Focaccia? or, "focaccia"

http://www.perkinsrestaurants.com/home.html

the online doesn't list them which begs the question, why bother posting this, but...

Perkins new focaccia melts print-ads offer the most ersatz, white bread, un-focaccia I've ever seen:

think, Texas toast

sigh

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it's tantamount to those restaurants shilling chipotle whatever when the closest a chipotle pepper ever got to a jar of mayo was a sullen glimpse across a crowded room

I came in thinking this was going to be one of those portabello / portobello / portabello / portobella debates, in which case I was going to side with "focaccia," but then ask Antonius about why "Boccaccio" is pronounced hard / soft. On second read, I see what you're after, and join you in snorting at the quotes and proferred item.

I admit, I had to consult Google for the precise placement of the "c's"

Christopher Gordon wrote:I admit, I had to consult Google for the precise placement of the "c's"

While you're at it, check on "beg the question."

Santander wrote:...but then ask Antonius about why "Boccaccio" is pronounced hard / soft...

It isn't, unless it's being mispronounced.

In Italian:

ca = ka (Khaaaaaaaaaan!)
ce = chay (chafe - roughly)
ci = chee (cheese)
co = koh (cola)
cu = ku (cool)

True, Dom. My question is on the orthography vs. the pronunciation of the second syllable in the words I mentioned (both spoken with a hard c sound in these parts, yet the poet gets two and the bread only one in the spelling).

LAZ - you're fighting a losing battle on "begs the question." I would have been with you five years ago but have given up since Oxford and other sources are capitulating to modern usage. Roger Ebert wrote a brilliant column on this which I've lost; here's a lamentation by Safire:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A96E958260

I hasten to add that a search on LTH for "begs the question" leads to a fascinating cross-section of posts, a few of which are very funny.

Santander wrote:True, Dom. My question is on the orthography vs. the pronunciation of the second syllable in the words I mentioned (both spoken with a hard c sound in these parts, yet the poet gets two and the bread only one in the spelling).

Ah, I see. If I understand you now, that's because the double consonant actually indicates a different pronounciation. It's hard to describe without audio, but it indicates a slight hesitation when you hit the consonant. Unfortunately, I can't think of a clear illustration offhand where two words with the single and double are widely pronounced correctly. But the perils of treating the single and double consonants the same are frequently illustrated to first year Italian students when it comes to the difference between "anno" and "ano" in describing your age. The construction in Italian is that you "have X years", so while "ho trentun' anni" means I'm 31 years old (I have 31 years), "ho trentun' ani" means I have 31 anuses. And it's a very subtle difference.

The real speakers can probably come up with a example that will make it immediately clear (I studied for five years -- too bad four of those were the first year, repeated four times ), but double vs. single consonants isn't just a matter of convention. They're actually expressing different sounds.

In Italian:

ca = ka (Khaaaaaaaaaan!)
ce = chay (chafe - roughly)
ci = chee (cheese)
co = koh (cola)
cu = ku (cool)

. . . and for all those bruschetta (brusketta? brushetta?) fans,

che = ke

For some reason "brushetta" is the one the sends me most round the bend. Perhaps because, for whatever reason, it's not only a common mispronunciation, it's also one that seems to provoke mispronouncing miscreant waitpersons to then airliy correct you if you dare to pronounce it correctly yourself. Grrrr.

I'm not one to get all up in anyone's face about perfect pronunciation, but I think that restaurants can at least train people to get the basic sounds right. If your average waitperson can pronounce "linguine" correctly, then it shouldn't take too much extra effort to get "bruschetta" and a handful of wines right too.
It was at a special burgundy wine-tasting dinner that a waiter, years ago, came up to our table and gravely announced that the next wine would be a Volnay Les "calories." There we were, 4 or 5 people, desperately trying not to burst out laughing while the wine description spiel went on and on and we started dropping our napkins on the floor as an excuse to duck out of sight for 5 seconds. Not because we wished the waiter ill in any way, or because we are insufferable snobs (though we may well be), but just because it popped out so perfectly wrong, and with perfect twangy confidence.

As to the original post in the thread, I think what we're dealing with here is "faux-caccia."

mrbarolo wrote:As to the original post in the thread, I think what we're dealing with here is "faux-caccia."

Damn! Beat me to it!

farkakte

Santander wrote:LAZ - you're fighting a losing battle on "begs the question."

Tilting at windmills, I know. I also resist nuclear as "new-cyu-ler" and smoked salmon as "lox."

LAZ wrote:

Santander wrote:LAZ - you're fighting a losing battle on "begs the question."

Tilting at windmills, I know. I also resist nuclear as "new-cyu-ler" and smoked salmon as "lox."

A fight that can't be won is often still worth fighting. The night may come, but that doesn't make lighting a candle a bad idea.

LAZ wrote:

Christopher Gordon wrote:I admit, I had to consult Google for the precise placement of the "c's"

While you're at it, check on "beg the question."

Puhleeze Mary, Saussure had your number a century ago.

I'm always embarrassed to admit, even to myself, that try as I might to remember just what the deal is with "beg the question," I never can. It won't stick. The actual sense of it never quite makes sense to me.

"Nu-cyu-ler" isn't even in the same ballpark, being a pronunciation issue, not a usage one.

What is the derivation of "lox?" I've never known. Is there a connection to "lochs" which would bring us back to smoked salmon, almost too neatly for comfort. Or is there a Yiddish root in there someplace?

As for losing fights being worth fighting, I'd have to say yes and no. I work in the theatre, so obviously I'm fairly committed to the "yes." On the other hand racking up those noble losses and pyrrhic victories does tend to sap one's energy. I believe in carefully picking one's battles, especially the losing ones. And on "begs the question" I cede the field to the vulgar many.

i think lox is the scotch leax

mrbarolo wrote:I'm always embarrassed to admit, even to myself, that try as I might to remember just what the deal is with "beg the question," I never can. It won't stick. The actual sense of it never quite makes sense to me.

"Nu-cyu-ler" isn't even in the same ballpark, being a pronunciation issue, not a usage one.

What is the derivation of "lox?" I've never known. Is there a connection to "lochs" which would bring us back to smoked salmon, almost too neatly for comfort. Or is there a Yiddish root in there someplace?

When I'm not clear on the meaning of an idiom, I just avoid using it. All you really need to remember is that if you use "begs the question" to mean "raises the question" it will cause some people to titter and lump you in with those who say "brew-shetta."

The American term lox derives from Yiddish laks, which comes from German Lachs. They both just mean "salmon," though, so the etymology isn't especially relevant. Previous discussion of lox vs. smoked salmon.

LAZ wrote:

mrbarolo wrote:I'm always embarrassed to admit, even to myself, that try as I might to remember just what the deal is with "beg the question," I never can. It won't stick. The actual sense of it never quite makes sense to me.

"Nu-cyu-ler" isn't even in the same ballpark, being a pronunciation issue, not a usage one.

What is the derivation of "lox?" I've never known. Is there a connection to "lochs" which would bring us back to smoked salmon, almost too neatly for comfort. Or is there a Yiddish root in there someplace?

When I'm not clear on the meaning of an idiom, I just avoid using it. All you really need to remember is that if you use "begs the question" to mean "raises the question" it will cause some people to titter and lump you in with those who say "brew-shetta."

The American term lox derives from Yiddish laks, which comes from German Lachs. They both just mean "salmon," though, so the etymology isn't especially relevant. Previous discussion of lox vs. smoked salmon.

Point taken. However I don't think you're quite there with your reasoning AND perhaps, mispronunciations, vulgarity, and general misapprehension are sometimes deployed as a means to draw one into another's confidence and/or separate the wheat from the pedants.

I'm intrigued, but confused. Exactly whose response and what part of it do you refer to? Are you talking about a strategic use of vulgarity and mispronunciation? (That's certainly the tack I like to take. Or at least it's the rationale I use as a cover.)

"lox¹ Definition

lox (läks)

noun

a variety of salty smoked salmon

Etymology: via Yiddish < Ger lachs, salmon, akin to OE leax, salmon, Tocharian lak i, fish < IE *laksos, salmon < base *lak-, speckled"

emphasis added

OE which etymologically cognate with german as is yiddish

SGFoxe, no one denies that there are all kinds of cognates. You don't say what source you're citing here but standard references are usually not good resources for precise culinary definitions. Also, as has been noted in other such discussions on this site, many dictionaries tend to "cede the field to the vulgar many," as mrbarolo puts it, rather than take a prescriptive stand on correct usage.

Christopher Gordon, since you started this thread by criticizing a restaurant's inapt use of foccacia, tossing the "pedant" stone rather shatters your own argument. By the way, have you actually tasted the product you're picking on or is your derision based only on its advertising?

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less."

You need to reread my original post: I never intended an exploration of the spelling or derivation of the word, "focaccia." I was expressing DISTASTE with the print ad(read: the denotative level of the PHOTOGRAPH) of the "new focaccia melts" at Perkins, which resemble nothing so much as Texas toast...meaning...absolutely nothing like focaccia. It was an attempt at humor, and then drawing upon the continued corporate fascination with all things "chipoLtay." I.E. the mass-ad kultur led deracination of all things supposedly exotic and/or ethnic. I never *said* the use of "focaccia" was inept...I didn't address that part of the equation at all. Others did. Yes, my derision is based on it's advertising.

The website(last I checked) doesn't contain a link to these misapprehended, culinary atrocities: as per Perkins, "if we say it's focaccia, then by god it must be."

mrbarolo: you got the gist