pickled in chicago

i have what might be called an unnatural love of pickles. if i had the means and was not scared of an incredibly elevated blood pressure level, i'd eat a jar or 5 every day. i've had thousands pickles from all over the chicagoland area and beyond, and i've paid special homage to gus' in NYC. though i appreciate the beauty of good aged, garlic, gherkin, and other types of pickles, what i really prefer is a cold, crunchy new one.

about 5 years ago or so, i paid my one and, unfortunately, only visit to the second incarnation of zweig's, in buffalo grove. i'd been to the niles (?) location lotsa times when it was alive, and did not think anything of the new one. the meal i had there was not terribly memorable, but, the pickles, oh my, the pickles! they were a bit newer than the average new pickle and far superior to any that i'd ever had. i literally must've eaten 10-15 during the course of my lunch. alas, zweig's, part deux, has long since gone the way of its predecessor. i never did ask for the recipe for the pickles (don't know if they knew it or would've given it out), and i've not yet found a pickle that comes close to matching theirs.

it dawned on me that some of you might have been to the second zweig's and know the pickle of which i fawn over. in any event, some might know of a great new pickle served at a chicago restaurant or sold at a store. any recommendations would be most welcome.

foo d,

There is a lot to be said for the pickle.

Though its high salt level is worrisome to some, I love salt and am blessed with blood pressure ratios that always make doctors (or attending nurses) say, HHey, not bad!" (implicitly: "for a guy your age").

Anyhow, pickles on a plate can perk up an otherwise mundane meal, sparking it with flavor dimensions and fresh crunch.

Most of my pickles come from the grocery store/deli.

Currently, I'm eating my way through a jar of pickled okra (Talk O' Texas brand, hot), which I find to be an excellent way to prepare this oleaginous green plug of a vegetable. The vinegar and heat balance the succulent slime of the okra, and the pickling process gives the skin an excellent, toothsome almost reptilian texture.

I also like pickled mango a lot, which I eat on basmati rice, all alone, just pickle, rice and me. So simple and so satisfying...this is the pickle that helped me learn to love fenugreek. I believe I usually get Patak brand, but as I just finished and tossed the last jar, I cannot check on it.

Hammond

Hey foo de,

The pickels you seek can be found at Kaufmann's Bakery/Deli on Dempster. They sell them in the barrel (as well as pickeled tomatoes the same way). You pick the one(s) you want and they charge by the lb.

I'm pretty sure that they are also served at Max & Bennie's in Northbrook.

Kauffman's Bagel Bakery
4905 Dempster
Skikie, IL
847-677-9880

Max & Bennie's Delicatessen
461 Waukegan
Northbrook, IL
847-272-9490

David -

I've been eating pickled okra for years, but have always wondered if most people eat the top stem or toss it out. I do both, depending upon my mood and simultaneous beer intake. Maybe we should start a poll on the topic?

Has anyone tried making pickles? Have you been happy with the results?

ChgoMike wrote:Has anyone tried making pickles? Have you been happy with the results?

I frequently pickle stuff - usually when I know I won't get around to using it while it's still fresh. Just got some pickled okra going Monday ...


(edited for typo)

ChgoMike wrote:Has anyone tried making pickles? Have you been happy with the results?

I make fermented dill pickles as well as quick dill, bread & butter, mustard pickles and whatever else happens to amuse me.

I am not too in love with my dill pickles, though other people really like them. I make them more to give away than to keep.

I like my pickles to have crunch. I do not like to lime them because the 'crunch' is just too artificial. Instead, I pasteurize them by bringing the pickles to a temperature range of 180-184 F for 30 minutes. If you allow the temperature to go any higher, then they will begin to soften.

When I compare the crunch on my pickles to other home canned ones, then I am very, very happy with the results.

I know nothing about pickling, but dearly love the classic half-sour that graces a few deli tables in bowls, and also is marketed by Ba-tamte, and (hallelujah!) in a Trader Joe's taste-alike version.

Just for kicks, I tried buying some pickling cucumbers, then taking the brine left over from 2 recent jars of half-sours and heating it to simmering. I let the pickles simmer for just a couple of minutes, covered. Then turned the heat off and let cool. Then stuck them back in the fridge. A couple of days later they were crunchy, respectable simulacra of my beloved half-sours.

What I need is a recipe for that brine, so that I can start from scratch. The half sour brine is nowhere near as vinegary as the classic dill-pickle brine. It appears to be much more salt, water and garlic and herbs.

But for now, I get a jar of "home made" for every jar I buy and I'm having fun with it.

FYI: I did notice that there are many recipes for pickles of all sorts in the old Joy of Cooking. (I have a 1947 edition I picked up used. I don't know what's in the more recent versions.)

Hi,

I will look through my Joy of Cooking this evening to see what they suggest. The last time the 'original' was updated was in the early 70's. My first efforts at canning was through this good book and failed miserably. Fizzy foods, if you catch my drift.

I have a link to fermenting from the National Center for Home Food Preservation (also on the Useful Stuff board). It offers the basic brine, containers to use, ect. If after reading you have any questions, then please advise.

mrbarolo wrote:I know nothing about pickling, but dearly love the classic half-sour that graces a few deli tables in bowls, and also is marketed by Ba-tamte, and (hallelujah!) in a Trader Joe's taste-alike version.
.....
What I need is a recipe for that brine, so that I can start from scratch. The half sour brine is nowhere near as vinegary as the classic dill-pickle brine. It appears to be much more salt, water and garlic and herbs.

My grandmother and my father always made their own pickles in a ceramic crock. The brine was nothing more than water, salt, peppercorns, and pickling dill.The cucumbers would be layered and packed tightly into the crock for a few days at least. (I'll get the exact instructions from my grandmother). I loved this pickles as a kid.

And the pickles that mrbarolo mentions, spelled "Ba-tampte", are a very close approximation to the home-made taste that I remember. I find Ba-tamptes at Marketplace on Oakton, usually. They make a few varieties, half-sour and the garlic dills being my favorite.

And, for those who are interested, "ba-tampte" is the Yiddish word for "tasty".

Best,
EC

Might be a long shot but would Chipico,Chicago Pickle Company,have what Foo d is looking for?

Pictures of Ba-Tampte products:

http://www.batampte.com/

Best,
EC

eatchicago wrote:Pictures of Ba-Tampte products:

http://www.batampte.com/

Best,
EC

Ba-Tampte reminds me of something I wanted to say in this thread (nothing at all helpful to the original post...)

That is, when it comes to pickles, I feel the way a lot of people think about NYC pizza, and my argument uses the same logic as theirs. I think the standard Chicago deli pickle is good enough, and I like them a lot--think the pickle at Manny's, but it is no way as tasty as the sour pickle associated with NYC deli's. Ba-Tampte's stuff is close but not quite what you can get in NYC (or Miami whose deli's must import its pickles from NYC).

Rob

EC: Should I understand from your description of grand parental pickling technique, that the wee bit of cooking I experimented is unnecessary and that brine and time alone will do the trick?

As I said, I merely heated the broth to simmering and "cooked" the whole cucs for about 2 min. before taking off heat. The results were still fully crisp. But if it's unnecesary, I'll just stop.

mrbarolo wrote:EC: Should I understand from your description of grand parental pickling technique, that the wee bit of cooking I experimented is unnecessary and that brine and time alone will do the trick?

If my memory serves, there was never any cooking involved. It was all time, and possibly pressue. I remember the crock always having a plate and a weight on top.

I'll get more info and report back.

Best,
EC

Hi,

There is no heat involved in fermenting. If you use heat, then you will kill the yeasts present which will do the fermenting.

What you assume to be pressure is really keeping the pickles submerged. When I make dill pickles, I use a 5-gallon food safe plastic container. I put the dill flower heads at the bottom, fill the pickles, dilute salt into water, add some vinegar and fill the container. I take a clean plate to place over the pickles, then use several mason quart jars filled with water on top to make sure the pickles are at least two inches under the water line. I then put a clean towel on top to provide air circulation but keep anything from dropping in. I will check once a day to remove any yeasts or scum which will often form.

If I use dill seeds instead of flower heads, then I pack them into cheesecloth tied with kitchen string ... anything which floats to the top (darn seeds) will get moldy.

Note - Everything has been thoroughly washed and scalded with boiling water.

The warmer the environment the fermentation occurs in , the faster the pickles will be ready. My back basement in late summer is in the 60's, so it is maybe 4 weeks for complete fermentation.

When they are done, I will pastuerize them. Others will keep them in the crock - being sure to remove scum, which is a daily chore - until they are consumed. In this case, plan to make as much as you will enjoy in 6 months.

Regards,

dunno anything about Chipico Chicago Pickle Company. pray tell me more.

I remember seeing posters at both Char House Grill in Morton Grove and Rock L's in Oak Park for Chipico which I learned stands for Chicago Pickle Company.I really don't know anything else about them.I guess you could do a google search.Now I'm curious about them.

You, too, can google!

Chipico is the pickle division of Vienna Beef.

I was just on the phone with Erik M. He recalls a friend who started fermenting pickles on a Sunday, he ate one which he found perfection on Tuesday. By Wednesday, they were not to his liking anymore.

Usually, when I make pickles I am there for the long haul. I thought it may be an interesting experiment to prepare a batch of 30 pickles, eating one per day and evaluating the changes or progress of the fermentation.

I was once at Zingerman's some years ago (Chicago to Roanoke via Grand Rapids), they served us fresh pickles. When I cut into it, it was very obvious these had not finished fermenting because the center was still white. I wasn't so aware then people intentionally ate pickles before their time or before they completed fermenting anyway.

Live and learn!

I was at Kauffman's today and checked on the pickle situation. The new pickles in the barrel are still there. They also have around 6 - 8 kinds of pre bottled pickles on the shelf as well. Ba-Tampte is not among the brands of jarred pickles that they sell, although Ba-Tampte yellow mustard is available.

Well I would have googled sooner but I was getting ready to leave when I posted.But now I am googling Chipico and getting hungry.I see they are also involved in King Kold products.

(I really know nothing about food chemistry/biology so forgive asking obvious questions.)

With half-sours I usually notice a bit of fizz, but with any commercial dill pickle, when you open the jar it's completely flat. Can yeasts live and work in a salt/water solution like pickling brine? It's not like wine where you have all this sugar sitting around to get things going.

From just looking at my Ba-tampte jar, I've pretty well identified pepper corns, mistard seed and dill seed in there. Does anyone know what else might be lurking. There seem to be lots of different colors and sizes of little seeds. Coriander? Fennel? I just can't tell.

An off-topic question: Garlic
Twice in a row I have purchased a new, ostensibly fresh (no sprouting or brownness) heads of garlic and Dominicks only to start cooking and find that they have no - zero- zip - nada- bubkis - aroma or flavor. Is this age, or are they breeding the flavor out of garlic as they did with tomatoes?

mrbarolo wrote:From just looking at my Ba-tampte jar, I've pretty well identified pepper corns, mistard seed and dill seed in there. Does anyone know what else might be lurking. There seem to be lots of different colors and sizes of little seeds. Coriander? Fennel? I just can't tell.

Pickling spices may include mustard seeds, peppercorns, cloves, allspice, dill seeds, bay leaves, mace, even cinnamon. The ones I see most are mustard seeds, peppercorns, allspice, and dill seeds.

-ed

Fantastic article in the NYTimes today about NY pickler Rick Field and his business rickspicksnyc.com.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/12/dinin ... ner=rssnyt
(Free registration required).

I've just placed my first order. I can't wait.

Best,
EC

Mr Barolo wrote:Can yeasts live and work in a salt/water solution like pickling brine?

Yes, indeed they do because during the fermentation process for dill pickles you are daily removing scum from yeasts.

A few times I have had to leave town and nobody was available to babysit the pickles. At the suggestion of a professor at U of I - Champaign, I have added 1/2 cup to 1 cup vinegar to suppress the yeast while I am gone.

As for pickling spices, you can buy a mix or simply make your own to include what you happen to like.

FYI the NYT's had an interesting pickle article in Wednesdays Dining and Wine section.

A Man in a Pickle Jumps Into the Brine

Free, registration required.

Enjoy,
Gary

The plate and weight, as my grandmother explained it, were to force the fermentation gasses to the surface, up and out. This helped keep the pickles crisper, longer, she said. They would get, you should pardon the old family pun, flaccid, otherwise.

Much like the fresh Chinese pickling jar with the inverted bowl on top where a water seal is created. Also for pickles meant to be eaten fresh.

Canned pickles are a whole other story. To preserve crunch, my grandmother always used potassium alum, which is also, by the way, a dead sure cure for a cancer sore.

Hi,

National Center for Home Food Preservation wrote:Store where temperature is between 70F and 75F for about 3 to 4 weeks while fermenting. Temperatures of 55 to 65F are acceptable, but the fermentation will take 5 to 6 weeks. Avoid temperatures above 80F, or pickles will become too soft during fermentation. Fermenting pickles cure slowly. Check the container several times a week and promptly remove surface scum or mold.

The presence of the plate and weights is simply to keep the pickles submerged; otherwise they float. It has no other function. However your Grandmother's explanation does make sure one does weight down their pickles, so no harm done.

Firming agents

National Center for Home Food Preservation wrote:

Alum may be safely used to firm fermented pickles. However, it is unnecessary and is not included in the recipes in this publication. Alum does not improve the firmness of quick-process pickles. The calcium in lime definitely improves pickle firmness. Food-grade lime may be used as a lime-water solution for soaking fresh cucumbers 12 to 24 hours before pickling them. Excess lime absorbed by the cucumbers must be removed to make safe pickles. To remove excess lime, drain the lime-water solution, rinse, and then resoak the cucumbers in fresh water for 1 hour. Repeat the rinsing and soaking steps two more times. To further improve pickle firmness, you may process cucumber pickles for 30 minutes in water at 180F. This process also prevents spoilage, but the water temperature should not fall below 180F. Use a candy or jelly thermometer to check the water temperature.

I have used lime once for bread and butter pickles. It was like biting into styrofoam. I have the impression if you grew up eating it, then you like it. If you don't, then it is an acquired taste, which obviously I didn't acquire.

"SUPER PICKLE" (Half-Sour Recipe incl.) @ Nosh.

Erik M.

Hi,

I looked over the recipe, I would consider using the proportions outlined here as my base model. Especially for the cucumbers, dill, salt, vinegar and water ... the spices in your recipe could be left as-is.

4 lbs of 4-inch pickling cucumbers
2 tbsp dill seed or 4 to 5 heads fresh or dry dill weed
1/2 cup salt
1/4 cup vinegar (5 percent)
8 cups water and one or more of the following ingredients:
2 cloves garlic (optional)
2 dried red peppers (optional)
2 tsp whole mixed pickling spices (optional)

I was interested in the photographs of the pickles. The one on the left is a fully fermented pickle, which is quite respectable though held out as inferior in that blog. The pickle on the right is partially fermented, if you look around the edges you will see the same olive coloring creeping toward the center as you see on the fully fermented pickled. I see the exterior of the pickle on the right is quite bright.

The next time I make fermented dill pickles, August at the earliest, I will take detailed notes and sample day by day with photographs. The pickles are a bright green initially, then at some point turn an olive green.

It really never occured to me to be tasting my pickles in mid-fermentation. Live and learn.