Anyone tried Buca di Beppo pizza?

Hey all,

In the ongoing search for pizza of all stripes, but mostly with a flavorful, bread-like, thin crust, I stumbled upon Buca di Beppo's website. Needless to say, most things about this 80+ outlet chain (I had no idea!!) are a major turn-off. Fake nostalgia (for an era that never was) and stupid looking portions of food (most of which I know I can do better at home) combined with the "Aaayy, dass-a-nice-a-pasta!" type Italian/American sterotypes make me want to plant a pipe bomb instead of dine there. That being said, a good thin crust pizza is never to be denied, especially in the land of the short-dough, square cut, ... ahem... "pizza." Anyone sampled Buca's pizza (described on the menu as Neapolitan style, wood-fired thin crust)? How would it compare to DOC, Follia, or Cafe Luigi, for example? In related news, I sampled for the first time last night the new Freschetta brick oven pizza (located in your grocer's freezer case - our own Tony Mantuano of Spiaggia is one of the chefs listed on the back of the box as a consultant) and was pleasantly surprised. Maybe the best frozen pizza available on the market - the sauce was a bit sweet, but the crust was very nice - thin, crispy, tasty bread crust that charred and blistered nicely, even in an electric home oven at 425. The 5 cheese blend was also good, not too sharp or rubbery. Good stuff, and they were on sale at Jewel, 3 for 10 bucks (for the small size). Have yet to try the ham and mushroom or the other variety. Curious to know what others think....

Rebbe

hungryrabbi wrote:Fake nostalgia (for an era that never was) and stupid looking portions of food (most of which I know I can do better at home) combined with the "Aaayy, dass-a-nice-a-pasta!" type Italian/American sterotypes make me want to plant a pipe bomb instead of dine there...

I couldn't have said it better...

In related news, I sampled for the first time last night the new Freschetta brick oven pizza (located in your grocer's freezer case - our own Tony Mantuano of Spiaggia is one of the chefs listed on the back of the box as a consultant) and was pleasantly surprised...

But I hate the fact that they insist on pronouncing that spelling of their name as 'Fresh-et-ta', which in turn reinforces the mispronunciation of <bruschetta> as 'broo-shet-ta'... No less irritating then the equally absurd 'Di Zhorno'...Or am I just a curmudgeon...

A

P.S. Rebbe: I'll be in touch about Sicilia!

Antonius wrote:But I hate the fact that they insist on pronouncing that spelling of their name as 'Fresh-et-ta', which in turn reinforces the mispronunciation of <bruschetta> as 'broo-shet-ta'... No less irritating then the equally absurd 'Di Zhorno'...Or am I just a curmudgeon...

Never having taken Italian myself, what would be the proper pronunciations of those labels? One web link transliterated bruschetta as "brusketta" (broo as opposed to bruh?), so does that mean Freschetta would employ a k-sound ("fresketta") as well? Accordingly, is Digiorno pronounced "Di Jee-or'no"?

--Dan

My sister likes to get the Buca pizza and a salad. I didn't find it all that appealing(floppy) and feel the Mediterranean bread at Chicago Pizza and Oven Grinder tastes better with their salad. The Buca pizza is edible, however. I like Buca for large parties. They perform like some others cannot with a large group. The food is not less than average. I also don't mind frequenting some other "corporate" chains others choose to pan. Restaurants, like people, serve different purposes in life.

The next family event is taking place at Olive Garden(yikes!). Our party of usually 10 most often gets terrible service, as restaurants refuse to put two servers on some larger parties. They won't take reservations. I tried to substitute Buca as a much better option.

For a long time, we've stopped going to restaurants with a 10 top. It ends up being stressful event with waiting for drinks, and never seeing servers after the food is delivered, and on and on.

I'm surprised we're trying it again.

Off topic, yes, but, my Mom drives me crazy with these two mispronunciations:

"Expresso" instead of Espresso

"Cup-of-chino" instead of Cappuccino

Even with correction, she refuses to change the way she pronounces it.
Love is blind.

fastfoodsnob wrote:

Antonius wrote:But I hate the fact that they insist on pronouncing that spelling of their name as 'Fresh-et-ta', which in turn reinforces the mispronunciation of <bruschetta> as 'broo-shet-ta'... No less irritating then the equally absurd 'Di Zhorno'...Or am I just a curmudgeon...

Never having taken Italian myself, what would be the proper pronunciations of those labels? One web link transliterated bruschetta as "brusketta" (broo as opposed to bruh?), so does that mean Freschetta would employ a k-sound ("fresketta") as well? Accordingly, is Digiorno pronounced "Di Jee-or'no"?

Dan:

- The letters <c> and <g> in Italian orthography indicate the sounds (using English spelling) of 'k' and 'g' (as in 'goat') before the vowels 'a, o, u' (and in some clusters with certain consonants, e.g. <cr->, <gr->. Before the vowels 'i' and 'e', <c> and <g> indicate in standard Italian sounds roughly equivalent to those indicated in English spelling by 'ch-' and 'j-' (e.g. 'check and 'jar', but also with 'g-' as in 'gentle'). In order to spell the sounds 'k-' and 'g-' (as in English 'cap, kill, gap, gill') before the vowels 'i' and 'e', Italian uses the digraphs <ch-> and <gh->. In other words, <ch-> and <gh-> in Italian always indicate the so-called hard sounds (stops) as in <chilo> 'kilo', <che> 'that' (pronounced roughly like English 'kay'), <ghirlanda> 'garland' or, very commonly, in the combination <chi-> with a further vowel thereafter: <Chianti>, pronounced roughly as 'kyánti'. Less common is <ghi-> + vowel but this is similarly pronounced with the so-called hard 'g', e.g. <ghiaccio>, pronounced roughly as 'gyach-cho'.

Thus <bruschetta> is roughly 'brooskètta', and so *freschetta should be by rules of Italian orthography 'freskètta'

- The frozen pizza-product "Di Giorno" consistently uses an incorrect pronunciation of their name. In this case (unlike "Freschetta"), the name is actually composed of Italian words ('of' + 'day'). The for me very grating mispronunication is their rendering of the initial consonant of the second element as a fricative, like the one in French spelt there with <g-> plus <i> or <e> (<gens, gelée, gigot, gitan>) or <j-> (<Jean, jouer, jambon> and, of course, <jour> 'day'). In standard Italian, this sound essentially does not exist. The correct pronunciation of the <g-> in <giorno, Gennaro, giardino, gianduja> etc., is with the affricate described above which is roughly the same as the sound indicated by initial j- and g- in English 'jerky' and 'general'.

The sound that is so common in French and rendered by <j-> (<jour>) is marginally present in English, though not in word initial position, except in foreign borrowings or names such as 'Zhivago'; it does occur word internally, for example, in 'leisure, pleasure'. But in word initial position it is a marker of foreignness and especially is associated with the (to most English-speakers) highly prestigious French. But it doesn't belong in Italian.

- You bring up a further point which deserves brief treatment. In the sequences <cia-, cio, ciu-, gia- gio-, giu-> in Italian, the 'i' is NOT pronounced as an independent vowel. All it does is indicate that the <c-> and <g-> do not receive the so-called hard sound but rather are rendered like English 'ch-' as in 'chop' and 'j' as in 'Jude'. Thus, the very common rendering of names such 'Giordano' as jee-or-dá-no are vulgur and to be eschewed. The proper pronunciation is roughly 'jordáno'. Similarly, the erstwhile second baseman of the Houston Astro's bears the surname 'Bíj-jo', not 'bee-jee-o' (and certainly NOT 'bee-zhee-o' which I actually heard during this year's playoffs), and a fellow with a steroid problem on the Yankees' roster is not 'jee-ám-bi' but simply 'jam-bi'.



Antonius

Oh, and a pre-emptive strike ...

Lest anyone should take umbrage to my (not real) desire to plant a pipe bomb, rather than dine in, Buca di Beppo (as some of the more, shall we say, sensitive members of LTH will undoubtedly do), let me clarify my statement by saying I would plant a pipe bomb at Buca di Beppo only if there were people in the building. Thanks.

Rebbe

hungryrabbi wrote:only if there were people in the building.

Yeah, that's the way to placate those sensitive folks...

Awesome linguistic breakdown, Antonius.

I agree - anytime I hear someone pronouce the dish of grilled bread with vegetable and olive oil toppings as "broo-SHET-ta" I want to ZHOOT them in the head. (boy I'm feeling violent this morning). But, as "Freschetta" is obviously some made-up name (meant to convey some subliminal combination of "fresh" with a vaguely Italian sounding suffix) the pronunciation of "fresh-ET-ta" is somewhat excusable (though still dead wrong.) Yes, everyone, it's "Broo-SKET-ta", for hopefully the last goddamn time. The Freschetta name reminds me of (and still makes me chuckle at) the NY style pizza place that opened in Sarasota, FL while I was in school there. An Indian gentleman (who actually came pretty close to real NYC style pizza, to his credit) saddled with the "Smith" or "Nguyen" of India opened up his shop and, to give it that Roman flair, named it - -

Patellini's Pizza.

Hilarious. Cappucino as "cup-of-chino"??? That's a new one, but, if you go to, say, Washington Heights in Manhattan or certain neighborhoods in East LA or Miami's Little Havana, asking for a cup of chino will get you, shall we say, a decidedly different type of product. Ahem...

Antonius, what's the proper way to pronounce a "j" on the rare occasion it pops up in Italian?? My only point of reference is with the name of the soccer team, Juventus (which I've always heard pronounced "Yoo-VENT-oos") Is "J" always a "Y" sound in Italian? PS - anytime you're ready for the Sicilia trip, let me know!

Rebbe

hungryrabbi wrote:Oh, and a pre-emptive strike ...

Lest anyone should take umbrage to my (not real) desire to plant a pipe bomb, rather than dine in, Buca di Beppo (as some of the more, shall we say, sensitive members of LTH will undoubtedly do), let me clarify my statement by saying I would plant a pipe bomb at Buca di Beppo only if there were people in the building. Thanks.

Rebbe

Are you the gentleman that demonstrated similar longanimity in the matter of the Lincoln Park porch collapse, or do I have you confused with someone else?

Erik M.

hungryrabbi wrote:Antonius, what's the proper way to pronounce a "j" on the rare occasion it pops up in Italian?? My only point of reference is with the name of the soccer team, Juventus (which I've always heard pronounced "Yoo-VENT-oos") Is "J" always a "Y" sound in Italian?

It is extremely rare in standard Italian... I guess only in some names like Juventus or gianduja, where, as you say, it is just prononced as a 'y' as in 'yoyo'. At Leonidas, the shopgirl there pronounced 'gianduja' alla Spagnola, with the <j> rendered as an 'ach-laut', like the <ch> in Scots 'loch' or German 'Bach': jan-dóo-cha. I thought it was kind of charming, even if quite wrong. Infinitely more forgivable than the CNN anchorwoman's rendering of 'Sarajevo' a couple years back as 'sa-ra-hay-vo'...

I rather like 'cup-o-chino' and 'expresso' (widespread!), since they represent simple partial reanalyses of the foreign term according to native (English) material. And of course, misprouncing foreign words is neither bad nor avoidable (I know for sure I have never pronounced any Chinese name or word correctly). I just don't like pretentiously incorrect pronunciations, especially when foisted on us by company's marketing departments.

But individuals can be egregious in this regard too; I once heard someone speaking very authoritatively on the Food Network about a dish that involves beans and pasta, calling it 'pasta fazhool'. Now, pasta e fagioli (where <-g-> is '-j-' as in 'judge') is good standard Italian, past' 'e fasulë (where <s> = '-z-') is good Napolitano, but 'pasta fazhool' is one of these pretentiously wrong things and especially bizarre in this context where a pseudo-French pronunciation is being employed to try and what? -- render southern Italian peasant food high-fallutin'? Okay. Needless to say, the recipe offered was an overloaded caricature of this very simple mainstay of Italian soul-food.

Again, we all mispronounce foreign words and names; no big deal. But these pretentious monstrocities used in the media, where a simple check of the facts could let them get it right, that's what bugs me.

But I don't think the problem demands correction with pipe-bombs... at least not yet...



A

Yeah, I skeev those mispronunciations too.

Don't forget the Gajas among those with a "j".

I, like any right-thinking person, dislike Buca. But to answer the rabbi, I did on the other board recently point out that the pizza is tolerable in a pinch.

But I did so in the context of wondering why anyone would direct a visitor to Chicago there.

http://www.chowhound.com/midwest/boards/chicago/messages/55009.html

Folks, I find it hard to get worked up about Brush Etta when all around us, Starbuckses are teaching people to say skoan. (Or in Texas, skoewon.) It's a skon, folks! A skoan would be a Scottish koan! (Wot be tha sound oo one timorous beastie cowrin'?) Go listen to the Lumberjack song if you don't believe me!

For my part, I've developed an odd, Clouseau-like pronunciation-- sken-- which satisfies my demand for something that's like "skon" yet doesn't get a "What?" from the registerista. I would like a sken for my minky.

You have no right to get worked up over the wrong pronunciation of a word coined by the most notorious foreign word manglers in the history of colonialism!

Paahsta Boloneese and a nice Kiaahnty, indeed.

Mike G wrote:Folks, I find it hard to get worked up about Brush Etta when all around us, Starbuckses are teaching people to say skoan. (Or in Texas, skoewon.) It's a skon, folks! A skoan would be a Scottish koan! (Wot be tha sound oo one timorous beastie cowrin'?) Go listen to the Lumberjack song if you don't believe me!

With regard to scone:

The Oxford English Dictionary admits the two pronunciations, that is, both the one with the short vowel, which is most widespread in Britain, and the one with the long vowel, which has been favoured (perhaps as a spelling pronunciation) in this country. It must, however, be noted that the conventional spelling of the word <scone>, with the final and silent <e> as marker of root vowel length, points unambiguously to an old pronunciation with a long o-vowel, which could also conceivably be spelt as <scoan> to indicate this same rendering with a long vowel. Scots admits two spellings, namely: <scon>, which reflects the now more widespread variant with a short vowel, and <scone>, which points to the older variant pronunciation with a long vowel; indeed, the spelling<-oCe> in older Scots was regularly used to indicate a long 'o' vowel (as in Eng. 'tone').

That a pronunciation of <scone> with a long vowel, as if it were spelt <scoan>, is not only correct but in a sense historically preferable is made manifest if we consider the etymology of the word. This word all but certainly entered Scots and perhaps also East Midlands usage during the Middle Ages, when many Flemish immigrants were settled in those areas, in England on account of their special skills (e.g., textile production, flood control and land reclamation) or in Scotland where they formed a major element in the establishment of the Scottish »burghs« and the first quasi-urban settlements in the far north of Britain.*

The term <scone> is then most probably from the Middle Dutch schone or schoon, with a long -o- vowel. The word is cognate with German schön and English sheen, meaning in MDu. 'beautiful' but also 'white', 'pure' and 'clean' (in northern Dutch, i.e., in the Netherlands, it means now only 'clean' while in the south, i.e., northern Belgium, it retains the sense of 'beautiful'). In Middle Dutch, when used in reference to bread, it meant specifically 'white', that is, made with refined flour; thus schoon brood 'white bread'. Scones can be and are made with such white flour, as well as with barley-meal and oatmeal. Refined flour was most likely not common before the arrival of the Flemings (and others) and the establishment of the burghs. The borrowing into Scots then and possibly also regionally into English was of the Dutch form with a long vowel, hence the traditional spelling both in English and Scots which indicates a long vowel.

Thus, while the pronunciation 'brushetta' may not bother you, it is, as a recent borrowing from a well known language, simply wrong. On the other hand, the variant pronunciation of scone with a long vowel is not only recognised by the Oxford English Dictionary -- as good an authority on English lexicography as we have -- but it is also the historically older pronunciation which is to this today reflected unambiguously by the spelling. For those who like the pronunciation with a short vowel, British usage supports them, but the long vowel is even better supported by the historical origins of the term, its spelling, and common usage in this country.

But perhaps now that Starbucks has endorsed the one, I too will favour the other.

Now, sken I rather like, if for nothing else then for its eccentricity.

ex cathedra,
Antonius



* Note that the name Fleming is fairly common both in the East Midlands of England and in the Lowlands of Scotland, as in Ian Fleming; note, however, that the name "Pussy Galore" can only be traced in part to Flemish. The first element is perhaps from Flemish poes, with the typical Scots diminutive affixed thereto, hence 'poesie', later, with vocalic shortening 'pussy'. Some scholars have wished to derive the name Galore from the Gaelic go leor 'plenty' but others prefer to see a link to the term 'goliard' (wandering student of the Middle Ages). Still others link it to an obscene term of the Venetian dialect which I dare not publish in present company.

I'd just like to add that whether you pronounce it "scoan," "skahn" or "sken," Starbuck's scones just plain suck and they cost about five times what they are worth. IMHO.

JimInLoganSquare wrote:I'd just like to add that whether you pronounce it "scoan," "skahn" or "sken," Starbuck's scones just plain suck and they cost about five times what they are worth. IMHO.

As does Starbuck's coffee. As the sign in t he independent coffee shop down the street says "Friends don't let friends drink Starbucks."

Antonius wrote:e sound that is so common in French and rendered by <j-> (<jour>) is marginally present in English, though not in word initial position, except in foreign borrowings or names such as 'Zhivago'; it does occur word internally, for example, in 'leisure, pleasure'. But in word initial position it is a marker of foreignness and especially is associated with the (to most English-speakers) highly prestigious French. But it doesn't belong in Italian.

A,

As it so happened, I read your post right before going to meet with my Italian tutor, and I mentioned the Frenchified "g" sound in the Di Giorno commercials. She remarked that such pronunciation has always been very common among her American students -- they tend to soften the intial "g."

I was buying into your theory that the pizza commercial was aping a "more prestigious" sound, but the explanation may be simpler (and less interesting!) than that.

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:As it so happened, I read your post right before going to meet with my Italian tutor, and I mentioned the Frenchified "g" sound in the Di Giorno commercials. She remarked that such pronunciation has always been very common among her American students -- they tend to soften the intial "g."

I was buying into your theory that the pizza commercial was aping a "more prestigious" sound, but the explanation may be simpler (and less interesting!) than that.

David:

Quite some time ago, I also taught Italian for a while and I recollect no such tendency back then but I was a very oppressive schoolmaster ( ). I'm quite certain of a general tendency for Americans to employ Frenchified pronunciations for virtually all foreign words. Nowadays, one also runs into Spanishised pronunciations (cf. the anecdote about the shopgirl at Leonidas) and this reflects, I suppose, the fact that for lots of Americans, their only study of a foreign language is of a bit of Spanish or French in high school or college.

The pseudo-French renderings motivated by prestige are no less striking to me than the necessity of virtually all 'high-class' consumer goods to be mongered by actors with British accents of one sort or another.

With regard to the observation of your tutor, the validity of which I will not doubt, I suspect that you are seeing the results of a now long-standing equation and concomitant process: foreign = French (or maybe Spanish). Note too that even Spanish is subject to this widespread Francification: the Spanish name Chávez is regularly rendered by Americans as 'Shavéz', with the accent in the wrong place and the initial consonant rendered as if it were a French spelling and not a Spanish one. Or for that matter, machete, with the same sound substitution which has no motivation whatsoever on the basis of the sound system of English. Amata has heard someone on Check Please pronounce tres leches as if it were French: [tre lesh] (very lick- what?, lèche-cul?). At Coco Pazzo (or, as I prefer, Poco Cazzo ) I once had to put up with repeated corrections of pronunciation by some post-pubescent waiter who insisted that all Italian words are really to be pronounced à la Française -- details mercifully escape me now.

I am quite certain that this 'zh' for Italian 'g-' as in gente is precisely a manifestation of Francifying substitution. Indeed, the Italian sound is essentially the same as 'j-' and '-dg-' in English 'judge', a consonant that is far more integrated in the English sound system than the Frenchified 'zh', which is limited to word internal position in native English words. Again, this paradigmatic limitation renders the French sound even more salient (especially word initially) and more likely to be imitated -- even when inappropriate -- by English speakers. It is an especially bizarre form of hyper(in)correction.

A rather amusing development in the land of freedom fries...

Sans doute, enfin, selons moi. N'est-ce pas?

Allez!
A

The history of food is not a subject that usually grabs me (by the throat), but combine it with some Antonius-style exposition on orthography, and you've got an off-topic I can appreciate. Thanks for the notes on Italian pronunciations.

This reminds me of some great linguistic faux pas I've been guilty of, whether of an obscure Classical composer's name or the soup at our local Olive Garden. (The waiter corrected my Francofied fagioli; now was the accent on the -gio- or on the -li? I vote for -gio-, as in the second-to-last syllables of ravioli, lasagna, etc. But wait... v before i (in ravioli) and g before n (in lasagna)... argh! That's the best I can figure.) At any rate, my personal highlight was when my German teacher in high school commented that my reading of a textbook passage was the best French-German accent he had ever heard. I guess that's what I get for learning a little (or a bit too much?) French in grade school.

--Dan

fastfoodsnob wrote:At any rate, my personal highlight was when my German teacher in high school commented that my reading of a textbook passage was the best French-German accent he had ever heard. I guess that's what I get for learning a little (or a bit too much?) French in grade school.

Dan:

French-German accent... Alsatian! Great wine, great food, they run most of the bistros in Paris too!


A

1. When I was in England twenty years ago, I was corrected several times on my American pronunciation. It's "skon" instead of "skoan" but then it's "choowk" instead of "chalk". 2. The basketball player, Mark Aguirre, always had his name pronounced as though it was Irish; 3. I was corrected by a Starbucks employee on my pronunciation of currants and I still today don't know if it's "currents" or "cur-ANTS".

P.S. I enjoyed the 'Patellini's Pizza' note... Now, do they have any curry pizzas on the menu?
******

Funny you should ask. As a regular customer at Patellini's, I would constantly break Mr. Patel's coglioni by sauntering up to the counter, and with a big smile, ordering lamb biryani, onion naan, and a lassi to go. He stopped being amused with this after the fourth time, but his wife (forever lurking in the background) always winked at me and smiled. Finally, one day, after I did the 20th variation on the joke ("ahh, not much for me today, Mr. P, just a slice of pepperoni and some vegetable samosas...") his wife busted out the care package - pakoras, poori, saag paneer, pulao, gulab jamun, etc... My jaw hit the floor as she wrapped the stuff up for me, which, needless to say, did not make it back to the car. She sort of adopted me after that, especially when I started helping their son with his homework and his baseball swing. Good times, indeed (until I discovered the Italian bakery and market in Sarasota, Il Panificio, which to this day is still one of the best pizzas I've had, anywhere.)

Reb

Sure, there are countless examples of Americans massacring the pronunciation of foreign words. But the rest of world may very well surpass us by incorporating fractured English into their product names and general vocabulary. The Japanese certainly rank near the top.

I used to pay a daily visit to a bakery in Mexico City and order a delicious, chewy cookie labeled as "chichinbre". I once asked a friend, an anthropologist, about the origin of the name, thinking it may have been an Indian word. I got a real chuckle when my friend told me it was an American word for an American cookie: "gingerbread". I assume the lack of a soft "g" in Spanish was the source of the mispronunciation.

It really doesn't bother me when Americans mispronounce foreign words (actually, for the sake of accuracy, many would say we are "North Americans"). How much of what is considered "proper English" is fractured words borrowed from other languages? Hundreds of years from now, the standard English term for prebaked pizza crust may be "dejarneo".

I like the Spanish word for gum: chicle (pronounced cheeklay). My students don't seem to realize that although I cannot understand most of what they say, I can still pick up on the expletives and "gum".

More about chicle here:
http://www.cesa10.k12.wi.us/Ecosystems/ ... ts/chicle/

Some readers might enjoy the following if you've enjoyed this exchange on linguistics. Hilarious stuff.

The Right Word in the Right Place at the Right Time: Wit and Wisdom from the Popular Language Column in the New York Times Magazine
by William Safire

No Uncertain Terms: More Writing from the Popular "On Language" Column in The New York Times Magazine
by William Safire

Speaking of Italianized basterdizations, a number of years ago, I was doing some work for a certain golden arched fast food giant. They were exploring the idea of going into the pizza delivery business. They decided to test market the concept and opened up a store in Columbus, OH (not 100% sure if I remember Columbus correctly, but I'm pretty sure). They named the store DeLiveri's.

So, uh, anyone tried Buca di Beppo's pizza?

hungryrabbi wrote:So, uh, anyone tried Buca di Beppo's pizza?

Hey, don't change the subject!

Hammond

hungryrabbi wrote:So, uh, anyone tried Buca di Beppo's pizza?

In order to do that, I would have to step foot inside the place, thus ruling out the possibility of it ever happening.

I've tried it, Rabbi. It's like everything at Bucca. It looks better than it tastes. I had visions of a thin cracker like crust under my margherita. Instead, I had a thin paper tasting soggy mess.

Oh, fiddlesticks.

Any polity which contains the Scots, the Welsh, Cockneys and the western Irish (who learn as children to talk like 80-year-old men) undoubtedly can produce a range of pronuciations ranging from skoon to scorn to to esquehn. But I've never heard it pronounced anything but "skon" on British television, and what could possibly be more definitive than that when it comes to determining what the elite thinks the rest of the country should be saying?