David Hammond wrote:What seems clear to me is that if there is an identifiable Chicago style of BBQ, many people on this board don't prefer it. That's a matter of taste.

Heck, many people on this board don't prefer or agree with identifiable styles of foods much more closely linked to Chicago. Let anyone assert that "Chicago-style pizza" is deep-dish, and you'll hear a chorus asking why you're slighting South Side flat pizzas or new wave Neapolitans. We recently had a go-around over whether tomatoes and pickle spears belong on hot dogs. Don't forget the chicken Vesuvio wars.

Why should barbecue be different?

There's North Side Chicago-style ribs, and South Side Chicago-style barbecue.

They both exist, they're different, they're both long-standing styles of preparing pork that are (mostly) specific to Chicago. I think there's a much stronger case for saying the south-side variant is actually Chicago style, since the boiled-and-grilled north side version seems to be available nationwide, most notably at Applebee's.

Well said, Ed, and I would add this point: it's fairly easy to find something pretty close to the south side version in Mississippi, where so many people on the south side came from:



That's from Clarksdale, MS. And it didn't only look like tips from Uncle John's or Honey 1.

So it's easy to see where south side BBQ came from and became a distinct Chicago style (especially with the invention of the aquarium smoker). Where it seems pretty clear that, wherever the style served at Twin Anchors, Carson's, Gale Street etc. originated, it does not have strong black roots in Mississippi (allowing for the occasional black cook here and there).

They're separate traditions of something, I'll let others concern themselves with the exact noun.

Mei uw zeeduivel worden vol met wormen.

Just one thing -- several posters here have lumped Carson's ribs in the "boiled meat jello" process. I've never had that kind of texture problems with Carson's -- they're more of a "grilled all the way" methodology. Am I wrong here?

G Wiv wrote:BBQ is not a verb

While I agree with the overall gestalt of this statement, The Oxford English Dictionary disagrees with that Barbecue is not a verb.

Perhaps this is a case for WORD COURT http://www.wordcourt.com

JoelF wrote:Just one thing -- several posters here have lumped Carson's ribs in the "boiled meat jello" process. I've never had that kind of texture problems with Carson's -- they're more of a "grilled all the way" methodology. Am I wrong here?

I lump all the Boil-b-q and Bake-b-q places together as places I avoid.

I want the smell of smoke to hit me in the face when I go to a bbq place. Like Honey 1, the smell of their smoker hits you about a block away.

JoelF wrote:Just one thing -- several posters here have lumped Carson's ribs in the "boiled meat jello" process. I've never had that kind of texture problems with Carson's -- they're more of a "grilled all the way" methodology. Am I wrong here?

I would agree with you on this.

=R=

Don't forget the chicken Vesuvio wars.

This comment made me look up the Vesuvio OP, which had me reading for hours. I love a bit of food-based philosophy. Perhaps we could start a list of Great LTH Debates? I think we should limit it to long chains of posts dedicated to origins, recipies, and definitions of food. The recent Chicago Hot Dog dicussion certainly qualifies.

Does anyone have a link to others? Maybe this should go elsewhere. What do you think, Moderators?

There's at least one clue above.

i have read lots of great comments and input about chicago bbq
i think bbq is a noun and a verb
most of all bbq is a gathering of people having a good time eating smoked meats
people were here or came here from asia and europe
fuel source came from whatever wood was available
food souce came from whatever animals were local and available

my comments and feelings about chicago bbq is that it is a part of illiniois bbq which i feel when you take into account southern ill as well as northern il we produce some fine bbq and fine bbq equipment( weber grills, southern pride smokers, and old hickory pitts smokers) and barbecue sauces that good or bad,right or wrong account for a decent amount of bbq noun and verb and in fact illinois bbq is in my opinion at the head of the second tier of bbq after kc, tx, memphis, and north carolina bbq

as for chicago bbq it is all bbq and for the most part it is all good
south side bbq is based on the old time blacks moving up north and bringing their smoking experiences with them
north side bbq is based on large urban population and different ethinic backrounds and the need to cook in larger volume and offer more choice
folks in the midwest like their sauce tomato base and sweet and thick with clingablility
so the sauce clings to the meat
other things that come to mind representing chicago bbq
baby back ribs, st louis spare ribs, rib tips, hot links, thick and sweet tomato based sauces, quality sides, more choice with protiens, starchs, desserts, a commentment to quality and professionalism associated with large urban populations

i have traveled to many of the bbq markets and like all food and things there is a lot of good and some not so good
to say that it is all this or all that is foolish
bbq continues to evolve just like life itself

lets understand that smoking is slow cooking at 190 degrees or less
roasting is 225 and above
wrapping in foil with fluids is steaming

the most volume bbq guys are the ribbers like at naperville ribfest
they roast and steam
the most knowlegable (they think) are competition bbq guys
they roast and steam
and there is you and me in our backyard
we grill and some of us try to smoke
guys who own restaurants do what they have to do to survive
if you dont have volume you can take more time and put your heart and soul into smoking meats
if you have volume operation like salt lick in texas they seat 1000 people (many would regard this as a very top notch bbq place) and anybody who doesnt is just jealous
i waited 1.5 hours on a thursday night to be seated
they have two old hickory pitts and one southern pride smoker (both made in illinois and the industry satandards for food service)then they have a pitt inside showing folks what there food is going to look like

so in final analisis chicago bbq

is what is is and what it will be as we continue to evolve as a city and a people

in north caroling east part is whole hog chopped into sandwiches with vinegar, peppers, and salt, no catsup and no sugar
lexington bbq (piedmont region of nc) they cook only shoulders and additon to chopping also pull and slice pork shoulders they add small amounts of tomato and sugar to their sauce

in memphis half use sauce and half uses no sauce

in texas its mostly brisket and sausage some spare ribs and beef ribs
30% no sauce 30 % thin vinager pepper sauce and 40 % tomato sweet with degrees of sweetness and thickness

in kc is brisket baby back ribs and burnt ends in a tomto based sweet sauces

no matter where you go people love to talk about bbq and that is part of the fun of it

for me i want to be a bbq guy
we q in my yard
at sweet baby rays
with the church of swinetology competion bbq team
and with the ribbers at napeville ribfest

bbq like chicago is diverse and to know that you have to get out of your own back yard and open up your mouth and your mind

youall have a good day now thanks for reading my 2 cents worth

What would you call cooking with smoke in the range between 190 and 225, since it's neither smoking nor roasting?

..."smoasting"?...

David Hammond wrote:I think it's important to make a distinction between what we want Chicago BBQ to be and what Chicago BBQ actually is.

Speaking as a native and current Chicagoan, aged 50 years, who had the (BBQ) enlightening experience of living in the southwest for for some 7 of those 50 years, what "Chicago BBQ actually is", is generally quite bad.

There's a lot of provincialism, parochialism and elitism written in and on this site at times (speaking as a infrequent poster but regular reader), but I feel as confident about the above assessment as one can.

That said, as always, I could be wrong...

smoking is between 180 and 225
cold smoking is under 180

go to every market in the country and you can find bad anything including bbq
i can tell you how many places can do some thing but not all things
some guys smoke well but dont put much int there sides
some guys some some things well but not everything

i wont comment on bad bbq
what good bbq is
is when you are tired of bbq and full from eating at bbq places
and you get to a good bbq place you still eat the bbq because it is that good

i have recently returned from a trip to the hill country of texas where we went to 26 bbq places ate in 18 of them in 5 days
we had some mighty fine bbq mostly brisket and sausage
many pitmasters not one chef
guess what the meat was great
the sides and desserts were as simple (inexpensive and easily made) as could be
where the meat stood out at most places sides did not stand out at any place

again my positon is bbq is a dialog
you have to see it feel it taste it touch it talk about it smell it

if you dont think chicago bbq is good
my guess is that you really havent beent to too many places in chicago
guys like charlie robinson and fireplace in sell more barbece in 10 days at the taste of chicago every year then most bbq places in the country sell in a year 350-400k
we would do between 8-10k servings on the 3rd of july alone
i have had tens of thousands of people at taste of chicago alone tell me how they
love our bbq
smoque fat willies honey 1 all newer guys keepin it real
old timers like leons and lems as well as other west and south siders who have always been the real deal
i mean come on chicago was know as the hog butchers to the world
we had the protien right in our own back yards do you think that we were to stupid to figure out how to render fat
we can render fat with the best of them it is just that we are more diverse because of the population and location with access to all food from both coasts and plenty of
people to know what to do with it
thanks my story i'm sticking with it
good night and have a pleasant tomorrow

and im sure those thoughts are echoed at picnics parties and festivals across the country

i say with some measure of experience and perspective
in additon to my love of bbq and traveling the country for 20 years selling sauce
we have over 170 bbq books and 30 bbq dvd's free for use at the wood dale location
all you have to do is bring them back when you are done (the books) i will loan out the dvd's too but i would like to have more accountablility with them

chicago has darn good bbq and illinois has a very rich bbq tradition
what bbq means to you might be more up to debate

baby ray wrote:we have over 170 bbq books and 30 bbq dvd's free for use at the wood dale location

That was the thing that perhaps impressed me most on my single visit. It's quite a library!

For me, "Chicago barbecue" means tips, links, or spareribs, cooked in an aquarium smoker, usually at a temperature range a bit hotter than Southern barbecue. I will agree that Chicago barbecue, from my experience at any rate, is normally served quite saucy. In fact, when I was at I-57 Rib Shack last (who do otherwise follow the above traditions), they said flat out I couldn't get sauce on the side (which made me suspect they were holding the ribs in sauce, although the texture didn't support my thesis). To be perfectly honest, I don't think I've ever seen anyone at Lem's, Barbara Ann's, Uncle John's, Exsenators, etc., order sauce on the side, and the default is served with sauce at all these places. Sometimes I get the feeling when I ask for sauce on the side that I'm making some sort of weird white boy request.

I know Binko knows this, but for general reference since we're getting some new readership on this already-epic thread, the default serving at Honky Tonk (Pilsen) is sauceless on all smoked offerings, ready for all weird white boy cravings. Sauce is added only by the diner at the table. While I can't convince those who don't think they're using a "proper smoker," I will point out that it's ironic that this soulless upstart would be honoring such a purist conceit with respect to sauce.

Baby Ray, welcome, and thank you for two remarkably thoughtful posts. Your philosophy is not so different from Dave Anderson's (have you met him? What do you think of those establishments?) and I admire the extensive travel-based research both of you have put into your brands, both of which I like. I'm also glad that many of us who have been using your sauce for 20 years can use it 'to taste' side by side with some very well-smoked barbecue at your Elk Grove and Wood Dale locations.

Can we at least agree that what Chicago means by "barbecue" is pork? That distinguishes it from Texas and Western Kentucky, at least.[/quote]

My first "barbecue" experience was a Barbecue Beef Sandwich at Russell's.

Marshall K wrote:My first "barbecue" experience was a Barbecue Beef Sandwich at Russell's.

LOL . . . when I met my wife, she loved Russell's and always raved about it. Being a north-suburbanite, I'd never had it before. Needless to say, I was seriously underwhelmed when she finally took me there to try it.

I married her in spite of it and tried to teach her the error of her ways.

=R=

Marshall K wrote:Can we at least agree that what Chicago means by "barbecue" is pork? That distinguishes it from Texas and Western Kentucky, at least.

This, at least, it seems we can agree on.

good morning
pork it is
texas and kc is know for beef but brisket much more than beef ribs

my first date with my now wife was at russells on north ave she was 15 i was 18
i was bragging to a friend about that and he said his mom took him to russellls when he was in her womb

in thinking about the question what is chicag style bbq
id sort of have to agree that most dont know cause it is not all that popular
north side and suburban bbq is based on the volume that a few sucessful guys have had and earned a reputation for bbq baby back ribs
south and west sides are pure tradition southen bbq moved up north
then they added rib tips and hot links in the aquariam pitts that have been spoken about
we also have one we used it about two weeks before we found out how inefficient they are to use (happy to sell mine at a extreem discount)
and the new guys are getting bbq right thanks in large part to the food channel
my whole point and what i have been talking about is that iilinois is deserving of respect for bbq noun and verb
eaterys and joints, people and characters, food flavor and taste, passion and commitment
as well as equipment sauces and condiments

add weber's dollar sales globally and it likely would shrink all other markets
throw in kraft #1 in national sales with over 40% retail market share with their 3 brands kraft, kraft thick and spicy and bullseye
sbr is now 100m as a brand in the sauce (some could say we sold too soon)
the dollar volume of fireplace carsons and sbr is likely over 30m a year combined
souther pride and old hickory pits are the industry standard as i mentioned earlier
17 th street bbq in murphysburro (mike mills) and the places and joints in southern il lend lots of creditability to real bbq

we can talk about what chicago bbq really is.... to me it is the combination of what everybody has say maybe more certainly not less

i would agree that the quality is not always there nor is there that many great places
but there is great bbq in chicago and il just not every single time and if you want to pick out a place that you think it is every single time
try going in off peak hours
when the manager or owners are not around
when any one of a 100 or 1000 things could have gone wrong
wellcome to the food business

there is not a person place or thing that cannot be picked apart

im all for thoughts and opinions and the freedom to express them

but if you talk the talk you should be able to walk the walk
if not then you should be asking questions and not slamming things because that is what you think you know

happy sunday get out there and have some fun and go cubbies
i wonder how many days in my 54 years the cubbies have had the best record in baseball
be well and thanks for the kind words

i have not met dave anderson but mr johnson of johnsons bbq in virginia says
dave anderson is a great man
i am not so much of a fan of famous dave's eaterys

my wife grew up in oak park
in additon to russells we would to to petersons for warm cinnamon ice cream and apple pie yummy

David Hammond wrote:

Marshall K wrote:Can we at least agree that what Chicago means by "barbecue" is pork? That distinguishes it from Texas and Western Kentucky, at least.

This, at least, it seems we can agree on.

No, I guess we can't. What you've attributed to Marshall K is actually where he was quoting me and disagreeing:

Marshall K wrote:My first "barbecue" experience was a Barbecue Beef Sandwich at Russell's.

I haven't had the barbecue beef at Russell's. What's it like?

LAZ wrote:

David Hammond wrote:

Marshall K wrote:Can we at least agree that what Chicago means by "barbecue" is pork? That distinguishes it from Texas and Western Kentucky, at least.

This, at least, it seems we can agree on.

No, I guess we can't. What you've attributed to Marshall K is actually where he was quoting me and disagreeing:

Marshall K wrote:My first "barbecue" experience was a Barbecue Beef Sandwich at Russell's.

I haven't had the barbecue beef at Russell's. What's it like?

Ha, yes, I did misinterpret where Marshall K's comment was coming from, though obviously the fact that barbecue beef is served somewhere in Chicagoland does not contradict the premise that pork is primary.

When I went to Russell's for the first time in the mid-70s, we did get the Barbecue Beef Sandwich, which if you haven't had it is not to hard to imagine: thin sliced beef in Russell's signature sweet, clove-heavy sauce.

David Hammond wrote:When I went to Russell's for the first time in the mid-70s, we did get the Barbecue Beef Sandwich, which if you haven't had it is not to hard to imagine: thin sliced beef in Russell's signature sweet, clove-heavy sauce.

I wondered because I have a number of times been invited for "barbecue" that turned out to be ground beef in barbecue sauce, served on hamburger buns. This was called a "sloppy joe" where I grew up and I've been assuming calling it "barbecue" is some kind of Chicago thing. In general, this use has been confined to home cooks, though once it was a private club.

Russell's is basically like a Maid-Rite version of barbecue-- soft and in small pieces, to make it easy to eat at a time when people often didn't have money for dental work. If you look back, a lot of foods from around the time after sugar became widely available, but before the postwar expansion of prosperity in the US, are soft and, basically, gummable like that. Who knows, it may even explain the Chicago fondness for "meat Jello."

Mike G wrote:Russell's is basically like a Maid-Rite version of barbecue-- soft and in small pieces, to make it easy to eat at a time when people often didn't have money for dental work. If you look back, a lot of foods from around the time after sugar became widely available, but before the postwar expansion of prosperity in the US, are soft and, basically, gummable like that. Who knows, it may even explain the Chicago fondness for "meat Jello."

Perhaps increased sugar is related to dental problems which would lead to popular restaurants offering softer foods, filled with sugar, leading to more holes in teeth and increased popularity of such foods.

One of the key characteristics of all quick-service/fast food is that the stuff is usually incredibly soft. I had used to think that this was because it made the stuff easier to eat (for kids and orally handicapped adults) very quickly.

Perhaps increased sugar is related to dental problems which would lead to popular restaurants offering softer foods, filled with sugar, leading to more holes in teeth and increased popularity of such foods.

Yeah, that's basically what I was saying. The classic style of French cuisine in the late 19th century-- purees, aspics, quenelles, etc.-- was also rooted in the fact that people needed soft, easily chewed food. Nouvelle cuisine was not only a reaction against over buttered, over creamed foods, but a reaction against turning the underlying ingredients into mush, no longer necessary as dental care had improved.

I remember reading that one of the Monty Python guys-- Terry Jones, who was a medieval historian-- was bothered by the makeup artist's choice during the making of Monty Python and the Holy Grail to make the teeth of the peasants (in the anarcho-syndicalist commune) look bad, because in fact, teeth stayed pretty healthy in a meat-based, low-sugar diet. It wasn't until sugar became much more common with the development of the sugar plantations in the West Indies that tooth rot became common among, first, the upper classes (eg George Washington), and later society as a whole. But he knew that was the image of the medieval poor, so he had to go along with it.

I had my first Russell's Beef Sandwich in the mid 50's and my teeth were in pretty good shape.

Actually Made-Rites are loose ground beef where as Russells Beef sandwich is chopped beef smothered in sweet sauce.