Hey, I have said this before but I will say it again since it applies.

I am a big Rick Bayless fan. He has done wonderful things for Mexican food in America, and is a real pioneer who has done almost everything the right way.

I used to be a big Frontera Grill fan, but these days the food they offer their can be found in various forms at hundreds of places in the Chicago area. Authentic, regional Mexican cuisine in all its forms prepared with true love and respect. And almost always at lower prices and with less of a crowd scene. Rick and Frontera deserve their success, just like CT does, but at some point they no longer need my support. I have moved on.

Topolombampo, on the other hand, still operates at a higher level and holds some interest, so I would go back. The crowd is not bad, the experience is more civilized and the food is creative. But the world has caught up with Topo, too, and when I desire that type of food now I have a lot of other choices where 10 years ago Topolobampo was the only option.

It would be churlish to begrudge a deserving place its success, so I celebrate the Frontera empire, but whereas 10 years ago it was the place I recommended in Chicago, these days it is not even in the top five Mexican places for me. In my mind that is not because it is bad, because in general I think it is still usually pretty good, but just because the Chicago world of Mexican cuisine has caught up with Rick.

And you know, I bet he is not unhappy about that state of affairs. After all, he played a big role in making it happen.

dicksond, I think your post summarizes well my current thinking about Frontera, though perhaps I am more interested in visiting now and then than you are.

But I am curious about your thoughts on Topolombapo and similar restaurants. Although I haven't been to Topo in a few years, I was always under the impression that places like Salpicon were not aiming at quite a high level of haute cuisine as Topo. You seem to disagree or you have other restaurants in mind. Could you elaborate on which places you have in mind that are aiming at the same level as Topo?

disksond, which 5 mexican places would be atop your recommendation list?

ronnie_suburban wrote:Frontera is one of those places that I respect but never really crave. I've never had bad food there but sometimes when I eat there, I feel like I'm experiencing a fairly distilled take on the cuisine the place intends to showcase, more than a genuine instance of it.

This reminds me of Vital Information's old (2003!) Chowhound post on Frontera/Not Frontera.

And the LTHForum followup a couple years later.

Aaron Deacon wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:Frontera is one of those places that I respect but never really crave. I've never had bad food there but sometimes when I eat there, I feel like I'm experiencing a fairly distilled take on the cuisine the place intends to showcase, more than a genuine instance of it.

This reminds me of Vital Information's old (2003!) Chowhound post on Frontera/Not Frontera.

And the LTHForum followup a couple years later.

Thanks, Aaron, for the links. It would have surprised me to learn that this discussion -- or ones very similar to it -- hadn't already taken place, at least a few times in the past. Very interesting reading.

=R=

Air Flow wrote:disksond, which 5 mexican places would be atop your recommendation list?

I do not know that there are just five, or that I would call any one of them the best. Here are some places I could happily eat at again and again.

Xni Pec
Amanacer Tapatio
Casa de Samuel
Taco Grill (Westmont)
Taqueria Oaxaquena
La Quebrada (Cicero and Aurora locations)
ByBys (West Chicago)
Islas Marias (Chicago and Aurora)

Then there are the places with good Posole, Carne en su Jugo, etc. And at each and every one of these places I won't have to wait very long, and the bill will be 50% less.

For the most part these places are not anywhere near as nice as Frontera though they each have their own charm. I agree with the comment above that it is hard to find a Margarita as good as at Frontera, unless I make it myself (and it ain't that hard). But a good beer works very well for me, or more often horchata.

Darren, you are right that since Bahena's higher end ventures folded there is not any one place that operates at as high a level as Topolombampo - exactly why I will go back from time to time. But there are a handful of places that are doing high end, creative Mexican and doing a nice job.

I know that reasonable people can have legitimate preferences that differ from mine, but for those of you that think Frontera is less than a uniquely amazing place, well, you're just flat wrong . In the Frontera/ Not Frontera debate, I fall squarely in the camp that says "both." However, if you forced me to give up one, I'm giving up Not Frontera in a heartbeat.

First, let me dispel the myth, here and now, that Frontera is always packed with some astronomical wait for a table. The truth, imo the very sad truth, is that Frontera is struggling a bit these days. Blame it on the economy, blame it on improved competition, or cite the erroneous notion that Frontera has declined over the years - whatever - the bottom line is that crowds don't pour in the way they used to, and on most weekdays you can snag a seat in the bar area with zero wait, anytime of night. Below are 2 pictures taken at about 6PM tonight. When I left at 7:15, the picture was pretty much the same, and is typical of the last 3-4 times I've dined at Frontera.

A Typical Weeknight at Frontera Grill:



Next, for those of you who have the completely insane view that other restaurants have food that is equal too, or, even in the eyes of some extremely delusional folks, better than Frontera, I am sorry that your taste buds have failed you so . For one thing, Frontera Grill changes its menu every month in an effort that requires creativity and culinary skill that other Mexican restaurants simply do not match. More importantly, the flavors and textures are flat out better here than anywhere else in the city! (yes, I just got back from a 3 margaritas, 2 shots of tequila dinner, and this hyperbole might be partially a result of that.).

Tonight's chicharrón de bagre entree was fried fish on crack. Lime and oregano marinated catfish coated in flour seasoned with epazote, fried to a beautiful crisp that still managed to maintain the fish's succulent texture, and served with a tangy salad of pickled vegetables. Well, I defy you to find a seafood dish that rivals this! I LOVE Sol de Mexico and Fonda del Mar, but those guys still have some things to learn from the master.

chicharrón de bagre:


chicharrón de bagre made into the world's best fish taco:


Listen, I love that I've been able to get a seat whenever I want it at Frontera. But for those of you that have been staying away because you're worried about throngs of tourists delaying and frustrating your dining experience - well, stop worrying and stop depriving yourself of the best food in Chicago!

Kennyz wrote: (yes, I just got back from a 3 margaritas, 2 shots of tequila dinner, and this hyperbole might be partially a result of that.).

Before you edit:
I see you've posted the paragraph that begins with the word "Next" twice. I'll assume that will partially be a result of the three marg / two shot dinner as well. I'm just kidding.
Glad you enjoy Frontera and had a good meal there. I really like the place too, and have never been able to understand why Salpicon is sometimes put on the same level.

seebee wrote:

Kennyz wrote: (yes, I just got back from a 3 margaritas, 2 shots of tequila dinner, and this hyperbole might be partially a result of that.).

Before you edit:
I see you've posted the paragraph that begins with the word "Next" twice. I'll assume that will partially be a result of the three marg / two shot dinner as well. I'm just kidding.
Glad you enjoy Frontera and had a good meal there. I really like the place too, and have never been able to understand why Salpicon is sometimes put on the same level.

It seems that I caught this and edited it even before you finished your reply. Impressive, given my state of mind!

I still want to know how they make those tortillas. I have bought masa straight from the factory and made them at home and they were still nowhere near that good (though better than premade store-bought).

Those fish tacos look fantastic BTW.

Bravo, Kenny. Current experiences and hard data go a long way in threads such as this.

Kennyz wrote:I am sorry that your taste buds have failed you so .

Kenny,

I will try to do better, I really will.

Enjoy,
Gary (who has deep appreciation for the over the top hyperbole filled post)

I'm one of the folks that have enjoyed Frontera Grill since the beginning. It was always hard to get in to. The decor is very nice, although Frontera is one of the noisier rooms in Chicago, Topolo is better. The prices have increased, but where have they not? Some better than others, but I have never had a bad meal at Frontera or Topolo in about 100 visits, and many were stunning. We live an hour away from Frontera but we still eat in Chicago at least 30 times/year, and we used to go to Frontera at least 15 times a year, now we go 1-2 times/year. What changed was the host/ess, waiters, busboys. They rarely make mistakes, but they are so businesslike and in such a hurry to turn tables (and my LDC and I are very fast eaters), the experience beyond the food is about as warm as a crowded Denny's. I can't remember a kind word or a smile in years, it's like they're all on a race track, albeit efficiently choreographed. We keep going back, occasionally, hoping they will warm up a little - but we have had the same discouraging treatment every time for at least 5 years. But they pack them in, so I guess they know what they are doing. But I can get a great meal AND be treated much better at lots of other places --- so we do for the most part.

Everyone should go there at least once, but after that YMMV.

Midpack wrote: ...What changed was the host/ess, waiters, busboys. They rarely make mistakes, but they are so businesslike and in such a hurry to turn tables (and my LDC and I are very fast eaters), the experience beyond the food is about as warm as a crowded Denny's. I can't remember a kind word or a smile in years.....

...this could not be a more strikingingly different description of the Frontera service from what I've experienced in several recent visits. Either I'm getting very lucky to catch the service staff in unusually good moods, or you've been very unlucky.

Kennyz wrote:

Midpack wrote: ...What changed was the host/ess, waiters, busboys. They rarely make mistakes, but they are so businesslike and in such a hurry to turn tables (and my LDC and I are very fast eaters), the experience beyond the food is about as warm as a crowded Denny's. I can't remember a kind word or a smile in years.....

...this could not be a more strikingingly different description of the Frontera service from what I've experienced in several recent visits. Either I'm getting very lucky to catch the service staff in unusually good moods, or you've been very unlucky.

Great, we will try them again!

Midpack wrote:I'm one of the folks that have enjoyed Frontera Grill since the beginning. It was always hard to get in to. The decor is very nice, although Frontera is one of the noisier rooms in Chicago, Topolo is better. The prices have increased, but where have they not? Some better than others, but I have never had a bad meal at Frontera or Topolo in about 100 visits, and many were stunning. We live an hour away from Frontera but we still eat in Chicago at least 30 times/year, and we used to go to Frontera at least 15 times a year, now we go 1-2 times/year. What changed was the host/ess, waiters, busboys. They rarely make mistakes, but they are so businesslike and in such a hurry to turn tables (and my LDC and I are very fast eaters), the experience beyond the food is about as warm as a crowded Denny's. I can't remember a kind word or a smile in years, it's like they're all on a race track, albeit efficiently choreographed. We keep going back, occasionally, hoping they will warm up a little - but we have had the same discouraging treatment every time for at least 5 years. But they pack them in, so I guess they know what they are doing. But I can get a great meal AND be treated much better at lots of other places --- so we do for the most part.

Everyone should go there at least once, but after that YMMV.

My experience is just the opposite of yours. I have been going to Frontera since they first opened, quite regularly, for lunch and/or after work cocktails and appetizers. At least two of the host(ess)es, two of the bartenders and quite a few of the waitstaff have been there almost the entire time. I was just there Thursday night and they were all still there, just as warm and friendly as ever. They greet me by name each time, remember my drink and how I like it served. They are always quick with a suggestion on what's new or fresh or especially good that day. It is one of my top five favorite places to go in Chicago primarily for that reason, although I love the food and margaritas as well.

Kennyz wrote: First, let me dispel the myth, here and now, that Frontera is always packed with some astronomical wait for a table. The truth, imo the very sad truth, is that Frontera is struggling a bit these days. Blame it on the economy, blame it on improved competition, or cite the erroneous notion that Frontera has declined over the years - whatever - the bottom line is that crowds don't pour in the way they used to, and on most weekdays you can snag a seat in the bar area with zero wait, anytime of night. Below are 2 pictures taken at about 6PM tonight. When I left at 7:15, the picture was pretty much the same, and is typical of the last 3-4 times I've dined at Frontera.

A Typical Weeknight at Frontera Grill:




Listen, I love that I've been able to get a seat whenever I want it at Frontera. But for those of you that have been staying away because you're worried about throngs of tourists delaying and frustrating your dining experience - well, stop worrying and stop depriving yourself of the best food in Chicago!

I second your motion to visit Frontera early and often, but I was just there Thursday night at about 6:15PM and my friend and I got the last 2 seats in the bar area. Not even at the bar, but along the wall at a very makeshift seating area. And we were lucky to even get those seats. Quite a few people were right behind us, and there were already many people standing at or around the bar. I get into Frontera for margaritas at least a couple of times a month, always midweek, usually around 6 or 6:30PM, and I have NEVER seen it like in your photo. But the crowd is usually waiting to be seated at tables, and the barstools get turned pretty fast, if one has patience. But in my experience, it is almost always SRO at that time of night in the bar at Frontera. I think you got very lucky!

YoYo,

I don't doubt that your description of your experiences is accurate, but I have been to Frontera 5 times in the last 7 weeks, and have had absolutely no trouble getting seated immediately every time. Sometimes the place has been more crowded than in my picture, but never - not once - have I waited to be seated. I have probably not been there on a Thursday. I think all of my visits have been Tues and Wed. Maybe that explains our vastly different perspectives.

Kenny

YoYoPedro wrote:I was just there Thursday night at about 6:15PM and my friend and I got the last 2 seats in the bar area.

Kennyz wrote:I have probably not been there on a Thursday. I think all of my visits have been Tues and Wed. Maybe that explains our vastly different perspectives.

Maybe. A few weeks ago I ate at the other of our two restaurants most well known for not accepting reservations (Avec), and was chatting with the staff about when they are busiest. They mentioned that, in addition to Fridays and Saturdays (obviously) and right before the opera, they often have people waiting on Thursday nights, too.

I wonder whether Thursday is becoming a popular night for dining out (IOW more so than the other weeknights).

nsxtasy wrote:

YoYoPedro wrote:I was just there Thursday night at about 6:15PM and my friend and I got the last 2 seats in the bar area.

Kennyz wrote:I have probably not been there on a Thursday. I think all of my visits have been Tues and Wed. Maybe that explains our vastly different perspectives.

Maybe. A few weeks ago I ate at the other of our two restaurants most well known for not accepting reservations (Avec), and was chatting with the staff about when they are busiest. They mentioned that, in addition to Fridays and Saturdays (obviously) and right before the opera, they often have people waiting on Thursday nights, too.

I wonder whether Thursday is becoming a popular night for dining out (IOW more so than the other weeknights).

As far back as I can remember, Thursday was always my night out of choice. Not necessarily for dining, but for cocktailing, dancing, etc. Fridays and Saturdays were too crowded with "amateurs".

nsxtasy wrote:I wonder whether Thursday is becoming a popular night for dining out (IOW more so than the other weeknights).

Thursday is the new Saturday.

Darren72 wrote:My recollection is that you get enough meat to make about 4 tacos. So, 15/4 means you're talking about roughly $3.75 per taco. They come with the salas, etc. described above and likely use higher quality ingredients than is typical found at the little taco shops.

This isn't to say that the Frontera taco is better, or a better value, than the $1 taco at your favorite place. But is it a rip-off aimed squarely at tourists? Hardly.

(A few also mentioned the $2.50 habanera salsa. Note that this is all-you-can-eat.)

The first thing I think you overlook is the quality of the garnish. The lettuce is amazing. And you are supposed to eat it. Please, taste it. (I see it left on so many plates.) And once you add the peppers and beans to your taco, I end up with about 8 of them. So it's $15 for the most tasty beans and amazing tortillas that I have ever had. The quality is consistent and I believe they changed their reservations policies to allow for smaller parties. I think it changed at the beginning of the year. Also, note that the store Champagne is having a moving sale. That's all I am going to say.

¡Enjoy!

Frontera Grill is a truly special place and we in Chicago are so lucky to have it.

Cheers!

With all this talk of long waits, I seek some advice. What is their waiting list system? Just a list? Will they call us? (I'd be surprised if they had those buzzers you get at Outback Steakhouse, but not that surprised.) And how long can a group of 5 expect to wait on Saturday night? What's the best time to go in order to minimize our wait? Thanks!

fj123 wrote:With all this talk of long waits, I seek some advice. What is their waiting list system? Just a list? Will they call us? (I'd be surprised if they had those buzzers you get at Outback Steakhouse, but not that surprised.) And how long can a group of 5 expect to wait on Saturday night? What's the best time to go in order to minimize our wait? Thanks!

They do indeed have buzzers.

We went with a group of six on a Saturday in the fall, we were quoted two hours when we arrived at 5:15 - we were seated by 6:20....the general rule with Frontera is you want to get their as early as possible, especially with a big group.

I've never done it, but the last time I was there they did offer to take my cell phone and could call when the table was ready.

fj123 wrote:With all this talk of long waits, I seek some advice. What is their waiting list system? Just a list? Will they call us? (I'd be surprised if they had those buzzers you get at Outback Steakhouse, but not that surprised.) And how long can a group of 5 expect to wait on Saturday night? What's the best time to go in order to minimize our wait? Thanks!

They will also take your cell phone number and call when your table is ready. We recently put our names down at about 6:30pm on a Saturday night and told there would be a 3 hour wait.

The wait was indeed 3 hours. Our cell phone rang at 9:30pm, by which time we had already eaten somewhere else.

Definitely arrive early if you are going on a Saturday night. With a group of 5 people, you are less likely to be able to snag any of the free-for-all seats in the bar area.

I'll start by saying I've never yet been to Frontera Grill or Topolobampo, so I have no specific opinion of them. But after reading this thread and thinking about it for a couple of days, I feel obliged to launch a little side rant, on curmudgeonly attitudes toward tourists.

I'm opposed to the mean-spiritedness of curmudgeonly attitudes in general, be they towards suburbanites, or north-siders (I'm guessing this is what you downtowners mean by "Trixies"), or especially tourists. (Well, frankly, it's because I'm opposed to mean-spiritedness in all its forms.)

I say especially because, c'mon, thank God we live in a place interesting enough to attract tourists! There's a reason Rick Bayless and Charlie Trotter and Rick Tramonto and Carlos Nieto and our own beloved Saint Burt of the Burnt-Crust Pizza and so many others are here in the Chicago area instead of, say, Indianapolis. Few food-related things roast my goat more than hearing about people who live in fantastic tourist attractions like New Orleans or San Francisco or New York griping about how the tourists are crowding their favorite places. Do they truly want their local economy to depend on the attractions of, say, Springfield, Illinois?

And am I the only one who thinks there's an unwarranted element of snobbery in thinking "tourists" don't appreciate good food quality as much as "locals"? As if a world-class Chicago chef would dumb down his food because a family from, say, West Lafayette wouldn't be able to tell the difference between his efforts and a special at Ruby Tuesday? A world-class chef has more pride than that.

I say, be glad there's a place like Frontera Grill and a guy like Rick Bayless in Chicago, and if his place is too crowded on the weekends, be glad you're a local and have the luxury of going during the week. I mean, this is Rick Bayless -- I doubt he ever meant for his proudest achievement to be a little 20-square-ft shop under an El station that nobody but Jeff Chowhound Leff knew about.

Rant over.

Katie, I agree with your rant. Tuesday night, Burt told me a story about how he had a tourist in from Korea, who said in broken English, "I come all the way from Korea to try your pizza." He said it made his day, although I'm sure he gets similar appreciative comments from locals all the time.

I say bring on the tourists (especially now, since the dollar is weak and it's cheaper for them). Let them spend their money here, have a good time, and go back home to tell their friends what a good time time they had, leading to their friends coming, dropping money here, and so on, and so on.

Katie wrote:And am I the only one who thinks there's an unwarranted element of snobbery in thinking "tourists" don't appreciate good food quality as much as "locals"?

I agree with everything you said, except this.

It depends on the tourists, and where they're from. I can say definitively that tourists from West Bend, Wis., don't appreciate good food quality as much as Chicago locals.

And I often have my doubts about tourists from New York City.

LAZ wrote:

Katie wrote:And am I the only one who thinks there's an unwarranted element of snobbery in thinking "tourists" don't appreciate good food quality as much as "locals"?

I agree with everything you said, except this.

It depends on the tourists, and where they're from. I can say definitively that tourists from West Bend, Wis., don't appreciate good food quality as much as Chicago locals.

And I often have my doubts about tourists from New York City.

If it were April 1st, I'd understand your post. But I suppose that we all suffer from different senses of humor.

YoYoPedro wrote:I suppose that we all suffer from different senses of humor.

Perhaps. But in this case I suffer from too many rants from New Yorkers about what they think is wrong with Chicago-style pizza.