Chicago Magazine's BBQ Review

Just a comment here really. The latest Chicago Magazine reviewed 6 BBQ joints, all of which happen to be on the North side (and 1 in Wood Dale). I was extremely surprised to see that some gems on the South side were left out. What the heck?!?!?

rmtraut wrote:Just a comment here really. The latest Chicago Magazine reviewed 6 BBQ joints, all of which happen to be on the North side (and 1 in Wood Dale). I was extremely surprised to see that some gems on the South side were left out. What the heck?!?!?

This is a stark example of the northside bias of most Chicago media, don't you think?

Absolutely. It speaks volumes to the reality that Chicago is truly a segregated city that is divided by the North and South sides. Unfortunate. At least LTH doesn't discriminate.

I realize this will be controversial: LTH doesn't discriminate, but it does still weight; check out the GNR distribution map. Many of the holes are where there are not computer users with a lot of leisure time [a function of neighborhood], voters, or mods / admins [a function of board origin]. I have a hard time believing it's merely a dearth of restaurants thought of as "the best" by the neighborhoods they serve.

This is demographic and not personal - as we all know, the site founders and current GNR voters, along with many community members, go far (hours, days) out of their way to try new places; heck, I'm going to Puerto Vallarta in March largely because of the board. But like rabbits and kakapos ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakapo), we do get into certain well-established 'tracks.' I credit the western and southeastern casinos, and the orchards and vineyards of Southwest Michigan, with increasing the traffic, reviews, and GNR nominations of certain farflung restaurants; like Puerto Vallarta, these are on the usual paths / schema of many LTHers from family habit. Once you find a great place in a neighborhood on one of your paths, it becomes less comfortable and convenient to foray into the adjacent areas.

Exceptions? There are a hundred of 'em. I'm just pointing out a general trend that has no individual fault, and is just a function of this board's particular ethos.

I think this says more about Chicago Magazine than about the city itself or our local media as a whole. Chicago Magazine serves a white, affluent demographic. They rarely focus on dining that would not be in the comfort zone of the majority of their readership. This is nothing new.

As for LTHForum's GNR distribution, Santander, I think you're wrong. There are as many (maybe more) GNRs on the south side of Chicago as there are in the affluent, LTHer-heavy, north suburbs.

Yes, the north side of the city does dominate the number of restaurants on the list, but so does the city's population density. The fewer the amount of people, the fewer the amount of businesses, the fewer restaurants, and the fewer gems. It's just simple math.

I think this community has done an excellent job of exploring the nook's and crannies of this city to find the best there is to offer. The specific goal of the seriously food-obsessed around here is to move beyond the normal and out of the daily grind to find what's being cooked outside of our normal field of vision, and I believe that's being accomplished with an A+.

Is there more our there that's unrecognized? I hope so. (In fact, I just learned about a burger I need to try). But to look at the list of places that LTHForum has talked about and recognized (GNRs or otherwise) and say that we are driven by our demographic is, well, as you said, controversial.

Chicago Magazine serves a white, affluent demographic. They rarely focus on dining that would not be in the comfort zone of the majority of their readership.

I don't see how this statement is any less controversial, Michael - I can think of half a dozen deep South / West side places Chicago Magazine introduced me to long before LTH was even around; that publication has been active for decades, originally coming out of the Tribune. With many middle-class whites, I also rankle at the notion of a comfort zone. While recognizing that I am more adventurous than a generation previous in my own family, my parents aren't the people being "targeted" by Chicago Magazine, and I know just as many people of all ages who are inspired by Chicago Mag to visit other neighborhoods, as those who turn their nose up at the publication. I will at least admit Chicago Magazine is "weighted," the same word I used for LTH, though I never said our own weight or skew was a heavy one; I myself pointed out the demographic factors (which have nothing to do with LTH) which influence the distribution of restaurants, and of electronic readership and stewardship.

But I invite you to reexamine my notion of tracks or paths, influenced by non-culinary factors, in what is most celebrated on the board. I also wouldn't go so far as to paint your (or anyone's) complete opinion as "wrong," even if I disagree with your supporting examples. I bleed LTH (it's kind of a reduced 20-year balsamic vinegar) and am in no way offering a personal critique of any group involved in the site; ironically, I was basically doing exactly the same thing you were with Chicago Mag, in pointing out that there is a demographic skew even in the best culinary writing.

Santander wrote:I don't see how this statement is any less controversial, Michael - I can think of half a dozen deep South / West side places Chicago Magazine introduced me to long before LTH was even around

Here are two pieces of evidence that support my statement:

Demographics: Chicago Magazine Demographics. Sure, they don't give race statistics, but any statistician can look at census statistics and extrapolate.

Content:
The restaurant listings and every single "Best New Restaurant" story in the magazine (including the story that prompted this thread), which generally focus on what's safe and easy. Sure, there are exceptions, and you've found them in the past, but Chicago Magazine has never been a serious source for culinary exploration. The Reader or Time Out, it ain't. Sure, this can be dismissed as opinion, but after a couple decades of consuming the food media in this town, I rank Chicago Mag somewhere near the bottom.

Santander wrote:I also wouldn't go so far as to paint your (or anyone's) complete opinion as "wrong,"even if I disagree with your supporting examples.

Sir, I was not discounting your opinion (which, by definition, cannot be "wrong") but your supporting example. I think your example pointing to the GNR map as an example of demographic skew is incorrect.

Best,
Michael

I'm totally confused. How do all these LTHers have a copy of Chicago Magazine?


For those of us who don't have a subscription, can you please tell me what Chicago Magazine's BBQ recent pearls of wisdom were?

Santander wrote:I can think of half a dozen deep South / West side places Chicago Magazine introduced me to long before LTH was even around...

What were they?

As a very long time subscriber of Chicago Magazine who lives in the southern suburbs, I cannot tell you how many times I have considered cancelling my subscription due to the fact that they don't think there are any decent restaurants in my area. I mean, really. Three? In the entire southern suburbs? And at times over the years, that number has been reduced to one.

I admit, we don't have the wealth of top notch restaurants out here that you have in the city or up north. But there ARE really good places out here, at least as good as some of the places I have tried that are mentioned in Chicago magazine. I also get upset whenever they do a Best Of issue and usually mention, at most, one place (and only one place) out south. One year, it was the Homewood Dairy Queen, which is really the best Dairy Queen ever, but that was the ONLY place in the southern suburbs that they thought was worth mentioning that was worth traveling for? There is a hidden gem of food and culture out here, but practically the only time the southern suburbs are mentioned in CM is when someone does an article about some horrible crime that was committed out here. It's quite sad. Any place past Hyde Park may as well not even exist, in their eyes.

Suzy

I agree that Chicago Magazine may not have the writing talent of say, David Tamarkin or Mike Sula, but they do have a consistency of behavior with reviewing restaurants, and re-reviewing them which no one else does. Most restaurants get better with age and atleast they monitor that. Chicago mag is also much stingier with giving out stars, with only about 20 restaurants in the city being 3 stars or higher.

sdritz wrote:As a very long time subscriber of Chicago Magazine who lives in the southern suburbs, I cannot tell you how many times I have considered cancelling my subscription due to the fact that they don't think there are any decent restaurants in my area. I mean, really. Three? In the entire southern suburbs? And at times over the years, that number has been reduced to one.

I admit, we don't have the wealth of top notch restaurants out here that you have in the city or up north. But there ARE really good places out here, at least as good as some of the places I have tried that are mentioned in Chicago magazine. I also get upset whenever they do a Best Of issue and usually mention, at most, one place (and only one place) out south. One year, it was the Homewood Dairy Queen, which is really the best Dairy Queen ever, but that was the ONLY place in the southern suburbs that they thought was worth mentioning that was worth traveling for? There is a hidden gem of food and culture out here, but practically the only time the southern suburbs are mentioned in CM is when someone does an article about some horrible crime that was committed out here. It's quite sad. Any place past Hyde Park may as well not even exist, in their eyes.

Suzy

Probably going to stir someone's pot here, but it is Chicago magazine, not Chicagoland magazine. I always find it strange when they do their "Best Of Chicago" anything list and it has places in the 'burbs included.

YoYoPedro wrote:Probably going to stir someone's pot here, but it is Chicago magazine, not Chicagoland magazine. I always find it strange when they do their "Best Of Chicago" anything list and it has places in the 'burbs included.

That never, ever crossed my mind, that anyone would expect a magazine named after the largest city in our metropolitan area to limit its coverage to places inside the city limits, simply because of its name. LOL!

Looked at with historical perspective, in the 1970s and 1980s Chicago magazine was the premier place for comprehensive and current review-based restaurant listings. Admittedly, those were the days before the Internet gave us LTH and other forums, as well as searchable Internet access to reviews in print and other media. But in those days, there was no Zagat, and no central place to turn for advice from food enthusiasts. There are many places I tried in those days as a direct result of Chicago magazine's listings (and sometimes as a result of their in-depth reviews). Sure, they may have been concentrated in the greater downtown area and areas north of that, but there were other places listed. I'm sure that's where I heard of Tallgrass in Lockport the first time that I went there and was amazed, and I'm also sure that's where I heard of Carolyn Buster's the Cottage in Calumet City before going there several times beginning shortly after its opening in 1975, when it was still highly unusual for a top-tier restaurant to be owned and run by a female chef. (Tallgrass and Chef-owner Robert Burcenski are still there; wonder where Ms. Buster is now?)

As someone who had to organize GNRs by area of town not so long ago, it is quite remarkable how far the list diverges from where most LTHers seem to live. At least, I assume that it is not the case that five times as many of them live in Chinatown as in Lincoln Park.

As for Chicago magazine's audience, I find (as an ad guy) there's no truer way to judge that than by looking at the ads, since people are backing their opinion of who reads it with their own money.

Hmm, ads for plastic surgeons on the north shore...

I believe the magazine was called "Chicagoing" before it changed its name to Chicago, but even then its food coverage was better than anything else available at the time.

nr706 wrote:I believe the magazine was called "Chicagoing" before it changed its name to Chicago

It was originally called Chicago Guide (I remember this) and changed to its current name around 1974, according to Wikipedia. I have a vague recollection that it may have been originally associated with WTTW and/or WFMT and included their program listings, but I could be wrong about that.

Mike G wrote:As someone who had to organize GNRs by area of town not so long ago, it is quite remarkable how far the list diverges from where most LTHers seem to live. At least, I assume that it is not the case that five times as many of them live in Chinatown as in Lincoln Park.

As for Chicago magazine's audience, I find (as an ad guy) there's no truer way to judge that than by looking at the ads, since people are backing their opinion of who reads it with their own money.

Hmm, ads for plastic surgeons on the north shore...

I'm with you! They have their own magazine up there! But how they love to drive into the city...

I must say that if I had to list my personal favorite barbeque places in Chicago, the northside would be pretty well represented. Since no one has actually listed the Chicago Magazine list, I'll list mine. For me, there are only 7. What can I say? I'm a creature of habit.

1. Honey 1 -northside
2 . Uncle John's- southside
3. Smoque- northside
4. BarbaraAnn's- southside
5. Lem's- southside
6. Coleman's #1- just barely northside
7. Ribs and Fish Unlimited- southside

4 to 3 in favor of the southside. But, two northside places make my top 5 including #1.


Note: My list excludes rib places outside of the city which are quite worthy of consideration (ie, Exsenators and I-57). And, yes, I'm well aware that Fat Willy's isn't on my list. I've never eaten at Merle's or Honky Tonk.

It's also not just a food magazine; the other content is probably what is keeping sdritz from cancelling. But I think their food section is engaging. They do tend to grade conservatively, and make no excuses for their (mostly) City-centric purview. I enjoy the photography and the Budget Bites sections - the first time I heard about Angelica's (Polish on Milwaukee) and Hopleaf was in these mini-blurbs; Cuatro was another find in a non-budget spotlight. Franco's and Franconello's as well. Not edgy, but at least slightly off the beaten path. (PIGMON: Tio Luis was another).

The South Side / far Southwest / South Suburbs places they cover repeatedly include Tallgrass, Tin Fish, Ginger, Koda, Courtright's, and I've seen Stop 50 mentioned a few times. They were all over Valois (I remember an article about the ancient history of this place), La Petit Folie when it opened, and Dixie Kitchen when Gore stopped through while campaigning in '00, all in Hyde Park. While I don't have a link to the current article, they do recommend Lem's, and so can't be said to be ruling out non-middle-class-white neighborhoods:

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magaz ... &cp=1&si=0

They're certainly not a perfect outift. I share with the OP's frustration that Uncle John's, Honky Tonk, Lem's, etc. were left out of the current roundup. I also agree with Michael / eatchicago's point that there is a bias in their coverage. While I think this community does a much better job - maybe apples:oranges, since we're a different media form entirely - I do think we share that bias, perhaps not willingly, but we do. Forums like this, and glossy urban life mags like Chicago, do cater to people with educated opinions and time to kill; that is a certain demographic.

I'd like to challenge Chicago Magazine to deepen its coverage, but I think that challenge goes to us as well. Don't ask me to make a map of all of the events in the past year on the Events board, or to point out some posts expressing frustration with getting reviewers / voters to some GNR nominations and award ceremonies. As with Chicago, a skew still exists. It's a combination of the demographic factors like population density which Michael mentioned above (we're using some of the same points to take slightly different perspectives), but also sociological and sociocultural factors, and we can't deny these.

What we can do (and are doing, with great success, but I can't agree with A+ success), is get as many voices on the board as possible, get events going, influence other media sources (2007 was huge for this), and celebrate wherever celebration is possible. The infrastructure which Michael and the other founders, mods, and techs (often all in the same people) have provided is exactly what is needed; it's the community's responsibility to get others involved, and new explorations, thons, and nominations going.

While this may come across as a tautology - the site is fine, it should keep doing what it's designed to do and then the site will still be fine - I think some circumspection is required to really get everyone at the table. If we're going to slam Chicago Magazine, we can at least acknowledge they are dealing with some of the same challenges we face.

YourPalWill wrote:I must say that if I had to list my personal favorite barbeque places in Chicago, the northside would be pretty well represented.

I don't think anybody's suggesting it's crazy for the North Side to be well represented, it's just ludicrous that any list of great Chicago BBQ places completely ignore the South Side.

Hi,

Those who participate on LTHforum are self-selecting. Ultimately we invite anyone to LTHforum who has an interest in food regardless of race, creed or arbitrary geographical location.

If you want my opinion on the very least represented segment: Northwest Indiana. This situation improved considerably when Rene G and I made an effort to identify and document their food scene. We began by photographing the yellow pages, compiling lists of interesting places with passing mention, then spent our time going around looking and eating. We came back, then began to write up our observations. If someone wrote something in advance of our commenting, we were pleased to fill in additional details and pat them on the back.

If you feel another area is under-represented, then it is a DIY project of getting out there and documenting it. For many years, those of us who live in the suburbs would post local information, then find little to no replies to our efforts. However over time these recommendations were used and sometimes people responded with their own experiences. If nobody knows, nobody goes. If the media takes your lead, great, if they don't there are still people here who follow the home game who will go eventually.

Regards,

nsxtasy wrote:I have a vague recollection that it may have been originally associated with WTTW and/or WFMT and included their program listings, but I could be wrong about that.

Not wrong at all, as it turns out. Additional web browsing turns up this citation:

Chicago magazine was founded in 1952 as a program guide for WFMT, the local public radio station, and it was later expanded as a premium giveaway for WTTW, the local public television station. In 1975, it merged with another city guide, which was called The Chicagoan. In 2002, it was purchased by local ...

This situation improved considerably when Rene G and I made an effort to identify and document their food scene.

This is a brilliant example of the very best of the site to me. The 47th Thon and recent excitement for Hand-Burgers is another. I hope repeat visits ensue by you two and many others whom you've inspired (especially those from these neighborhoods who find the forum by searching on familiar places and pleased to find them represented).

Mike G wrote:

As someone who had to organize GNRs by area of town not so long ago, it is quite remarkable how far the list diverges from where most LTHers seem to live. At least, I assume that it is not the case that five times as many of them live in Chinatown as in Lincoln Park.

I hear you, but it's also very fashionable in this community to love Chinatown and hate Lincoln Park. I've joined a minority of posters in defending LP in several threads and offering useful suggestions instead of writing it off entirely; say what you want about kennyz's callout on the offensiveness of Trixies and Chads as terms, but that general profile does seem to work for many posters as a justification for ignoring that neighborhood.

In contrast, Chinatown seems like the ground zero of authenticity for many of us [the old rich white male MSU alums, cf Quantcast], a place worthy of countless repeat visits, a cradle of culinary civilization (I won't say 'art' ). There is a food quality component to this reverence, but also an anthropological one. We tend to love enclaves, especially entrepreneur-spawning enclaves. Restaurants that strike out on their own, or are a stayover from an older tradition now mostly vanished, I cherish doubly, almost by peristasis, and am especially thrilled when the community finds, and returns, and returns.

Even though they just ended the partnership...for the last year and a half Chicago magazine was the one publication that took a chance and paid me to produce hour long in depth podcasts about food.

They went outside their comfort zone in that respect, letting me talk with chefs and food personalities about arcane methodologies and technique that maybe only LTH'ers and serious food people are interested in. I think that's worth something. Even though I produced the podcasts on Hungry for free prior to that, it took a whole lot of my free time to do so. By becoming a partner, a very fair partner at that (they didn't try to co-opt rights and let me publish on my website also) the income they provided me allowed me to grow as a freelancer and produce in depth stories and the kind of stuff people here care about for many local publications....

Also, while I'm by no means enamored with his writing or style, I do think Dennis Ray Wheaton is a better and more topical writer than Phil Vettel and Pat Bruno in his restaurant reviews....of course this is certainly opinion.

Having written stories and spent countless hours driving around and eating my way through Englewood, Hegewisch, back of yards, chatham, south shore, south chicago etc etc mining for new places, there is something to be said for the dearth of GNR's etc being a function of density and truly available options on the south side....

You know how they look for shipwreck survivors by driving boats in a grid pattern back and forth to meticulously cover stretches of ocean? I've done the same with my car driving through many of these neighborhoods all the way down to Hammond....and you do find spots like Old Fashioned donut, Yassa, Lagniappe etc, but those are few and far between.

I interviewed Mary Madison, the chef at Lagniappe, a citizen and business owner on the south side, someone who's always looking for good food, when she's not cooking, and one of her biggest reason's for opening Lagniappe on 79th was because she couldn't find a lot of healthy high quality items in Auburn Gresham.

That being said, and I haven't seen the issue yet, in my opinion any bbq primer should probably have Uncle John's and Barbara's and Lem's at the very least, unless they qualified the article as covering North side BBQ joints only.

One final thought, Chicago magazine is very disciplined and rigorous when it comes to ethics and anonymity etc...one of the best policies around.

I think that of the ten places I would like to eat at next, eight are on the southside and the other two are in the NW suburbs ...

MJN wrote:Having written stories and spent countless hours driving around and eating my way through Englewood, Hegewisch, back of yards, chatham, south shore, south chicago etc etc mining for new places, there is something to be said for the dearth of GNR's etc being a function of density and truly available options on the south side....

You know how they look for shipwreck survivors by driving boats in a grid pattern back and forth to meticulously cover stretches of ocean? I've done the same with my car driving through many of these neighborhoods all the way down to Hammond....and you do find spots like Old Fashioned donut, Yassa, Lagniappe etc, but those are few and far between.

Additionally the southside has a mind-numbing number of steak and lemonade as well as JJ-ish fish shack imitators. Slight varitions of names and signage to fool people into an Alice-in-Wonderland fast food experience. Leaving poor Alice wondering if she had the real thing or just been had. Rene G is accumulating an astonishing image collection of these look-alikes, which he will share in an expanded post someday.

There are unique businesses like Baylor watermelons, which I wonder could be as well supported anywhere else in the city. Buried deep in a Hegewisch neighborhood is Club 81, Too. When Tacos del Pacifico was still in business, not only did every LTH'r from all corners come to pay homage. So did the media quickly pick up on it's uniqueness. Unfortunately the owners never re-opened, which is tremendously sad because we were ready to support them. How often do people swoon after a Vito and Nick's thin crust pizza? Whenever a southside venue has been identified as destination, it has received its fair share of visitors. Unfortunately as MJN illustrated, there just isn't as many locations that would peak our interest.

Regards,

PIGMON wrote:For those of us who don't have a subscription, can you please tell me what Chicago Magazine's BBQ recent pearls of wisdom were?

PIGMON wrote:

PIGMON wrote:For those of us who don't have a subscription, can you please tell me what Chicago Magazine's BBQ recent pearls of wisdom were?

Since no one is posting the Chicago Magazine list, I'm going to guess. Please note, this is my guess as to Chicago Magazines list, not my top 6 favorite BBQ joints.

Calvin's
Smoke Daddy*
Smoque
Fat Willy's
Honey 1 BBQ
Sweet Baby Ray's (Wood Dale)

I have not received my current copy of Chicago Magazine as of yet, but, if no one posts the list before then, will post how I did.

Enjoy,
Gary

*I'd guess Hecky's instead of Smoke Daddy, but Hecky's is in Evanston

G Wiv wrote:Since no one is posting the Chicago Magazine list, I'm going to guess...

This is funny (and I bet your guess turns out to be pretty right on) because it underscores that mainstream-media journalism has become so effing predictable. Not just Chicago Magazine, but the Trib, the NYT, on and on.

When you know exactly what the MSM is going to say before they do (and unfortunately, this is more and more the case, whatever the topic), their reason for being becomes less and less.

Close, Wiv.

The correct list from Chicago Mag.

Fat Willy's
Honey 1
Honky Tonk
Smoke Shack (800 W. Altgeld)
Smoque
Sweet Baby Ray's (Wood Dale)

Sorry, PIGMON, I thought someone had already posted it.

I haven't read the article yet, but Cookie just looked over my shoulder and said, "I read that whole article. It was stupid." End of her review.

Best,
Michael

Well, Honky Tonk is technically on the south side. I don't think it's very good, but it's on the south side.