Italian Beef Blind Taste Test - long - Updated Results

I know, I know, the Italian Beef thing on this forum is like beating a dead horse; however, I still have friends that either haven't tried most of the decent beefs in town or are still looking for the holy grail of beefs, with thoughts of finding some small mom & pop that could dethrone Al's or Johnnies. The results of these conversations usually end up in an argument about who's favorite is the best, so I decided to create a blind taste test of Italian Beefs. I noticed that very seldom, the beefs can be compared side by side and often, the taster is so excited about being at Johnnie's (or wherever) that they may find the beef "just tastes better there."

In a few weeks I'll be hosting 7 other beef fans at my house to taste these beefs. Each participant will be picking up beefs from a designated stand and bringing them to my house for the tasting. Upon arrival, the bags will be marked with a letter so it's random and nobody will know where the beefs come from (except me of course). We will judge the beefs on a few criteria (meat quality, flavor, overall beef, etc.) and grade and rank the beefs (one participant is a statistician for Nielsen). The idea is that this experiment can be replicated by others or for other items (subs, pizza, etc.).

All beefs will be ordered "plain" so the peppers will not alter the flavor. We will have "hot peppers" on the side (for later). Here's the list of the beef stand we were thinking about:

a. Johnnies on North Ave

b. Chickies on Pulaski

c. Romas on Cicero

d. Al’s Original on Taylor

e. Mr. Beef on Orleans

f. Boston’s on Chicago

g. Portillo’s downtown

h. Jay’s Beef on Montrose

Each taster will have 1/3 or 1/2 of a beef to taste and grade. I will follow up on this posting and try to take some pictures as well.

I have a few questions for the Forum:

1. Is this list a good representation of the "top eight" beef spots (personally, I think there are 4-5 great beefs and then there's the rest).
2. Are there any variables that we should include in the tastings that can build around the beef-a-thon's?
3. Any recommendations on ordering the beefs for transport (I live in Ukrainian Village - with most of these places less than 30 min. from my door)? Tasters will be coming in from the suburbs and other city locations.
4. Any other advice?

Thanks much.

tyrus wrote:4. Any other advice?

Just that you take your conclusions with a grain of salt. I'm scientifically-minded and love blind tastings, but I suspect you're underestimating the effect that travel will have on your tasting. I did a blind beef tasting with a group once, it was only two beef stands and they were only four blocks away, and we still all agreed that we weren't really getting a good representation of the sandwiches. With eight sandwiches and 30 minute trips in some cases, I think you're introducing more inconsistency than you're eliminating. Travel changes them and for your purposes, most notably, changes some more than others. For reasons that I'll never understand, in my experience Johnnie's seems to travel extremely well while Chickie's travels horribly.

Not that it won't be a load of fun, I'm sure, but I wouldn't put too much stock in the results.

Heh...

In the category of Insane Thoughts, it occurs to me that the best possible solution would be to designate a non-tasting driver/buyer, blindfold all of the tasters and bring them to the beef

(The sad thing is, I'd volunteer for this.)

Or you could try to order the beefs in their component parts, maybe bring containers with you, and have one person reassemble them for consistency's sake. You will at least eliminate sogginess as a factor - though how the beef is assembled at the store would be up for grabs.

I for one tip my White Sox hat to you in admiration for this undertaking.

Good luck, and please post the results. One can never have too many Beef tastings in my opinion.

Temperature will also have an influence (I ran into this with a classic Polish taste test, and with pizza many times). I recommend letting everything cool evenly and then tasting at room temperature, or if that's unbearable, at least putting everything back on a hotpad for a few minutes beforehand.

Or, when we tried this with pie the last time, we picked a grocery store with an eat-in area that was in the geographic center of the sampled shops to give everyplace a fair shot (even though some of them will have removed the product from heat earlier, and others will have used better-insulating packaging. Hard to account for all of the variables).

You might actually get best results on the hot peppers alone - I'd be interested in a giardiniera comparison.

In the category of Insane Thoughts, it occurs to me that the best possible solution would be to designate a non-tasting driver/buyer, blindfold all of the tasters and bring them to the beef

I love it. I'd be right there with you at signup, GT.

I think the blind aspect of the tasting is probably overrated. If you have no agenda and you agree on consistent criterea for judging then your decisions wont be clouded by intangibles like the ambience of a say, Chickies as opposed to the Elegant Dining Room at Mr. Beef.

That having been said, IMHO as far as beef stands are concerned, the length and breadth of my experience with a particular place defines my opinion of the product as I have found that any one place can have a bad day and a better litmus test how a place compares after several visits.

I think you will find that many of the sandwiches will not travel and you will be eating a lot of soggy messes. Sounds fun but I dont think it will yield the side by side apples to apples comparison you desire. I look forward to your results.

Thanks for the quick responses. The tasting group had also brought up many of the problems above and we discussed ways of combating them.

1. The reason for the "blind" taste test is that many of us have been comparing beefs that we tasted months ago and can't remember the nuances, especially when compared to competitors. Also the "blind" taste test will eliminate any bias that people may have (which we feel is often the root of all rankings). Also, the timing of travel tasting could be an issue since some people could become "beefed out" towards the end, over a 3-4 hour period.

2. I know the sandwiches may change during the commute but I've ordered many beefs to go and still enjoyed them. We feel that having all the beefs to go will add more consistency. We will most likely order the beefs dry with a side of gravy (de-constructed if you will) since that may add to the sandwich integrity. We will also weigh the rankings towards things that most likely won't be compromised, like beef quality and seasoning.

The idea about a giardiniera tasting is a good one and perhaps could be included.

Anyway, thanks for the comments and I'll post the results in a few weeks for those that may have an interest.

Dmnkly wrote:Insane Thought

Heh, I thought that too. I do believe
much will be lost in transporting the beefs.
I say stick with the Beef-a-thon approach,
in situ sampling, of just enough sammich
to form an opinion (maybe bring along
a knife to cut up beefs into 4-5 samples),
thus avoiding pallet fatigue. (Or maybe a
chew-then-spit approach, with much
slurping and swishing, à la wine-tasting .)

tyrus wrote:The reason for the "blind" taste test is that many of us have been comparing beefs that we tasted months ago and can't remember the nuances, especially when compared to competitors.

IMO going to the site will yield more accurate results even though years ago I was involved in a rib tasting involving a limo bus, a keg of beer and 13 rib joints on the south and west side. Lems was my favorite stop on the trip but the consensus winner among all participants was, believe it ot not, Michael Jordan's restaurant which has tainted my personal opinion of the usefulness of these types of events ever since.

You might find the road trip part of the beef-a-thon to be a lot of fun

[quote="iblock9"][quote="tyrus"]but the consensus winner among all participants was, believe it ot not, Michael Jordan's restaurant which has tainted my personal opinion of the usefulness of these types of events ever since.

probably the same kind of people who think Carsons has better ribs than Smoque, or Honey 1...

jimswside wrote:probably the same kind people who think Carsons has better ribs than Smoque, or Honey 1...

(dives behind the nearest upended table)

One thing that I think is often missed in these tests is value. While the amount of beef per dollar isn't the #1 factor, it should at least enter into the discussion. While I like the taste of Johnnies and the original Al's, both would have to rank at the bottom based on value.

Hey tyrus, I assume you've searched for and read all about the Beefathons that we held here over a couple of years. If not, do a search to read about our methodology.

In terms of the places you picked, they seem to all be solid, some would argue that one or more places be added or dropped from the list, but I think you're good overall, at least for the North Side sector.

stevez wrote:Hey tyrus, I assume you've searched for and read all about the Beefathons that we held here over a couple of years. If not, do a search to read about our methodology.

In terms of the places you picked, they seem to all be solid, some would argue that one or more places be added or dropped from the list, but I think you're good overall, at least for the North Side sector.

Thanks stevez. I did read through the beefathons and also looked at a few other non-LTH-related blogs in research. The beefathon is what gave us the idea to try something different to see if the results would be similar. We're thinking of dropping Portillo's for Max's but we'll wait until the week prior to finalize the list. Thanks again...

tyrus, I love the attempt. And I think the methodology is great if one applies it to something that does travel. For IB's you will basically be judging in a disciplined manner which beef sandwich travels best, or can best be reconstituted. That may not be terribly useful information unless someone is planning on IB carryout.

If you were tasting loaves of bread, cheese, wine, or anything meant to travel and be eaten later, it would work perfectly. But not Beef sandwiches since 30 minutes later you will have something very different than what you started out with.

Still, it should be fun.

I would add Max's and the Patio, while probably losing Portillo's, Roma's or Jay's (I would lose Mr Beef, but I recognize that it needs to be there for the purpose of comparison). Isn't Roma's the place that boils the beef? And there are some south side and suburban places that are at least as deserving, but your list is not bad at all.

To midas's point, it would be interesting to weigh all the sandwiches and get a price comparison, though personally I would not let that sway my decision as to which sandwich to buy. If the sandwiches were roughly equal I might go with the better deal, but that usually is not the case. More often I want a good beef sandwich in whatever neighborhood I happen to be visiting, so I pick the most convenient place (gas prices being what they are, plus whatever value I put on my time, I do not think that driving out of my way to get a better value would be truly cost-effective, anyway).

As to buying the sandwiches in components and building them yourselves - I guess it makes some sense, but it also seems to introduce as many issues as it resolves. We did start out the Beefathons ordering dry sandwiches to better compare the building blocks. But it was pointed out that no one actually eats the sandwiches that way, and that it removes the impact of how the sandwich is prepared and served normally. How important is the dipping or application of gravy to a sandwich? Seems to me that the amount of gravy does vary from place to place and has a real impact on the finished product.

PS. Sandwiches packed in paper transport better than those wrapped in aluminum foil. The foil ones seem to continue to cook and get soggier and somewhat overcooked.

As to finding a great little neighborhood joint serving a beef to die for, I look forward to hearing about that. It is hard to serve reliably good IB without a decent level of turnover since the beef tends to become overcooked. Plus the newer places generally have larger menus and do not put as much care in the beef. So a place needs to do a good volume of business and be focused on Italian Beef. Are there a lot of places out there that meet those criteria and have not been mentioned here? I somehow doubt it, but keep up the quest and be sure to report back!

What -- no sausage?

dicksond wrote:As to finding a great little neighborhood joint serving a beef to die for, I look forward to hearing about that. It is hard to serve reliably good IB without a decent level of turnover since the beef tends to become overcooked. Plus the newer places generally have larger menus and do not put as much care in the beef. So a place needs to do a good volume of business and be focused on Italian Beef. Are there a lot of places out there that meet those criteria and have not been mentioned here? I somehow doubt it, but keep up the quest and be sure to report back!

Thanks for the tips. Another reason to do this is to really understand what it takes to make a good beef. I have some family, whose family owned a popular beef stand in Cicero before shutting it down years ago. They were known for their beefs, gravy sandwiches, and giardiniera. Everything was homemade and the giardiniera was all cut by hand. It was so popular that they would ship large containers of it to "friends" in Vegas. They've toyed with the idea of opening another beef stand and still have the old recipes. Although, I'm not affiliated with any part that business, it would be nice to have a mom/pop place that puts out a good neighborhood Chicago beef. If I can lend my beef experiences to them, all the better.

We'll do our best and report back. Thanks again.

jimwdavis wrote:What -- no sausage?

I agree! Actually, we thought about the beef first, and then said that the combo is what really matters and then said, the combo with good fries is what really matters - oh yeah, do they have a good Italian ice?

We gotta start somewhere. Perhaps the sausage / combo testing will be in the future???

Tyrus, good luck with your project. It's definitely worth giving it a try, and I look forward to seeing the results.

DDickson wrote:

It is hard to serve reliably good IB without a decent level of turnover since the beef tends to become overcooked. Plus the newer places generally have larger menus and do not put as much care in the beef. So a place needs to do a good volume of business and be focused on Italian Beef.

My own rule of thumb is to not bother ordering IB at any sit-down place. (It's OK if a stand has a sit-down area, but you have to serve yourself.) The IB will just be an afterthought.

dicksond wrote:I would add Max's and the Patio, while probably losing Portillo's, Roma's or Jay's (I would lose Mr Beef, but I recognize that it needs to be there for the purpose of comparison). Isn't Roma's the place that boils the beef? And there are some south side and suburban places that are at least as deserving, but your list is not bad at all.

I wouldn't count out Jay's anymore. They have made a nice comeback and I've been there quite a few times recently. Been ages since I've been to Roma's but don't remember having any urge to go out of my way to go back there.

I finally got to Max's after at least 30 years. I wasn't impressed with what I saw. 30 years ago beef was about the only thing on the menu. Now, of 5 people in the joint eating, I was the only one that ordered a beef. A perfect example of too much other stuff on the menu to pay attention to the beef.

Not having been present for any of the prior beef-a-thons and having spent much of my formative culinary years away from Chicago, and therefore away from Italian Beef, I would love to see this happen - or better yet contribute.

After reading all of the posts it becomes obvious what a logistical challenge said endeavor would be. Also, no one has really mentioned how important the bread is in this whole situation. I have made, imported, bought beef in many other places over the years but the sandwiches were never really satisfactory served on run of the mill french bread.

Here is how I would envision the the proper way to organize this challenge.

Start by publishing a list of the restaurants included

Have a standardized check list, grading form, or on line response which any interested party can use to judge each of the beefs in question. The grading should take place over the span of a few weeks based on; price, size, flavor, texture, peppers, freshness, etc.

Once a people have completed this portion of the judging we will have a population of tasters whom are familiar with the product and have recently invested a lot of effort into quantifying what constitutes a good beef
(i.e. a good sample group)


After participants have eaten each beef in it's natural habitat and graded them accordingly we should agree upon some central-ish locale where LTH'rs could gather en mass to try the beefs in a blind taste.

-This would be steamer trays of each type of beef with accompanying
bread and accouterments which participants could assemble themselves
there by removing beef construction as a variable

-The beefs could be picked up from the restaurants in the morning and
in such a quantity that freshness of beef and bread should not be an
issue

-The steamer trays would be similar temps and absence of fries and
ambiance should help remove subjectivity related to each location

-The presence of a large group of beef aware persons might elevate the
overall sophistication tasters and help standardize responses.


*This study should be limited to beef and IN NO WAY, EVER, EVER EVER, EXTENDED TO PIZZA since that would inevitably lead to conflict and possible bodily harm

I don't know what the cost would be for this but I have ordered beef by the pound from Johnnies as well as other spots a few times in the past for parties and it is pretty easy.

I throw my hat in the ring to help with this thing anyway possible.

Great idea Third Coast!

I'd love to see this happen and would gladly help produce this.

I agree that Max's has two strikes against it - the breadth of the menu and the relative cuteness of the place. But every rule is made to be broken, and in the case of Max's, the beef is reliably good as they do sell a pretty fair amount of it. The giardinera is an interesting and tasty variant, and we can sample the sinfully wrong ghetto fries along with it.

Guess I need to revisit Jay's.

Roma's beef is actually not bad, but not great. I had a problem with the process - boiling beef seems an even worse sin than having too broad a menu, and being too cute.

tyrus - if your goal is to figure out what goes into making a great IB, then your off site tasting will not work. You need to visit the places, figure out what cuts of meat they use (surprisingly low), how and where the meat is initialy cooked (usually roasted, and that is done off-site in more than a few places), how the gravy is prepared, when the beef meets the gravy and how they assemble the sandwich, including the application of gravy. As an aside, what bread they use, how they make/get their giardinera (most of the good places either make their own or have their own recipe), and how they make french fries are other important issues.

third coast foodie, I agree wholeheartedly that bread is the neglected step child in Chicago Italian Beef sammies. Most places use mediocre rolls. A good crisp French roll improves the sandwich significantly, as you can have the juxtaposition of a soft, gravy filled interior with the tasty, crispy crust. On one of the Beefathons, Gary brought along a Fox & Obel French roll and had Chickies make us a sandwich on it - it was wonderful. Another place, I forget which one but it is in the Beefathon reports, toasted their rolls, which had a similar effect in making a mediocre sandwich quite pleasant.

Traditionalists will undoubtedly be dismayed, much as they were when Portillos tested serving their Maxwell Street Polish on a French Roll (they are back to a poppy seed hot dog bun, btw), but crispy bread does wonders for me. And the rolls are the weak link in the best IB sandwiches.

I think he's just saying that there is a positive correlation for "non-cuteness" and good beef. Cuter the place, lamer the beef. Also, places that try to do too much on the menu usually don't succeed on the quality issue.
Anyway, I guess I gotta give Max's another try. On my one visit, I found the beef sandwich to be very commercial and "processed" tasting, which I chalked up to the jus. Sorta like cheap garlic powder or something. Anyone else feel this way-or am I goofy? (Or both?)

stewed coot wrote:I think he's just saying that there is a positive correlation for "non-cuteness" and good beef. Cuter the place, lamer the beef. Also, places that try to do too much on the menu usually don't succeed on the quality issue.
Anyway, I guess I gotta give Max's another try. On my one visit, I found the beef sandwich to be very commercial and "processed" tasting, which I chalked up to the jus. Sorta like cheap garlic powder or something. Anyone else feel this way-or am I goofy? (Or both?)

Coot,

I am with you. I know I am in the minority but Max's beef does nothing for me. It seems to be consistantly dryer than it should be, despite any amount of jus or giardinara. I do like their giardinara, though.

Yeah, my visit to Max's was also mediocre at best. Nice flavor on the juice, but the beef was overcooked and horribly dry with an awful texture. It was like all of the fat had been completely cooked out of it. But I know that even the best places are sometimes plagued by inconsistency, so I've been meaning to get back.

EdisonParkGuy wrote:Dicksond what does cuteness of the place or breadth of the menu have to do with the quality of the beef at Max's????

Okay, before we argue, let's be sure we are actually arguing, okay? I told tyrus I would go to Max's before I would go to Jay's, Mr Beef and a couple of other places. I like Max's, and in general it rated pretty well in two Beefathon visits, well enough in fact to get into the "finals".

As Coot said, what I was stating were two rules I had for good beef places, rules that apply to some degree to all places.
1. The more money they spend on marketing and packaging the place, the less focused they are on the food. So a place that is done up all cute like Max's is a danger sign for me.
2. The best beef places live and die by their beef. That means they focus on making good beef and have the volume to be serving pretty fresh beef all the time otherwise they are out of business.

It is possible to do a good job and break those rules, but my experience tells me it is a whole lot less likely. A dump that just serves beef, maybe hot dogs and tamales, and fries, better serve good beef. A pretty place like Max's with a menu as big as theirs, well they can survive with mediocre beef.

But that has not been the case in my visits, so EPG, the only beef I think we have is a beef we may choose to share some day.

As to others' comments about mediocre beef at Max's, what you describe is a pretty common problem resulting from letting the beef sit in the gravy too long, or otherwise holding it at a warm or hot temperature. I believe the only reason that should happen at a place like Max's is when the staff is trying to be efficient and ends up being lazy or cheap. They throw a bunch of beef in the gravy before the lunch rush so it will be warm enough and take less time to serve during the rush. Lunch rush ends and there is some beef left in the gravy. They could and should throw it away but instead they put it on your sandwich and you get a crappy sandwich.

There really is no reason to do this. Go to Johnnies and watch them run your beef through the gravy as they prepare your sandwich - it never sits in the gravy. That is true of most of the other top tier beef places, as well.

And my opinion is that a place that takes those types of shortcuts is not a great beef place, specifically because there is no real need to do so and because in off hours you will get crap. The worst by far, is Mr. Beef. Those pre-packaged sandwiches they serve at lunch time are nothing short of a horror. Had to get that off my chest. I know Mr Beef can and does deliver a decent sandwich, tho the beef and gravy are a little bland for me, but between having to survive the gaze of Jay Leno, and knowing they care so little for quality that they will pre-package sammies, I just can't go back there again.

Id like to beat this dead horse a little more and add my "go-to" list that has been 15+ years in the making. My opinion of must try's and a sentence or two about them.

Also, in a blind taste test I could pick out exactly where every one of these beefs is from and when they are on, all these places shine in my book.

That being said however one of the parts that makes eating a beef such an authentic Chicago taste is the shop itself and the atmosphere and feel these places provide. Im only 26 but can feel the fact that most of these spots havent changed a thing since they first opened and thats why they make my list.

Johnnies- I agree with the point above about amount of beef, they can be down right cheap but its still damn good.

Chickies- Thanks to LTH I found this place when I first started reading the site back in '05 and I put them up there in the gold medal cat. Best hot peppers in town.

Jay's (Montrose and Naragganset)- Jay's was my introduction to what a real beef is all about back when I was probaly 7 or 8. Maybe this plays a part but I still go and rank them to be among the top tier.

Pop's (Kedzie)- The other spot where I was introduced to beef. Ive been back in the past year and if your doing a rating on weight with a good product inside, heres your winner.

Patio- I think they serve the best beef on Taylor st and it hasnt changed in 10+ years and that is a good thing to me.

Bostons- Another one of the beef spots that seems to be stuck in a time warp. I never understood why this place doesnt get the love that Al's and Mr Beef get, hell even Portillos. Why is this? same reason people actually eat at subway and Taco Bell...in this city?!?!?!?!?!?

--Places that dont make my list and this isnt because I havent been or forgot are Al's, Mr Beef, Portillos, Max's, Roma's, Carm's, Luke's.

--Places that I am still undecided on giving top tier status are Tore's, Scattchell's. Both these places seem to be missing just one thing and I cant figure it out but they come close.

--If anyone ever decides to do a beef to bread weight ratio study, find me a place that serves a bigger beef than Freddies on 31st.

--My guilty pleasure beef is found at Tony's subs in Deerfield. Its actually a really good sandwich but I wouldnt call it an authentic beef Joseph Ferriola would be proud of.

--Ive mentioned it elsewhere on this board but let me tell you about the absolute worst IB, found at of all places Beefee "Worlds best beef" on North ave. If Hardee's or Burger King was goin to give the beef market a test and release a version of their own, I have a hard time believing they could do anything this bad. Imagine a horse rump cooked til grey and rubbery in some sort of beef bouillon cube in Mexican tap water based broth with spices from Caesar's pantry...the thing this place served was worse.