long ago-- if you stuff the bird, microwave the stuffing up to 120F, 130F, something like that. Then you won't cook the breast an extra hour just to get the stuffing done. Also, if you put cheesecloth inside the cavity you can just pull the plug of stuffing out, don't have to scrape it out.

Good luck!

Here are my questions:

a) I know brining is recommended, but with the butter do I still have to do that?

Brining with a thorough rinse will win you many compliments. A brined bird is more forgiving of excess heat. I suggest brining, then allowing the bird to air dry overnight to help get a crispy skin.

The porcini butter sounds wonderful.

b) Does it matter if I roast the bird breast side down?

Breast finishes faster than the legs. Starting the turkey breast down gives the legs an early start with the breast to catch up later when flipped. A technique that has a good history of success.

c) Can I employ all three of these methods (brining, subcuteanous butter and breast down cooking) and have a successful, moist, flavorful bird?

Yes, yes, yes.

d) Do I really need a V-rack to roast or can I just lay down a bunch of vegetables under the bird?

Yes ... you like your skin crisp, don't you?

I will add another tip: don't bother basting unless you have to open the oven to flip anyway. This every 30 minutes routine is for the birds and actually slows the cooking process. It takes your oven 10-15 minutes to recover the heat lost when you opened to baste.

Looking forward to your report on your success!

Regards,

gmonkey wrote:(long story short: let's just say my idiot cousins did the turkey last year in an oven bag and decided to just dump a bottle of Italian dressing in and call it a day).

Yuck.

Gmonkey, welcome to the world of roasting a turkey, a world where there are more theories as how to "properly" roast a bird than there are about where the second shooter was in relation to JFK.

In short, there are a lot of techniques, but none are absolutely correct.

gmonkey wrote:Here are my questions:

a) I know brining is recommended, but with the butter do I still have to do that?

You never have to brine. I brined for the first time last year and thought that it made the meat too mealy and too salty. I'll make adjustments this year for experiment's sake, but the object of brining is to (1) add some underlying flavor to the bird by adding spices/herbs to the brine itself; and (2) act an an insurance policy against the bird drying out. I find that with other measures, such as proper timing and basting (which your porcini butter will do), your bird won't dry out. Use of an instant read thermometer or probe will help you gauge the doneness of the bird so that it doesn't dry out. [If your Mom was like mine, she probably put a fine bird in at 9 am, and removed a dry one at 4, the only guide to cooking time being her gut, and she didn't even know what a meat thermometer was, much less used one.]

gmonkey wrote:b) Does it matter if I roast the bird breast side down?

Again, another theory, grounded in the idea that the breast will "self-baste" while it's upside down. Because it's only one theory, no, it doesn't matter because there are other ways to achieve a moist breast (okay, this is getting a little embarassing . . . ). One way is to baste, another way is to put the butter under the skin (make sure you're liberal with it - in fact, I'd taste the porcini butter for strength, and if it's pungent, I'd use a mix of porcini butter and regular, unsalted butter so that you have enough butter to baste the breast and the porcini doesn't overwhelm).

gmonkey wrote:c) Can I employ all three of these methods (brining, subcuteanous butter and breast down cooking) and have a successful, moist, flavorful bird?

Yes. But I'd be judicious about adding additional herbs and/or spices to the brine so as not to overwhelm the flavor of the porcini butter. (Or add only herbs that will enhance the porcini.)

gmonkey wrote:d) Do I really need a V-rack to roast or can I just lay down a bunch of vegetables under the bird?

No, you do not need a V-rack. It can sit on vegetables, but cut them thick (so they don't cook down and flatten out) and evenly, so that the bird sits evenly in the pan. I always put the bird on veggies that will later flavor my drippings.

You'll get a ton of different answers, I'm sure, but I hope this helps!

aschie30 wrote:

gmonkey wrote:(long story short: let's just say my idiot cousins did the turkey last year in an oven bag and decided to just dump a bottle of Italian dressing in and call it a day).

Yuck.

The worst part is, we're not even Italian!

Thanks so much for all the input, I now have a better idea of my plan of attack. Since I won't be able to be in California until Thanksgiving morning, I won't be able to brine the bird, I'll just make sure my brother has it properly defrosted. I can prep the butter and everything else before my trip and keep it all cool during the drive. THen when I get there I can get to work!

This is why I love this forum! Thanks again, and I'll be sure to report back with both pre-Thanksgiving and actual Thanksgiving results!

Salt passes from from brine to the cells of the turkey meat. In effect, you are salting the turkey from within. So brining adds flavor, even if your brine only contains salt and water. As aschie30 said, you can add other flavors (orange juice, spices, herbs, etc.) to the brine to further enhance the flavor.

As everyone else said, brining also reduces the chance you'll try out the meat.

As everyone else said, skipping the brine isn't the end of the world. The turkey will be fine, you just have to be a little more vigilant about being sure not to overcook it.

One advantage of using pickling salt instead of kosher salt in the brine is the the former will more easily dissolve in cold water. However, you cannot replace pickling, kosher, or table salts one-for-one by volume (i.e. one cup of kosher salt is actually less salt than one cup of pickling salt). So you need to measure by weight. If you can't measure by weight, use the conversion chart at the bottom of this page: http://www.mortonsalt.com/salt_guide/index.html (note that these conversions are specific to Morton brand salt).

The porcini butter idea sounded great. I looked it up on Epicurious (http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/100364) and was surprised that the porcinis are not added until the end, as part of the gravy. I think it would be nice to finely chop the reconstituted mushrooms and incorporate them into the butter that goes under the skin. Is this what you are doing?

This is the one I'm using:

http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/240380

The directions include incorporating the mushrooms, garlic, herbs, etc. into a compound butter to be slathered under the skin.

gmonkey wrote:a) I know brining is recommended, but with the butter do I still have to do that?

b) Does it matter if I roast the bird breast side down?

c) Can I employ all three of these methods (brining, subcuteanous butter and breast down cooking) and have a successful, moist, flavorful bird?

d) Do I really need a V-rack to roast or can I just lay down a bunch of vegetables under the bird?

If you don't want to brine, you can buy a kosher turkey or a "pre-basted" turkey injected with a saltwater solution. They will work nearly as well. (Do not brine if you get one of these.)

If you do brine, be sure to rinse the turkey well afterwards and dry with paper towels.

Putting butter on the outside of the turkey helps it to brown more than it adds moisture.

Roasting breast down and flipping over a hot, greasy bird is a huge pain for very little result, in my opinion. If you don't overcook the turkey, the breast will be fine. About 3/4 of the way through roasting time, tent it loosely with foil to keep it from overbrowning.

You can do all the methods together, but the the most important factor for moist turkey is not overcooking. You need a thermometer.

A V-rack is actually a bad idea, because it pushes the legs and wings against the body and the bird browns unevenly. A flat rack in a shallow pan allows air to circulate evenly around the turkey.

If you don't have a rack, you can take foil and crumble it up into a snake and then coil it. Veggies such as whole carrots and celery stalks work if you build them up high enough, but they will cook down and add moisture that can cause the skin to be less crisp.

I just was at a comparison line-up of nine different roast turkeys and the 325-degree roast on a flat rack in a shallow pan was the clear winner. That's the method recommended by just about every turkey expert, from the National Turkey Federation to the USDA to Butterball, and yields a Norman Rockwell-perfect bird.* (Also, the frozen, pre-basted turkey had better flavor and texture than an unbrined fresh turkey.)

I concur with Cathy2 on no basting and Mike G on pre-heating the stuffing, especially for a large bird (but not on the cheesecloth because bits of stuffing that adhere to the carcass don't go to waste, but those tangled in cheesecloth do).
___
* This is not actually the way I usually make turkey but it is definitely the simplest method for the best results. (And my method wasn't part of the test.)

I brined for the first time last year and thought that it made the meat too mealy and too salty.

The first time I brined, 6 or 7 years ago now, I followed CI's instructions and felt it was too salty (not mealy though). I cut the salt by about half and have been very happy ever since. One thing to note: the drippings will be quite salty, I always make an unsalted broth out of the neck and some celery hearts and peppercorns, and add that to reduce salt while keeping turkey flavor (by itself it would be too bland though).

Because it's only one theory, no, it doesn't matter because there are other ways to achieve a moist breast

Yeah, it's only one theory (or tactic), but it's an easy one, I think (though obviously LAZ doesn't), so it works for me. I'm not sure the buttered-up turkey is what I want; the brined one is close enough to my bland midwestern heritage idea of what a turkey should be, but improved upon...

A V-rack is actually a bad idea, because it pushes the legs and wings against the body and the bird browns unevenly. A flat rack in a shallow pan allows air to circulate evenly around the turkey.

I guess what I have is actually kind of in-between-- U-shaped, inverse trapezoidal, something... anyway, I see the point about a total V-shape squishing the bird funny, mine doesn't do that.

Mike G wrote:

I brined for the first time last year and thought that it made the meat too mealy and too salty.

The first time I brined, 6 or 7 years ago now, I followed CI's instructions and felt it was too salty (not mealy though). I cut the salt by about half and have been very happy ever since. One thing to note: the drippings will be quite salty, I always make an unsalted broth out of the neck and some celery hearts and peppercorns, and add that to reduce salt while keeping turkey flavor (by itself it would be too bland though).

Yes - the CI recipe was the one I used for the brine. Thanks for the tip - reducing the salt was exactly what I was going to do this year. I think I'll halve it per your suggestion.

I usually make Gourmet's version of turkey stock prior to Thanksgiving and I don't bother adding salt for the very reason you suggest. My theory is that, with all the things that turkey stock goes into at Thanksgiving (gravy, stuffing), the last thing you need to worry about is an oversalty stock ruining two or three dishes.

Mike G wrote:

I brined for the first time last year and thought that it made the meat too mealy and too salty.

The first time I brined, 6 or 7 years ago now, I followed CI's instructions and felt it was too salty (not mealy though). I cut the salt by about half and have been very happy ever since. One thing to note: the drippings will be quite salty, I always make an unsalted broth out of the neck and some celery hearts and peppercorns, and add that to reduce salt while keeping turkey flavor (by itself it would be too bland though).

What kind of salt do you use, how much per gallon, and how long do you brine? I see that CI recommends for an overnight brine cutting the amount of salt in half, so I'm wondering if you cut that in half again or not.

The version of their recipe I use is from the November 2000 issue and calls for 4 cups of kosher salt in 2 gallons of water. I cut that in half to 2 cups add some of the things from the Chez Panisse brine (though as Eatchicago was saying just last night, things like allspice berries at such tiny quantities in so much water are pointless), and put the bird in the brine last thing Wednesday night, then take it out to air-dry in the fridge first thing Thursday morning. So basically it sounds like I arrived at about the same thing they do now.

Mike G wrote:Chez Panisse brine[/url] (though as Eatchicago was saying just last night, things like allspice berries at such tiny quantities in so much water are pointless)

I don't think it's pointless. I put allspice in my brine and I could pick up the flavor in the turkey. It's subtle but distinct.

For the past 4 or so years, I have been using Alton Brown's turkey cooking directions. Each year the turkey ends up perfect. I follow the recipe exactly as stated.

http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes ... 89,00.html

The most important point in cooking turkey has not been discussed, namely is your turkey fresh, is it frozen and is it adulterated. Forget whether it needs brineing or not.
A fresh turkey will need to be simply roasted according to your recipe. I get mine from John's Live Poultry and they prepare them while you wait. It really makes a difference. Even the turkey you purchase in a grocery as fresh has been held at below 32F for weeks before sale.-Dick

Hi,

I don't happen to own a V-rack. I guess I just consider a rack of any kind to be important to elevate the bird over the liquids accumulating on the bottom.

I no longer use a roasting pan with the high sides either. I use an oversized sheet cake pan (for a smaller bird broiling pan bottom) with an adjustable rack to elevate the bird. My family prizes crisp skin. I do what I can to deliver.

No matter what pan I use, the oven needs to go into a cleaning cycle before further use.

Never consider using those foil pans sold for this purpose. Just too flimsy to comfortably get the job done.

Regards,

For the past 10 years or so, I've been buying kosher turkeys so I don't have to brine them (although now that I have the fridge space, I may start brining my own again) and have very successfully used Martha Stewart's turkey recipe. It's a little fussy, but it has turned out far and away the best turkeys I have ever cooked. I have used most of the methods described in this thread and have settled on this one as my favorite.

stevez wrote:For the past 10 years or so, I've been buying kosher turkeys so I don't have to brine them (although now that I have the fridge space, I may start brining my own again) and have very successfully used Martha Stewart's turkey recipe. It's a little fussy, but it has turned out far and away the best turkeys I have ever cooked. I have used most of the methods described in this thread and have settled on this one as my favorite.

That's the one I use, too! It produces the best turkey in my opinion.

I wrote about the brine I use here:

http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=50661#50661

It's also 1 cup salt per gallon of water. (And I use kosher salt, so that's less salt per cup than many other salts.) I haven't found it makes the drippings too salty, but it does improve the texture and moistness of the finished bird.

If you don't have the time or wherewithal for brining, but don't want the expense of a kosher turkey, you could apply the kashering method yourself: Submerge in tepid water for 30 minutes. Drain. Coat thoroughly with kosher salt, inside and outside, and let stand on a slanted board 1 hour. Rinse thoroughly.

Would someone enlighten me on how it's possible a Kosher turkey is more moist than a non-Kosher one and how Kashering the bird substitutes for brining. The point of Kashering meat is to REMOVE all the blood (and hence a lot of the moisture.) We do not consume animal blood because the Torah prohibits it...the life of the animal is in its blood.

The point of brining (it seems to me) is to add moisture to the flesh. Traditional Kosher meat is dry and tough...so how come a Kashered turkey comes out moist?

Hi Diannie,

It's a bit tough to explain, but basically what happens is:

Salt put on the flesh/skin of the bird draws liquid out, replacing it with salt. The cells of the flesh, now filled with salt, are thirsty for water, and pull much of the liquid back in.

This makes the cells have a higher concentration of salt, which denatures the protein in the meat, making the protein strands unwind and get tangled. When you apply heat, the proteins firm up and create a sort of wall, keeping the liquid inside the bird, making it juicier.

Thanks for the explanation and I understand how that applies for brining where the salt is in solution. I still don't understand where the moisture comes from when Kashering the meat. My grandmother threw great handfuls of salt on her meat so it would be certain to be blood free. Why would a Kosher turkey come out moist when other kosher meat comes out dry? Where does this liquid come from that would make the bird juicier?

My first dilemma (and I swear I'm normally a good cook, just not very confident about this process for some reason!):

When I bought the turkey yesterday, it was straight from the Whole Foods butcher case, and while it wasn’t rock solid frozen, it was still frozen. I’ve put it in the fridge to start defrosting (it’s only a 10 lb bird).

If it defrosts all the way before I cook it on Sunday, it’ll still be ok (bacteria-less) if I just leave it in the fridge fully defrosted, right?

And I've been draining the liquid that's been coming during the defrosting process... is it ok if it's a little bloody?

gmonkey wrote:If it defrosts all the way before I cook it on Sunday, it’ll still be ok (bacteria-less) if I just leave it in the fridge fully defrosted, right?

Right. As long as it stays below 40 degrees, you'll be fine for a few days. Here is a handy chart:
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fttstore.html

gmonkey wrote:And I've been draining the liquid that's been coming during the defrosting process... is it ok if it's a little bloody?

That isn't pure blood. Nearly all of the blood should have been removed when the bird was processed. What you are seeing is basically water. It potentially may have a little blood, but it is also picking up color from the interior of the bird. In any case, you are doing fine to drain it. You definitely don't want any of that water to touch anything else in the fridge.

Hi, all. My first post on LTH but it has been an invaluable resource for me for a couple years as i try to navigate Chicago's restaurant landscape and my own kitchen. So thanks to everyone for your contributions. I've decided to try to add to the community with my own experiences. But first, a question;

I'm hosting Thanksgiving this year for the first time and have ordered a fresh kosher bird. I know that i shouldnt brine it but i was curious if a short soak in clean cold water, say an hour or two, might make for a juicier bird. Anybody ever tried this? Or perhaps I'm just not clear on the science....

Thanks!

Joey A wrote:Hi, all. My first post on LTH but it has been an invaluable resource for me for a couple years as i try to navigate Chicago's restaurant landscape and my own kitchen. So thanks to everyone for your contributions. I've decided to try to add to the community with my own experiences. But first, a question;

I'm hosting Thanksgiving this year for the first time and have ordered a fresh kosher bird. I know that i shouldnt brine it but i was curious if a short soak in clean cold water, say an hour or two, might make for a juicier bird. Anybody ever tried this? Or perhaps I'm just not clear on the science....

Thanks!

Welcome Joey.

Don't soak it. It will just make the outside wet. Brining leads to a more flavorful bird because the salt makes its way inside the meat and denatures the protein molecules. These protein molecules rearrange themselves in a way that, basically, traps moisture. Just putting the bird in plain water won't start that process.

Cooksillustrated.com has a bunch of Thanksgiving stuff on-line for free right now, including an explanation of what brining is and how to do it (which you, as you note, don't need to do.)

(I originally thought you were going to ask whether you should rinse a kosher bird to rid it of excess salt, which you also do not have to do. But a quick rinse is usually a good idea for any bird.)

Joey A wrote:Hi, all. My first post on LTH but it has been an invaluable resource for me for a couple years as i try to navigate Chicago's restaurant landscape and my own kitchen. So thanks to everyone for your contributions. I've decided to try to add to the community with my own experiences. But first, a question;

I'm hosting Thanksgiving this year for the first time and have ordered a fresh kosher bird. I know that i shouldnt brine it but i was curious if a short soak in clean cold water, say an hour or two, might make for a juicier bird. Anybody ever tried this? Or perhaps I'm just not clear on the science....

Thanks!

I'll take a stab at this. (Although I can be completly off base)

Brining your Turkey works because of the process of osmosis. Basically, the concentration of salt in the brine exceeds the concentration of salt in the meat of the bird. When you brine a turkey the solution the solution is constantly trying to maintain equillibrium by tranferring the salt (and other flavors) from the solution to the flesh. As the solution nears a state of equillibrium the salt and water enter and exit the tissue at the same rate.

Since you have increased the salt content of the flesh it requires greater effort to for the moisture to leave. Thus, a juicier bird.

So, if I am correct, soaking a pre-salted or injected bird would lower the overall salt content making it easier to release moisture during cooking, and possibly a drier end product.

Don't know if my goofball science helps with your turkey. This is just how I remember things from 5yrs of chemistry in my past.

Flip

Darren72 wrote:Cooksillustrated.com has a bunch of Thanksgiving stuff on-line for free right now, including an explanation of what bring is and how to do it (which you, as you note, don't need to do.)

Joey-

I highly second the use of Cook's Illustrated's materials as a primer for roasting turkey. Informative illustrations and thorough, plainspeak explanations will make the whole process seem like a cinch.