square cut pizza

I know I saw mention of this on the board before.My search gave me 5 threads.I do not understand the appeal of slice pizza.My favorite currently is Barnaby's which is square cut.When it is the 4 of us everyone gets an equal share with 8 slices or 16 squares.But when it is just the 3 of us,it does not bother us as much having 1 leftover square as 2 leftover slices and deciding who will get them.The texture is unchanged.What part of the slice appeal am I missing?Thank you.

It's a New York thing.

What other cities is the square cut done in? I've seen it in St. Louis, but nowhere else -- but since moving here in '97, I haven't traveled around the country as much as I used to.

I grew up with slices in Boston and enjoyed them in Providence, Philadelphia, and DC, so it isn't just a "New York thing" (apologies, but the amount of credit New York takes -- and is automatically assigned -- for things that did not necessarily begin there bugs Bostonians...). Given that the substantial influx of Italian emigrants covered the entire Northeast from Nashua to Philadelphia, I've always felt it safe to believe pizza arrived contemporaneously throughout the region. But I've also had slices in Texas and California.

In the Northeast, there are also zillions (best estimate circa '97 ;) of Greek-owned-and-operated pizza parlors. These are invariably tagged House of Pizza and seek to emulate normal pizza, generally horribly -- but still they use slices.

Pizza with a (*cough* regional prejudice showing here *cough*) proper foldable crust requires slices just as the local cracker-style crust requires small squares. Pliant crust would quickly make a mess of little squares, and cracker crust slices, especially at the size served when you buy a slice, could be problematic to approach with one's mouth. (And apologies also for this regional prejudice, but in that Italian sausage thread there's a certain amount of local hubris that's largely going unchallenged. I got to pimp for da hometown team myself. I mean it teasingly, not antagonistically. :) )

As for the appeal, as Steve indicated, it's a regional thing. There was a phase on Chowhound a couple of years ago in which a few of us asked "Where can we find xxxxxx like we had in [wherever we'd had it]?" Generally the Chicago natives explained that no, it was made a different way here, appreciate and enjoy the difference. Fair (and very intelligent and encouraging) comment, but sometimes I can and sometimes I can't. I grudgingly accept that there's no "right" pizza, but deep down I believe that the aforementioned immigrants to the East Coast probably did make foldable slices first and, as they reached the Midwest, the availability of different ingredients (and perhaps the lack of availability of what had been common?) created the need to develop a different crust.

Bob, who clearly needs to get dressed and get on with his day

Bob S. wrote:What other cities is the square cut done in? I've seen it in St. Louis, but nowhere else -- but since moving here in '97, I haven't traveled around the country as much as I used to.

I grew up with slices in Boston and enjoyed them in Providence, Philadelphia, and DC, so it isn't just a "New York thing" (apologies, but the amount of credit New York takes -- and is automatically assigned -- for things that did not necessarily begin there bugs Bostonians...).

Forgive me. I should have said an East Coast thing. Although given that slices reign in most of the country, I guess it's more to the point to say that the square cut is a Chicago thing. Either way, it works for me. This is one area of pizzazdom where I am completely agnostic.

No harm done, of course, Steve, and I hope it was understood that I was tweaking myself and my biases along with everything else -- I'm always happy to enjoy the work of Marie's, Art of Pizza, and other homegrown purveyors.

Besides, the Red Sox won this year, so I really should get over it.

The regionalism itself is interesting to me too, as well as any others we haven't yet really discovered. I actually first saw square-cut pizza in St. Louis in '97; I'd met up at a music festival with an online friend who'd just moved to Chicago from Cincinatti, as I recall, and he knew nothing of the square cut -- it was quite a novelty for both of us. Clearly he a) wasn't much of a pizza eater in general and b) was as used to slices in Cincinatti as I was in Boston. But Cincinatti isn't *that* far from here, so the transition point must be between the two cities.

Oh, and I know there are connoisseurs who can distinguish between Boston, New Haven, and New York pizzas, but I've never been able to. On the other hand, I'd certainly be able to distinguish among pizzas from places I patronized regularly, and I wonder if that might be what's really going on there. But it's just musings.

(Edited because my pesky cat interrupted me and made me forget to include the second half of this first time around.)

The square cut, while it may be unique to Chicago, is not the way it's always been around here. The first time I saw it was about 25 years ago. Prior to that (I'm 50), it was always pie sliced. I have no idea why they started doing it, but I have a hunch.

You see, the reason I don't like it is that I am one that likes the outside crust on a pizza. I detest the inside pieces because there is obviously no crust. OTOH, I would often go out with people and see people finish their pizza and have lots of pieces of crust left over. Obviously many people don't like the crust. By cutting it in squares it can actually appeal to both types of people. Those that like the crust can eat the outside while those that don' t like it can hit the inside.

midas wrote:You see, the reason I don't like it is that I am one that likes the outside crust on a pizza.

I've seen the inside pieces referred to as 'filets' and revered as a delicacy. Me, I like the crust, as the pieces hold together better, and get a crunch.

I've seen square-cut pizza most of my life, at least 32 years (memories of a Wheeling joint whose pizza resembled ketchup on cardboard). It's certainly easier to share a pizza among an group that way, and with 18- and 20-inch pizzas it's certainly infeasible to serve them with radial slices.

Perhaps that's the pivot point: are huge pizzas like that not served elsewhere?

Of course, nobody would even think of serving an Uno's/Gino's/Malnati's-style Chicago Pan or an Edwardo's/Giordano's Chicago Stuffed in anything but pie slices, but then you can't make an 18" deepdish either without it ending up raw in the middle.

I've heard tales of 32" pizzas being served in NYC in slices... Erik?

stevez wrote:I've heard tales of 32" pizzas being served in NYC in slices... Erik?

Thanks for that lovely introduction, Steve.

Yes, it is true, Koronet Pizza, on New York's Upper West Side, serves jumbo slices from a 32" pizza pie. The pie pans are custom made for them. I had a college girlfriend whose sister lived within spitting distance, and when we were in New York, I subsisted on Koronet slices, almost exclusively. I used to be able to eat two of them. I still try to get a Koronet slice, whenever I go back to New York.

Cyrus Farivar, a sometime poster on Chowhound's New York boards, did an audio report on Koronet Pizza for a Journalism class at Columbia.

Koronet Pizza
2848 Broadway (@110th)
NYC

Regards,
Erik M.

midas wrote:The square cut, while it may be unique to Chicago, is not the way it's always been around here. The first time I saw it was about 25 years ago. Prior to that (I'm 50), it was always pie sliced. I have no idea why they started doing it, but I have a hunch.

You see, the reason I don't like it is that I am one that likes the outside crust on a pizza. I detest the inside pieces because there is obviously no crust. OTOH, I would often go out with people and see people finish their pizza and have lots of pieces of crust left over. Obviously many people don't like the crust. By cutting it in squares it can actually appeal to both types of people. Those that like the crust can eat the outside while those that don' t like it can hit the inside.

Interesting theory, Midas. Back in Boston, any overbaked pizza perimeters were snidely referred to as "bones" and unceremoniously tossed back into the box for disposal.

JoelF wrote:I've seen square-cut pizza most of my life, at least 32 years (memories of a Wheeling joint whose pizza resembled ketchup on cardboard). It's certainly easier to share a pizza among an group that way, and with 18- and 20-inch pizzas it's certainly infeasible to serve them with radial slices.

Perhaps that's the pivot point: are huge pizzas like that not served elsewhere?

When you order a slice in Boston, New York, and other East Coast cities, the length of the slice could be anywhere from 8" to 12". I perenially forget the name of the East Coast-style pizza parlor in Greektown (it's actually on Van Buren a half-block west of Halsted, across from a 7-11 if I remember) that serves slices about a foot from crust to tip.

That's why the need for foldable crust, incidentally -- it's like corrugated cardboard, lending strength to the structure. (With good crust, that's where the comparison to cardboard ends... )

Since I am an East-Coast type of pizza gal, I will just simply say:

squares are a snack, slices are a meal!

--alex (messycook)

midas wrote:The square cut, while it may be unique to Chicago, is not the way it's always been around here.

Midas,

Rectangular pizza pieces are also common to Italy, where pies are sometimes baked in oblong pans that make right angles obligatory.

Hammond

When I moved to Chicago after living in Kentucky and Ohio I was not unacquainted with the square cut, but associated it mostly with rectangular pizzas. The ubiquitous square cut here took some getting used to.

Part of it, I think, in the East is the heritage of pizza as street food, as buying a slice and eating it on the run. I'm sure most of you know the technique, curling the slice from the crust end so the point end doesn't droop (or worse, shed).

I guess that has never been the tradition here.

I can remember in Oxford, Ohio, in 1969 when I started school there, the pizza places in town were all thin crust rounds and square cut. Then Dominoes came in with the breadier crust and slices, and pretty much ran the other guys out of town. But when I was in high school in Mansfield the Leaning Tower (every town had one) did slices, I think. I don't remember because we always got the subs, which you could more readily eat on the hood of your car in the parking lot.

Some rectangular pizza notes:
1) Mom used to always use the Appian Way box of pizza crust mix with sauce to make pizzas in a jelly-roll pan, with ground beef, kosher-style salami or hot dogs as toppings. Some time after that, she discovered flavor, and food got much better (she went on to be a caterer for a few years).
2) There was an Argentinian restaurant in Evanston about 20 years ago that served pizza by the decimeter, in a long rectangle about 20cm (8in)across. That was served cut crosswise.
3) One of the Martha Stewart cookbooks show long narrow pizzas, cut diagonally crosswise to make a long line of wedges. Go figure.

JoelF wrote:2) There was an Argentinian restaurant in Evanston about 20 years ago that served pizza by the decimeter, in a long rectangle about 20cm (8in)across. That was served cut crosswise.

As David Hammond noted above, rectangular pieces of pizza are not in and of themselves strange. Indeed, on the East coast, 'Sicilian pizza' is always made in a rectangular pan and the pieces are thus similarly shaped. And here in Chicago, the very nice bakery pizzas (D'Amato's, Masi's) are done that way. What is strange or at least idiosyncratic is taking a round pizza and cutting it into squares.

Antonius

JoelF,

Was the Argentine restaurant on Benson Ave.?I mentioned it in the thread on All The Old Familiar Places recently.Cannot remember the restaurant's name.

hattyn wrote:JoelF,

Was the Argentine restaurant on Benson Ave.?I mentioned it in the thread on All The Old Familiar Places recently.Cannot remember the restaurant's name.

Yup, that's the one. I can't remember the name either. I only ate there once, and wasn't too pleased at their insistence on putting hard boiled eggs in just about everything.

In the early sixties, Dad use to get pizza from a place on Fullerton near Ashland called John's and the pizza was square cut. So, it's been sold that way in Chicago for more than 40 years. I'd like to think it's because of our practical grid pattern of streets, but I would tend to agree that it's because pizza was never sold here as street food. I notice, tho, at places where you can purchase a slice, that it's cut like a pie (except at D'Amatos).

Apple wrote:In the early sixties, Dad use to get pizza from a place on Fullerton near Ashland called John's and the pizza was square cut. So, it's been sold that way in Chicago for more than 40 years. I'd like to think it's because of our practical grid pattern of streets

Apple,

I love this rationale for the genesis of the Chicago square cut, whether it's valid or not.

Hammond

Apple wrote:In the early sixties, Dad use to get pizza from a place on Fullerton near Ashland called John's and the pizza was square cut. So, it's been sold that way in Chicago for more than 40 years.

It goes back farther than that but I'm not sure how far. I was looking through the Pizza section of the 1956 Chicago Yellow Pages (there were an astounding number of pizzerias then) and noticed a few small display ads. One, for Roman Village Pizzeria, has a clear rendering of the top of a pie. Miss Roman Village 'a real tomato!' is proudly displaying a round pizza very clearly cut into squares.

I distinctly remember my first pizza after arriving in Chicago. I was surprised to see it cut in squares (I'd never even heard of that practice for round pies). "What kind of place have I moved to?" I wondered. I have managed to adapt.

A few of us recently came across an interesting slicing variation. At John's*, an old Calumet City place, the thin crust round pies are cut once across the diameter, then about 6 times perpendicular to that. This yields about a dozen rectangular pieces of various lengths. This scheme makes quite a bit of sense and I'm surprised it's not more common. All pieces have some edge crust but different amounts of center. Slices are big enough that you don't have to constantly keep reaching back for more. And there's usually exactly the right size piece left for 'the last slice.' John's will, on request, accommodate any slicing preference. Just ask for pie cut or 'party cut', their term for square pieces.

*As far as I know, there's no connection between John's of Calumet City and the John's formerly on Fullerton.

Marie's has been selling square cut pizza since they opened some time in the 50's, I think. Also, as a kid, I remember getting square cut pizza at Laurie's on Braodway and Foster. That definately goes back to the 50's. It has probably been that way well before that.

Rene G wrote:the thin crust round pies are cut once across the diameter, then about 6 times perpendicular to that

That is an interesting cutting style, and typically what we do at home. I am accustomed to seeing this on more oblong shaped pies, such as at I Fratelli in Irving, TX or La Casa in Omaha, but I don't know that I've ever seen it done to a circular pie.

Rene G wrote:John's will, on request, accommodate any slicing preference. Just ask for pie cut or 'party cut', their term for square pieces.

This reminds me that recently Rachael Ray (mmmmmm) referred to square-cut pizza as "the wedding cut." I can't say that I ever had pizza at a wedding out in Boston (she's from upstate New York), so there may be more cultural differences in play than we suspect here. But the square cut reaches at least that far east, even if it's something of an, um, specialty.

I, too, remember square cut pizzas from the 50's in Chicago. In the early 60's dorm pizza parties (usually at Ricobene's) always featured square cut pizzas which led to the "race to the middle."

Shopping at Jewel yesterday I noticed that Digiorno has a new pizza in the frozen section called thin and crispy "you've never tasted any thin like it".
Not only is this pizza rectangular in shape, the picture on the package shows it being served in proper rectangles.
http://164.109.46.215/newsroom/05102004.html

John

Wherever the idea originated, I grew up eating round pizza cut into squares in Rochester, NY. The base was (what most people would know as) the traditional NYC pizza slice dough except there was a lot more of it throughout the pie. In other words, it didn't have the flaky/pastry-ish texture of many Chicago-style thin crusts or the airy texture of a NYC Sicilian-style or Pompeii slice. I experience NYC Sicilian-style or Pompeii pizza more as tomato bread with toppings than pizza, which is to say more a form of bread than pizza. My childhood pizza had a dense, doughy base but the bread didn't overwhelm the cheese and toppings. The best part to me was the crust: just like NYC-style pizza pies, the crust featured more dough than the rest of the pizza and was not laden with sauce, cheese and toppings.

Nobody has highlighted the square/rectangular cut's more "dippable dimensions."

Erik M.

I grew up eating round pizza cut into squares, so of course I'm biased, but one of the reasons I still prefer this style of cut is that it creates several sizes of piece. So when I first start eating, I'll eat a couple of the full square pieces, but when I'm less hungry I can pick up one (or two...) of the edge pieces and it will be just the right size!

Or maybe I'm just fooling myself that I'm eating less, since I seem to eat more of those little misshappen edge pieces...

I grew up in Hartford area of Connecticut and always grew up with round pizza cut into square slices. There would be two 90 degree radial cuts and then two cuts that ran parallel to those "axis cuts". The result was four square crustless middle pieces, eight square-ish crust pieces, and four triangular-ish crust pieces that were more crust than anything else (my least favorite piece when I was a kid). I do remember there being radial sliced pizza at Papa Gino's, but it wasn't as good as the pizza I would get at the pizzaria. My favorite pizza was at Jim's Pizza & Family Restaurant in Windsor, CT; Wilson Pizza in Windsor, CT; and Ocean Pizza in New London, CT. The crust wasn't thin but it wasn't thick either. The cheese was blistered to the point of being a solid sheet layer on top of the sauce. Perfect pizza.

I do remember going to New Haven on occassion and trying Pepe's and Sally's who claim to be the originators of pizza in the Americas (New Haven has many such claims to culinary firsts... the first hamburger, Pez, Frisbee pies, the first pizza). I didn't like it as much. The crust was too thin and the cheese was messy. I can't recall how they sliced it.

Later in life, I "found religion" and began easting strictly kosher. The problem is that kosher restaurants have no idea that there is any style of pizza besides New York style. In my adult years, the only pizza I have eaten has been large, thin crusted, radially sliced, with goopy cheese. It's good, but I miss the perfect pizza of my childhood.