How are you cooking your heritage turkey?

Last year we slow roasted at a low temp; this year Jim is brining.

There are a number of recipes, but they seem to contradict each other. High heat? Low heat? Cover or no? Brine or no brine?

http://www.localharvest.org/features/cooking-turkeys.jsp
http://www.heritagefoodsusa.com/heritage_recipes/index.html
http://www.williamrubel.com/turkey.prepare.html

No matter how it turns out, it's going to be fantastic. We visited Caveny farm earlier this summer and saw and heard our turkey (among the others) in his field. That's a very cool connection, knowing where and how the turkey spent his days before he met the fateful knife of the amish butcher.

Hi,

Two years ago, a Slow Food person at Culinary Historians mentioned following the brining method touted by Cook's Illustrated for her heritage turkeys. A friend has offered to raise a turkey for me, which I have not yet taken up the offer.

I buy mass produced turkey at the lowest price, it's been injected, I brine it anyway. I find brined turkeys are much more forgiving of higher heats. I start with the turkey breast down and roast at high temperture for 30-60 minutes. I flip it over and turn down the heat until internal readings are coming close to finished. I will then drive up the heat for the brown Thanksgiving turkey glow. Basicly, I follow Cook's Illustrated with a few less flips (fine on small turkeys but a pain when they are 20+ pounds).

When I first did turkeys in the early 70's, I did high heat breast side down. When it was flipped I used cheesecloth dipped in butter to preserve the breast's color suggested by Gourmet magazine. They had you opening the oven every 30 minutes to baste. I don't do cheesecloth and I almost never baste anymore. Why? How long does it take for an oven to recover everytime you open to play with the turkey. Yes, the temperature gauge may be satisfied but I doubt you have an even heat until midway to the next basting. I decided it wasn't worth it to baste to schedule. I will baste when I check on it, but I think it is more for my benefit than the birds.

Good luck, I'm sure it will be a terrific bird.

Regards,

Do you do a simple sugar and salt brine, or do you add more flavors? I'm trying to find my recipe from last year, the first time I brined the turkey (quite successfully, I might add), but am coming up short.

The year before, on a lark, I did a Thompson's turkey. The bird was good, but not so much better than any other to justify the comical amount of preparation. The gravy, however, was perhaps the best I've ever had. If you have a lot of hands without much to do, Thompson's turkey is a good way to get some communal kitchen time. Best done, of course, with a good deal of wine.

Cheers,

Aaron

Aaron Deacon wrote:Do you do a simple sugar and salt brine, or do you add more flavors? I'm trying to find my recipe from last year, the first time I brined the turkey (quite successfully, I might add), but am coming up short.

Once again, I am following the Chez Panisse method. I have tried various brining methods over the years, and this one is great. It is simple, straighforward, and fail-safe. The only addition I would make to the basic outline included in the link, above, is to dry the bird in the fridge, post-brining, for at least eight hours.

This year, I am going to try something a bit different and stuff the breast.

Happy Holiday,
Erik M.

Erik M. wrote:Once again, I am following the Chez Panisse method. I have tried various brining methods over the years, and this one is great. It is simple, straighforward, and fail-safe.

Aha! Thank you sir...this is precisely the recipe I was looking for and the one I used last year. I hadn't a clue where it was from or how to find it. I did stuff the bird last year, by the way, and the turkey was excellent.

Happy T-Day!

Aaron

Hi,

Erik made a fine addition to the body of turkey information suggesting air drying the turkey at least 8 hours before cooking. Consider brining Wednesday, so you can air dry it overnight.

For those considering brining, which I have been doing for years. I just found over at Cook's Illustrated (CI) a Turkey FAQ, which covers the topic of brining. Unlike Chez Panisse, CI suggests a much shorter brine time. If you need to do it overnight, then they suggest cutting back on the salt. Considering the amount of research CI puts into their recommendations, I would follow the Chez Panisse brining formula for flavor considerations, then follow the time periods by CI. I respect both sources, though I tip in favor of CI's brining period analysis.

If you are willing to provide your information, then you can temporarily access recipes from CI, which are Thanksgiving focussed, which otherwise you need an online subscription to access. If you are a non-subscriber, then they will send you a complimentary copy.

This year, I bought a fresh Kosher turkey. By definition, kosher turkeys come pre-brined from the butcher. Granted, it's just a simple salt brine, but it means that I can pick up my turkey at the last minute and not worry about having to fit a huge bucket in my fridge along with all of the other Thanksgiving goodies. After smoking a kosher turkey this summer, the results were good enough that I'm never going to brine my own again (unless I try Gary's buttermilk method).

I'll be cooking it in a modified* Martha Stewart style for the third year in a row. As much as I hate to admit it, prisoner #55170-054 knows how to roast a picture perfect roast turkey that comes out very juicy.

* The stuffing I use is a Greek stuffing which is my wife's grandmother's recepie. I also use my own rub on the bird instead of just salt & pepper and baste half as much (or less) than Martha's recepie calls for (for much the same reasons that Cathy2 outlined earlier in the thread).

Edited to fix the link to Martha Stewart Style

Hi Steve,

Do you use the cheesecloth? I have heard Martha's method for gravy is quite good, also.

Another thing I do at the recommendation of Cook's Illustrated, I microwave the stuffing and stuff it as hot as I can possibly tolerate. The reason for doing so is related to food safety and the length of time it takes for the stuffing to warm in traditional roasting methods.

I have never done another CI recommended idea, of putting the stuffing into a cheesecloth sack then inserting it into the turkey. I read the explanation several times and never felt compelled to follow it.

As I write this, I remember watching my Maternal Grandmother stuff a Turkey. When her turkey couldn't handle the remaining stuffing, she would compress the stuffing with her fist to create space and finish the job. Her stuffing was like a dense wad, which needed gravy to make it edible.

Regards,

I'm gonna grill again. Who's for/against butterflying?

I'm also off to Taqueria La Oaxecena to see if they'll part with some mole. If that's unsucessful, anyone ever "make" mole from the green powder sold around town? I tried doing it last year, mixing the mole powder with turkey stock but I cannot say I liked the results.

Rob

Hi,

I favor butterflying the turkey.

Good luck on your pursuit of mole.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Cathy2 wrote:Hi Steve,

Do you use the cheesecloth? I have heard Martha's method for gravy is quite good, also.

Yes. The cheesecloth is the key. I have not used her method for gravy, relying on my own (which is pretty basic gravy made wioth a roux).

Vital Information wrote:I'm gonna grill again. Who's for/against butterflying?

Against. Although butterflying makes it easier to cook, I'm always up for a little challenge (and after roasting turkeys for years, it's no big deal). Also, you can't beat the presentation of a whole beautiful turkey brought to the table before carving.

Cathy2 wrote:Unlike Chez Panisse, CI suggests a much shorter brine time. If you need to do it overnight, then they suggest cutting back on the salt.

True, but CI also calls for using table salt, while Chez Panisse calls for kosher. CI says 1 cup of table salt per gallon or 1 1/2 cups of Morton kosher or 2 cups of Diamond kosher for a short brine, or half that (1/2 cup table salt, 3/4 cup Morton kosher, 1 cup Diamond kosher per gallon) for the longer brine. Chez Panisse, which calls for the longer brine, calls for 4/5 cup kosher, which pretty well splits the difference between Morton and Diamond. The two sources actually agree on the salt/water/brine time equation, which seems a pretty good recommendation.

Plus, the Chez Panisse worked great for me last year. I did, and plan to again, allow a good bit of time for air drying after brining.

[Correction: CI's longer brine is for 12-14 hours, while Chez Panisse is for 24. But with the less strong brine solution, I'm not sure that the added time is as significant. In any case, I'll split the difference by brining late tonight and pulling it out when I get home from work tomorrow, and letting it air dry overnight.]

[Correction to the correction: In one place it says 24 hours, in another 12-24 hours.]

Cheers,

Aaron

Aaron Deacon wrote:CI also calls for using table salt, while Chez Panisse calls for kosher. CI says 1 cup of table salt per gallon or 1 1/2 cups of Morton kosher or 2 cups of Diamond kosher for a short brine, or half that (1/2 cup table salt, 3/4 cup Morton kosher, 1 cup Diamond kosher per gallon) for the longer brine.

Aaron,

Do you (or anyone else) understand the reason for the differing quantities of table salt vs. kosher. I'm guessing that the finer grind (and dissolve-ability) of the table salt makes the solution "saltier," but is there any other reason to prefer one over the other?

Hammond

I received a free turkey last year from work. When I lived in Cleveland, I would head over to the in-laws, sneak into the basement and dump the turkey in my in-laws freezer and wait for an angry phone call a few weeks later when my MIL found out what I had done. However, that no longer works.

The turkey was from Schaul's. It was a really nice turkey, one of the best shaped and butchered that I have seen (since my great aunts would butcher their own. I convection roasted it for 145 minutes at 325F and it turned out quite well. Generally, I would roast it at a lower temperature but as this turkey will be used for sandwiches and turkey salad and I was tired, I was in a rush to get it cut and frozen before I headed to bed.

I do not brine turkeys or any other meat. With so many people with hypertension these days, I see no need to add additional sodium into my cooking. I also don't buy meat injected with solutions whenever possible.

David Hammond wrote:

Aaron Deacon wrote:CI also calls for using table salt, while Chez Panisse calls for kosher. CI says 1 cup of table salt per gallon or 1 1/2 cups of Morton kosher or 2 cups of Diamond kosher for a short brine, or half that (1/2 cup table salt, 3/4 cup Morton kosher, 1 cup Diamond kosher per gallon) for the longer brine.

Aaron,

Do you (or anyone else) understand the reason for the differing quantities of table salt vs. kosher. I'm guessing that the finer grind (and dissolve-ability) of the table salt makes the solution "saltier," but is there any other reason to prefer one over the other?

Hammond

The issue is that americans tend to measure dry goods by volume rather than weight.

If you said "100g of salt" it wouldn't matter what type of salt you used. However, saying 1c of salt is very different. With popcorn salt and its super-small grains, you'll get far less air trapped between the grains and thus more weight in the same volume. With kosher salts, and even more so with salts like Maldon that are very, very flaky, you'll have far more air between the grains and less weight per cup.

Once it's dissolved in a solution, an equal weight of salt will taste equally salty regardless of original flake type. There's no reason to use kosher salt in a brine if you dissolve all the salt before brining. Use non-iodized table salt and it'll be identical..

Steingarten tested this a number of years ago for Vogue, taste-testing various specialty salts vs normal table salt when equal quantities (masses) dissolved in water. By and large, people couldn't tell the difference.

-ed

gleam wrote:Use non-iodized table salt and it'll be identical..

Steingarten tested this a number of years ago for Vogue, taste-testing various specialty salts vs normal table salt when equal quantities (masses) dissolved in water. By and large, people couldn't tell the difference.

Gleam, very sensible advice.

I notice that many brining recipes suggest not using iodized salt, but I can't imagine that would make much of a difference...or does it?

Incidentally, your reference to the Vogue article confirms a suspicion of many (including me) that it's not the "quality" of the salt so much as the "grind" (or particle size) that makes a lot of difference. I have noticed, though, that some salts -- like Maui Pink, for instance -- have a more mineral-y taste than regular table sale.

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:
I notice that many brining recipes suggest not using iodized salt, but I can't imagine that would make much of a difference...or does it?

Incidentally, your reference to the Vogue article confirms a suspicion of many (including me) that it's not the "quality" of the salt so much as the "grind" (or particle size) that makes a lot of difference. I have noticed, though, that some salts -- like Maui Pink, for instance -- have a more mineral-y taste than regular table sale.

Hammond

Well, the red and black sea salts from hawaii are mixed with clay or ash before they make it to you. It's likely that's where the taste is coming from. The Spice House also now sells a sea salt that's been smoked with coconut and kaffir lime leaves. Same concept, kinda.

My guess as to why they advise against using iodized salt is that it's possible to overdose on iodine. Also, some people believe the iodine adds a metallic taste to salt.

Me, I always get hung up on the size of the grain/flake. Maldon is by far my favorite sea salt (over fleur de sel, and many others) because of the large but thin flakes. They dissolve fairly quickly, but still leave a bit of pop on your tongue. It's especially good on some pastas and sliced steak.

-ed

David Hammond wrote:

gleam wrote:Use non-iodized table salt and it'll be identical..

Steingarten tested this a number of years ago for Vogue, taste-testing various specialty salts vs normal table salt when equal quantities (masses) dissolved in water. By and large, people couldn't tell the difference.

Gleam, very sensible advice.

I notice that many brining recipes suggest not using iodized salt, but I can't imagine that would make much of a difference...or does it?

Incidentally, your reference to the Vogue article confirms a suspicion of many (including me) that it's not the "quality" of the salt so much as the "grind" (or particle size) that makes a lot of difference. I have noticed, though, that some salts -- like Maui Pink, for instance -- have a more mineral-y taste than regular table sale.

Hammond

I recently saw a side by side taste test of different kinds of salt. I don't remember for sure, but I think it might have been on America's Test Kitchen. The results were pretty much that it didn't matter what kind of salt you used for cooking. People could not tell a difference. However, the results were completely different when it came to salting food after cooking. When salt was added "at the table", tasters preferred the higher end salts over table salt and kosher salt. Adding at the end of cooking helps preserve the fresh unique taste that a particular salt brings to the dish. I guess the reasoning is similar to why you add fresh herbs at the end of cooking rather than at the beginning.

stevez wrote:that it didn't matter what kind of salt you used for cooking. People could not tell a difference. However, the results were completely different when it came to salting food after cooking. When salt was added "at the table", tasters preferred the higher end salts over table salt and kosher salt. Adding at the end of cooking helps preserve the fresh unique taste that a particular salt brings to the dish. I guess the reasoning is similar to why you add fresh herbs at the end of cooking rather than at the beginning.

Stevez/DB,

That makes good sense.

Contrariwise, my understanding is that there is no reason NOT to add higher-end "finishing" salts during cooking...except for the cost factor. In other words, it's a waste of money, but it wouldn't really matter much to the taste of the final product.

Hammond

Manning wrote:Last year we slow roasted at a low temp; this year Jim is brining.

There are a number of recipes, but they seem to contradict each other. High heat? Low heat? Cover or no? Brine or no brine?

Manning,

I smoked a couple of Heritage turkeys for the Slow Food booth at Spiaggia's 20th anniversary event, which we both attended. Edible member bait, so to speak.



These were done with a simple brine of kosher salt and brown sugar with the addition of 1-part buttermilk to each 3-parts water, smoked at 250 with hickory and oak. The slight acid in the buttermilk helps keep the leaner and more muscular Heritage turkey from becoming dry and tough.



For the oven I would brine, sans buttermilk, and roast at 350 to 165 in the thigh, which is lower then most suggest. In my opinion the poor turkey is often subjected to overcooking, resulting in dry, tasteless breast meat.



The one turkey, and poultry in general, trick I have is to snap the leg/thigh joint out of its socket, this allows the thigh to cook faster, resulting in less likelihood of the breast drying out before the thigh is cooked.



We are in Florida visiting my parents for T-day and I am oven roasting a very attractive all natural bird. I'll brine, just kosher salt and brown sugar, and roast at 350 to 165 in the thigh. My parents invited a pair of snowbird friends from Canada, I sure hope a 15-lb bird can feed 6-people.

Hope all have a wonderful T-Day.

Enjoy,
Gary

Hi,

Tablesalt often has some extra chemicals to keep it free flowing, though it is not always iodized. Remember the Morton Salt motto, "When it rains, it pours!" In some areas of the world, the salt has neither iodine or chemicals to keep free flowing, then you will see rice in the salt shakers in an attempt to keep things loose.

Kosher salt is something when I run out, it doesn't pop back on the shopping list until the next time it is needed. I always have canning salt which does not have any chemicals nor iodine, so I substitute by weight as Ed suggested earlier. The canning salt does get clumpy, so I keep it in quart jars to minimize the problem.

I was just reading the basic brining primer in CI, which offers a direct volume comparative for the salt:
1/2 Diamond Crystal Kosher = 1/4 cup + 2 tablespoons Morton Kosher = 1/4 cup table salt
So those who don't keep gram/ounce scales in their kitchens have something to refer to.

Happy Thanksgiving ... and now I have to brine a bird!

SteveZ wrote:Contrariwise, my understanding is that there is no reason NOT to add higher-end "finishing" salts during cooking...except for the cost factor. In other words, it's a waste of money, but it wouldn't really matter much to the taste of the final product.

I use my sea salts and such when you can notice it. Last night, I had leftover tri tip steak and I dabbed it in coarse sea salt, I got the taste and the texture. So yes, it is used for finishing rather than prepping in my book.

At Chicago Food Corp, you can buy fairly large quantities of sea salt rather inexpensively. IN that case, I don't care how I use it. I have used sea salt as a substitute for canning salt in a pinch ... though canning salt is 5 pounds for less than $2.

Somewhere on CH, RST has a lengthy post on salt.

stevez wrote:I'll be cooking it in a modified* Martha Stewart stylefor the third year in a row. As much as I hatge to admit it, prisoner #55170-054 knows how to roast a picture perfect roast turkey that comes out very juicy.

Well, just so you know, prisoner #55170-054 knows her way around gravy, too. I apologize, but I cannot seem to find the original recipe that I followed several years ago. Instead, I am only able to find, what appears to be, a tremendously foreshortened version of that original. At any rate, the original item was worth the day's labour required.

Sometime, when I gain more distance on my pain, I will tell you about the year that my Aunt ruined one of those day's labour, in the blink of an eye. I turned my attention from the M.S. stock that I was warming on the hob, but only for a minute, and when I snapped to, I found my Aunt dumping a gob of gravy base in.

Happy Thanksgiving,
Erik M.

Erik,

There is another Turkey Gravy on her website. I saw it last night and wondered if this is the one you said required so much effort.

Happy Thanksgiving!
Regards,

Cathy2 wrote:There is another Turkey Gravy on her website. I saw it last night and wondered if this is the one you said required so much effort.

Well, if it is not the very same, it shares with the original one crucial component-- it appears simple and straightforward. But, seriously, I though that the recipe I followed involved roasting turkey parts, first. Additionally, I remember chilling the strained stock to set the fat.

Then again, I may be conflating my own anal-retentiveness with that of Martha Stewart.

Happy Thanksgiving,
Erik M.

Erik M. wrote:Sometime, when I gain more distance on my pain, I will tell you about the year that my Aunt ruined one of those day's labour, in the blink of an eye. I turned my attention from the M.S. stock that I was warming on the hob, but only for a minute, and when I snapped to, I found my Aunt dumping a gob of gravy base in.

Happy Thanksgiving,
Erik M.

Just remember:

You can pick your friends and you can pick you nose, but you can't pick your firend's nose or your relatives (or something like that).

I have found that the best gravy starts with turkey stock made using chicken stock as opposed to water for the liquid. Even better was the time I followed these steps: made a white chicken stock, roasted some bones; made a double stock, by simmering those bones with the original stock; then cooked the turkey stock using that second stock as liquid. I can't recall what possessed me to take all those steps that year, but it was a pretty incredible gravy.

On the subject of Heritage turkeys though, an equal to the above described gravy was the one I made with the first Heritage turkey I had two years ago. It was a much smaller bird than Caveney has been raising (I don't recall the farmer Slow Food had used that year, though I know he was in Ohio), i.e. 9 lbs., which we were very concerned would not feed even the small group I was having. It was incredible, flavorful and suprisingly meaty. The gravy was unlike any other turkey gravy I've had or made in the past, very dark and incredibly rich. I like Caveney's birds, but, man, I would love to find that farmer's name. Maybe a post holiday mission.

ErikM wrote:Well, if it is not the very same, it shares with the original one crucial component-- it appears simple and straightforward. But, seriously, I though that the recipe I followed involved roasting turkey parts, first. Additionally, I remember chilling the strained stock to set the fat.

Glad I was able to help.

Well, I already have the stock in process. By putting it aside in the refrigerator overnight, I will be able to pull off the fat. The part I am just looking forward to is picking the meat off the neck!

&&&

I will often throw vegetables into the bottom of the roasting pan: carrots, celery, onions which I incorporate into the gravy using my immersion blender. Some years, I have had enough vegetables, I did not need to make any roux.

Gravy is like meatloaf with lots of different approaches and everyone loves their own.

Happy Thanksgiving!
Regards,

Vital Information wrote:I'm also off to Taqueria La Oaxecena to see if they'll part with some mole. If that's unsucessful, anyone ever "make" mole from the green powder sold around town? I tried doing it last year, mixing the mole powder with turkey stock but I cannot say I liked the results.

Rob

Hey Rob,

I hope you were able to get some mole to go from La Oaxaquena. If not...

I don't have any experience with prepared or powdered mole, but GREEN powder sounds all wrong for your turkey. As you know, there are lots of types of ground up stuff classified as mole, even guaca-mole, and the mole traditionally served with turkey is mole poblano, with a base of chiles anchos plus about 15 other ingredients. If you get something from a Mexican grocery store, I should think the jars of dark mole paste would do a better job.

Amata