Italian Beef advice?

(First off - this is my first post. I have been coming here for a long time for tips and locations of great places to eat - but you guys know a lot about food, so i've always been a little imtimidated here )

Anyway - my buddy is opening up a restaurant in Bloomington, IN. He's bringing Chicago over to them....polish sausage, hot dogs, fries, italian sausage, etc.

The only thing he and i have NO experience in preparing is Italian Beef.

So - any advice?

Does Scala's make a good product? How abot Vienna?

should we slice it ourselves or get it pre sliced?

specific bread reccomendations?

thanks in advance, you guys never cease to impress

The vast majority of Italian Beef (but not all) starts out as Scala's beef. They have many different varieties and grades. All of the top tier places roast the beef themselves with their own "secret recipe" of herbs and spices. Starting with Scala beef is probably a good thing to do. Coming up with a good recipe is the trick.

well - thats pretty much the run down i got when i cold called a reputable beef restaurant today. He told us to not even go near it at all.

You guys would know better than me - but seeing as my buddy is going to be opening in a college town - is an italian beef just not going to pick up because of it's price? Said restaurant owner made claim that a beef is just way too expensive for the average college student. I tend to agree with him out of common sense.

Looks like it's back to the natural casing dogs, fries and burgers.

I think an italian beef on the menu will get ordered very rarely outside of Chicago. In fact, I think IB is ordered very rarely in Chicago at places that don't claim it as a specialty.

That is, hundreds of independent hot dog/burger stands in Chicago have IB on the menu, and I seriously doubt it's selling well at any of them.

If you want to have it on the menu, and you don't want to bleed money, your best bet is precooked, presliced, and preportioned.

You could make it yourself, slice it, and portion it and reheat it on demand, but it's up to you to decide whether it's worth the bother.

I agree with SteveZ that coming up with a good recipe is not easy, and Scala's is a good starting point. To that I would add that even with a good product, handling at the counter is critical.

If beef is left warming in the juice for too long it becomes tough and starts to lose flavor. If you don't have enough volume for steady turnover, it's best to keep the beef set aside and warm it in the juice only after a customer places an order. Of course, this slows down the whole ordering process. It also means more staff training and oversight.

You can see why places that don't specialize in IB have difficulty getting it right with this product.

P.S.

I do wish you guys luck. When I was a student at IU long ago I would have been thrilled to have something approximating good Chicago hot dogs, Polish sausages, etc.

George R wrote:You can see why places that don't specialize in IB have difficulty getting it right with this product.

This is why i think it's not gonna happen. Personally, i think if you can't do it to perfection, it shouldn't be done at all. I've had some italian beefs that were insulting - and i wouldn't want us to do that to people.

I'm personally sticking to what I know best - dogs. I've been his advisor in the subject since the beginning.

I appreciate your kind words and advice - this forum is stocked full of class and consideration.

Dave

Just a thought but would there be much competition for big heaping portions of noodles and what ever the Hell you want to throw in there? Rice? Outrageous combinations of potatos, cheese, gravy, cheese and gravy, potatos Obrian?

Have to imagine selling something like a 1/2 pound of frys, roasted potatos or the like @ under $3 would be real tempting to a starving college student. You should be able to compete with 7-11 on the big gulp and still make money.

Last thought on the noodles, if you invest on making them yourselves I understand they are less expensive than dirt. Then again I wonder what you could charge our future leaders for dirt?

less the noodles and rice, you're post sounds like Susie's Drive in.

To be honest - this is all my friends' business. He bought the property and is working right now to develop the kitchen. He knows that i am like most of you guys - i travel around to every place i can think of in chicago and explore the wonderful food this city has to offer. I an unhealthy amount of hot dogs. So, he is kind of consulting with me based on that.

He holds a business degree from IU, but no restaurant experience. I have no degree, but a little restaurant experience, so i know that the complexity and depth of his restaurant needs to be proportional to his knowledge and experience.

that said, after reading about IB, re-assessing his location, and taking price/overhead/inventory/fridge space and kitchen set-up into consideration - i've decided that his best bet is to - at least start off - bare bones. Bare bones but damn GOOD.

Gene and Jude's comes to mind - so i gave him my advice and will no longer give him advice until he asks for it again.

but i will link him to this conversation....

i always wondered why people get into business' they know nothing about. they must have a money losing gene or some other affliction. the bright side is i earn my living off of them.

jazzfood wrote:i always wondered why people get into business' they know nothing about. they must have a money losing gene or some other affliction. the bright side is i earn my living off of them.

you should be proud of that career!

"knowing nothing" is a little harsh. he does have a degree from one of the nicest business schools in the nation. Running a stand that only sells hotdogs and fries doesn't take a rocket scientist.

Now - if he were opening up a full-on restaurant, i'd agree with you.

i am. i love what i do... and i stand on my oft repeated words. smart people w/good intentions, advanced education or not and savvey pros alike fail all the time. it's been my experience that any other portrayal would be fiction.

people that are afraid of both failure and success coast in mediocity their entire lives.

this man is not one of them. Fail or succeed, he'll do as good a job as any, i can promise that.

thanks for the heads up though - we haven't run into any negative nelly's yet

i agree w/you. i'm not being negative though. realistic from an informed position is more like it. in fact, i can relate as i'm very much like that myself. i've tried all sorts of things and failed, and learned from them more than any of my successes in life. i wish him well. any questions, feel free to pm me.

much appreciated

Just curious how much capital equipment was offered to you lease free in exchange for using various suppliers? Do they do that in Bloomington, IN like they do in Chicago?

Also curious about things like FOH square footage, seating, is there a drive through?

well - like i said, this is my friend's baby. But i know that he is working with a Vienna Beef regional distributer, and like chicago, they will outfit your kitchen for you. How much of that is free lease will be addressed between them.

He's also working with Sysco. The last i heard from him, 2 days ago, he was going to meeting with their rep to go over these things.

djenks--

I've got only one thing to say to you and your friend:

"plastics"

Oooops, wrong word.

"Poutine"

It's coming, fast, in all the hip places. It's a perfect college treat. And, best of all, equals menudo for *really* late night/early hungover morning relief.

Trust me on this.

Geo

haha, thats awesome.

I had that in British Columbia and couldn't remember what it was called. so my state of mind might have made my experience with poutine more enjoyable than if i had been - well - not in British Columbia. But either way - it's an absolutely awesome "dish".

Thanks for the suggestion. With his experience and financial situation, i just told him to take a "business trip" to Gene and Jude's and just sit there and watch - if he can copy that formula he'll be a weekly millionare in Bloomington, IN.

dont you think? although, keeping chees curds and some of my mom's gravy on hand wouldnt be that much harder....

Poutine is a real money-maker: it's even reached the hippest brunch in KC (at the Bluestem), as well as several hot places in NYC. You could advertise it as "Direct from Montreal!" to finesse the point that it's not Chicago food.

You *might* even be able to locally source the cheese curds...

But a great gravy is what makes it--if your Mom's gravy is great (and what Mom's isn't? , there's a natch match.

Anyway, just a thought. Those college kids would suck it up so fast you couldn't keep Mom making gravy fast enough!

Geo

Said restaurant owner made claim that a beef is just way too expensive for the average college student. I tend to agree with him out of common sense.

i'm not sure i'm following you. most italian beef sandwiches run $3-$4.50, which is the same as you'd expect to pay for a decent burger. it's not an expensive item.

portillo's website lists a beef sandwich at $4.09, and a combo at $4.69. a burger is $3.09 ($4.39 for a double) and cheese is extra. not a big difference.

not as cheap as hot dogs, of course.


oh, and it's not hard to make a decent beef/sausage/combo sandwich. it's just a matter of sourcing good product. you should be able to buy scala's beef and juice frozen through major suppliers in indiana.

beef sandwiches are a nice and easy pickup for a place with limited space as well, because all you really need to do is heat the juice, hold it in a steam table, and dump a bunch of sliced beef into it every now and again. to serve it, it's just a matter of putting it onto the bread, dipping, and adding peppers.

and i think there are enough kids at IU who originate from chicago, that they'd appreciate a decent beef sandwich.


just my $.02.

elakin wrote:

Said restaurant owner made claim that a beef is just way too expensive for the average college student. I tend to agree with him out of common sense.

i'm not sure i'm following you. most italian beef sandwiches run $3-$4.50, which is the same as you'd expect to pay for a decent burger. it's not an expensive item.

more likley no less than $4.50. Add a drink. Add fries. Now you're talking about an $8 or $9 meal. Where as with a hot dog/fries/drink, it's under $5.

elakin wrote:

Said restaurant owner made claim that a beef is just way too expensive for the average college student. I tend to agree with him out of common sense.

i'm not sure i'm following you. most italian beef sandwiches run $3-$4.50, which is the same as you'd expect to pay for a decent burger. it's not an expensive item.

portillo's website lists a beef sandwich at $4.09, and a combo at $4.69. a burger is $3.09 ($4.39 for a double) and cheese is extra. not a big difference.

not as cheap as hot dogs, of course.

Agreed. These prices fit well with those in the Campustown area in Champaign-Urbana. College students eat at Chipotle, Bar Louie, tons of bar and grill-type places, etc. I don't think Italian Beef would be out of line, price-wise. The key isn't getting them accept the price level. Instead, the key is getting them to go venture outside of the standard chain restaurants.

Can you get Gonnella bread down there?

PS re above prices, isn't Portillo's way more expensive than that for IB sandwiches???

George R wrote:If beef is left warming in the juice for too long it becomes tough and starts to lose flavor. If you don't have enough volume for steady turnover, it's best to keep the beef set aside and warm it in the juice only after a customer places an order.

Does anyone know approximately how long beef can sit in hot juice before it starts deteriorating?

Cogito wrote:

George R wrote:If beef is left warming in the juice for too long it becomes tough and starts to lose flavor. If you don't have enough volume for steady turnover, it's best to keep the beef set aside and warm it in the juice only after a customer places an order.

Does anyone know approximately how long beef can sit in hot juice before it starts deteriorating?

Unless the product is being sold on a "fast track," fresh, not frozen Italian beef can be warmed to 135-140 in it's juices for 45-90 seconds per individual order before it turns to shoe leather. Places that do big volume business have such a fast turnover, the meat never gets an opportunity to deteriorate.

I've kept it in a steam table for 1/2 hr without noticeable deterioration. Its been my experience that after that it tends to break down more like saw dust, not get tougher.

Jazzfood wrote:I've kept it in a steam table for 1/2 hr without noticeable deterioration. Its been my experience that after that it tends to break down more like saw dust, not get tougher.

If you keep it in the juice and the juice is too hot, tougher it will get!

I think it may have to do with how thinly sliced it is. If you can read through it, there's not much to get tough, it just breaks down.

Italian beef has to be shaved very thin to be good. If it's the thickness of typical deli Roast Beef, then it's not thin enough!

You can always experiment at home first!

Out of all the beef I've tried including the mainstays (Mr. Beef, Johnnie's, Al's, etc) I still love Portillo's Beef most of all, and one of the things they do that most don't is key to me - they (lightly) toast the outside of the bread before they put anything in it. I like my beef all sorts of ways, but my absolute favorite way is dry with the juice on the side. Then I pour the juice down the middle over everything, but the outside is still crisp from being toasted. I still get a soggy middle section, so it's like the best of both worlds. Of course, throw all that out the window if I want it dipped! Their bread is nothing special before it's toasted, but once it is - it becomes great! When my friends or family take Portillo's Beef home to make it ourselves, most of them never toast the bread which drives me crazy. Once I toast it for them, their eyes light up in amazement.

Ok... as far as beef in the college town? Hit or miss. If you want to win them over - GIVE AWAY FREE MINI SANDWICHES or something similar. Once they are hip to it, you should be in good shape. But you really have to have a great beef sandwich to pull it off. Maybe start off having it only one day a week and make a big deal about it.

Yes, it has to be really thin. I like it when some of the beef flakes off into the bottom of the pot. Then you grab some of it and it seems to add to the overall effect.