dddane wrote:so one noticeable absence from the above list is Smoque, which has quite a fanfare. I guess the reason for that is obvious... but what exactly do they use? a mix? i was trying to figure it out from the smoque thread but there's so many asides in that thread i never seemed to locate it...

Smoque, whose food I really love, uses a Southern Pride cooker, which is a temperature-controlled, gas-powered convection cooker in which a separate box is used to house and burn wood. In other words, while wood logs and smoke are part of the cooking process, the wood is not the source of the heat that actually cooks the food. So, techincally it is a wood-burner but for purposes of this discussion, I cannot say for sure.

=R=

ronnie_suburban wrote:Smoque, whose food I really love, uses a Southern Pride cooker, which is a temperature-controlled, gas-powered convection cooker in which a separate box is used to house and burn wood. In other words, while wood logs and smoke are part of the cooking process, the wood is not the source of the heat that actually cooks the food. So, techincally it is a wood-burner but for purposes of this discussion, I cannot say for sure.

Since the number of places using Southern Prides is vast -- even the Hyatt Regency O'Hare uses an electric-powered Southern Pride -- the number of "wood-burning" barbecue houses would be much larger if they were included.

Attrill wrote:It takes a different skill level and commitment to go with a live fire vs. other methods.

As impressed as I am with the culinary skills that can turn out great food with live fire, as a diner, all I care about is what the end result tastes like. If they can achieve good flavor by aiming a smoking gun at meat, rubbing it with smoked salt, or leaving it in a room of cigar-puffing politicians, it doesn't make any difference to me.

Surely the point of this thread-- well, the point of the thread when it was conceived, anyway-- was to draw the distinction between places where all the heat is coming from actual wood burning (or at most charcoal-and-wood burning), on the one hand; and any other forms of cooking, gas or electric, where the woodsmoke flavor is an addition to the cooking process, not the process itself, on the other.

In other words, Southern Prides do not produce woodburning barbecue, though they can produce woodsmoked barbecue.

If they can achieve good flavor by aiming a smoking gun at meat, rubbing it with smoked salt, or leaving it in a room of cigar-puffing politicians, it doesn't make any difference to me.

Philosophically, I suppose one would have to agree with this, but practically, is there any major example one can think of where doing things by a drastic shortcut which makes it easier/cheaper for the restaurant produces a result indistinguishable from the time-honored traditional best examples of that food? (I'm sure there's the occasional shortcut that works well, but most of the hard things we still do-- make bread with non-fast-rising yeast, make blue cheese in a cave, take 12 hours to make pulled pork or 12 years to make Scotch-- we do because the results are easy to tell from any easier method's.)

Mike G wrote:Surely the point of this thread-- well, the point of the thread when it was conceived, anyway-- was to draw the distinction between places where all the heat is coming from actual wood burning (or at most charcoal-and-wood burning), on the one hand; and any other forms of cooking, gas or electric, where the woodsmoke flavor is an addition to the cooking process, not the process itself, on the other.

In other words, Southern Prides do not produce woodburning barbecue, though they can produce woodsmoked barbecue.

Philosophically, I suppose one would have to agree with this, but practically, is there any major example one can think of where doing things by a drastic shortcut which makes it easier/cheaper for the restaurant produces a result indistinguishable from the time-honored traditional best examples of that food? (I'm sure there's the occasional shortcut that works well, but most of the hard things we still do-- make bread with non-fast-rising yeast, make blue cheese in a cave, take 12 hours to make pulled pork or 12 years to make Scotch-- we do because the results are easy to tell from any easier method's.)

The arguing over wood burning vs. wood smoked barbecue seems to be one over semantics implying that wood burning is superior to wood smoking and that shortcuts will produce an inferior product.

In my experience, a pork butt or a brisket doesn't care what the heat agent is as long as it is low temperature and consistent. The smoke and the gasses given off by wood is the favoring agent which enhances the flavor of the meat. I believe that it would be very difficult to distinguish pork smoked in a Southern Pride smoker from that of another smoker in a blind taste test as long as some of the variables in the smoking process were controlled.

The issue of time honored methods is also problematic. Are we talking the original method of smoking a whole hog in a dug out pit and mixing all the cuts together or hanging shoulders in an enclosed pit? Many guys on the circuit will cook a brisket for 12-14 hours or more but Myron Mixon I believe only cooks his brisket for around 6 hours (and has won numerous awards in the process). When its all said and done, BBQ like most other styles of cooking is an organic process that is always evolving to meet changing circumstances and these changes are not necessarily bad. Techniques such as brining, injecting and using exotic rubs were never in the repertoire of the old cooks but are used quite extensively now and producing good results. In many of the small BBQ joints in the South, they will be limited in how much product they can produce because of their cooking methods. Now this can work with a restaurant that has a strong reputation and a clientele who will accept these limitations. I would guess though that this wouldn't fly in Chicago especially if someone drove a 1/2 hour to a restaurant only to find that they ran out of ribs by 1 in the afternoon. Our restaurants have to balance the need to produce a quality product with the demands for quantity and a consistent product and some do it better than others.

Would like to hear from Dave Raymond and other owners to see how they view this issue.

I believe that it would be very difficult to distinguish pork smoked in a Southern Pride smoker from that of another smoker in a blind taste test as long as some of the variables in the smoking process were controlled.

Which sort of translates as, "You can't tell pit barbecue from Southern Pride barbecue as long as the guy operating the Southern Pride is good enough at it to make Southern Pride barbecue you can't tell from pit barbecue."

I mean, I agree with your basic point. The process in a Southern Pride is obviously similar enough in terms of time it takes and application of smoke that you can produce very high-quality barbecue. That's a different class of "shortcut" from the boil-b-que style, clearly, which is meant to evoke barbecue in a somewhat abstracted way.

Nevertheless, the thread was about making a list of woodburning places, and so... those are the woodburning places.

Muttster,

Your point about people in Chicago being upset about a restaurant running out of food has been widely talked about in a thread on Smoque BBQ. People in Chicago just don't understand it is a quality over quantity issue and you just can't shortcut the cooking time on brisket and pork butts! A friend of mine and I were just discussing a place in Texas that the guy is only open on Saturdays at 10am. The line starts around 8 or 9 and usually he is out of meat by noon! These people accept it and it is part of the challenge. Here in Chicago everyone just wants to tell Barry the owner of Smoque how he should do his job.

A friend of mine and I were just discussing a place in Texas that the guy is only open on Saturdays at 10am. The line starts around 8 or 9 and usually he is out of meat by noon!

Ah yes, Snow's. Has anyone actually been? I thought about it hard on my recent Austin trip but decided it was probably more of a madhouse than I could subject my family to on the same day we were flying back, and possibly only a media-created frenzy anyway (Texas Monthly discovered it out of nowhere and anointed it the best barbecue in Texas this year). But I am curious and not without regrets...

jhawk1 wrote:Muttster,

Your point about people in Chicago being upset about a restaurant running out of food has been widely talked about in a thread on Smoque BBQ. People in Chicago just don't understand it is a quality over quantity issue and you just can't shortcut the cooking time on brisket and pork butts! A friend of mine and I were just discussing a place in Texas that the guy is only open on Saturdays at 10am. The line starts around 8 or 9 and usually he is out of meat by noon! These people accept it and it is part of the challenge. Here in Chicago everyone just wants to tell Barry the owner of Smoque how he should do his job.

Jhawk1,

Many places cook their briskets and pork butts for long periods but will then put them aside and reheat them when necessary. It would be very difficult if not impossible for a popular restaurant to serve meat right off the grill without reheating as the grills and smokers are just not that big.

I read the article in Texas Monthly I believe as well and would love to try it out when I'm down that way. I think that we all have a part of us would would love to eat in a BBQ joint where the owner knows you and they serve the food piping hot out of the smoker. The places that I have been to like that need to be preserved and cherished. With land and labor costs though, not to ignore the rising price of meat, these places are unfortunately becoming harder and harder to find.

BTW, I wholeheartedly agree with you on the boil-b-que - meat jello is disgusting.

Mike G wrote:

A friend of mine and I were just discussing a place in Texas that the guy is only open on Saturdays at 10am. The line starts around 8 or 9 and usually he is out of meat by noon!

Ah yes, Snow's.

There was a pretty good story on NPR recently about how Snow's is dealing with the notoriety.

hello
smoke is an important ingreadient in bbq that is for sure
we like it pretty smokey in chcicago
alot of youall really like it smokey (ie south and west side glass pits)
out west texas and such very smokey
out east in the carolinas not much smoke at all

to the thread i would say youall are mostly speaking to non metal box cookers
like southern pride and old hickory pitts vs glass pit bbq on the south and west sides of chi town

bbq is all of what you say to varring degree's

for sure time varies by the cooker and the temp they cook at
smoking is said to be between 190 and 225
anything less is cold smoking anything more is roasting
so they say anyhow
i was just at ba's and she told me she didnt even like bbq
i went back two more times till i got there when they were open
and had some really good tips and really great sauce
the lady pit master told me they cook tips for 1 hour
leons has a glass pit in front and a southern pride in the back
we also went to lems twice uncle johns
id like to get to a few more on the south and west side
you all speak to barry and smoke and mr adams at honey1
both very good bbq to me and both the real deal
both excellent examples of guys trying to keep it real
but i know i now have a good representation of chicago, suburban chicago,small places. big places, new and old places, authentic and not so authentic,
i see a place in chicago for boiled and baked ribs but i do not consider them bbq'ed
we cook ours 21/2 to 3 in our metal box
and the box does use 3-4 sticks (logs) every 12 hours or so
and the sticks produce a flame and a smoke
and sometimes we add charcoal and different woods
the the flavor porfile changes with the fuel source
that is how it is
i also dont consider it a shortcut to smoke shoulders 12 hours
and brisket 12-14 hours
that is after they spend a night in the refer with our rub on them

i was at coopers the third best place i ate in texas
they said they smoke there brisket about 6 hours
i asked them what them he cooked at he said hot
he also said that unlike a lot of places they watch their meat when they cook it

we went to sammys in dallas he said he smokes 60 brisket a day 3 days a week and 60 brisket a day the next 3 days and then takes sunday off
he showed us his four pits one had a big long crack in it
sammy said to me with a great deal of pride
you know they never break if you dont use them

the second best place in texas the talor cafe
the most experieced and in my opinion the most knowlegalble bbq man ive met
51 years at his place and he learned in elgin texas at a place that has been q'n over 125 years verril mares is his name
he said he would never serve a brisket the same day it tastes better the next day

at our place we would love to bbq as when it is fresh and out of the smoker
we try to do that during service on thurs fri sat and sun at lunch and dinner
we get fresh ribs not frozen in on thurs for the weekend

for all of the reasons you say i say
some guys just like to eat and eat what they like
some guys like me would never want to judged on just taste or pictures
to me bbq is a dialog it is something you see feel smell taste have fun eating with your friends and family
and it is the result of what you know about q and where you take that feeling or passion

that is my big beef (pun intended) about competion bbq
they uses tons of salt and sugar to inflate the taste of meat and then it is a blind box judgeing so you dont get to know what the guys bbq is about

which i really found out in texas
i went to see the old timers and their places before they went away or i did
clearly the great bbq would not have been as great without the places and faces and stories that went with them as well as the passion and commiment that goes with owning a place from at least 35 years up to 125 years 26 places in 5 days we ate in 18 and none of them had been in bussiness less than 25 years

so i say to all you guys that love the places that you love
that is the bbq for you
chicago is very diverse in population
and as we know bbq too

sorry for rambling on as you must know i love q

A very poetic post, Ray. Great reading.

Muttster wrote:I believe that it would be very difficult to distinguish pork smoked in a Southern Pride smoker from that of another smoker in a blind taste test as long as some of the variables in the smoking process were controlled.

Muttster,

I'm relatively certain I can differentiate between ribs from Honey 1 (Aquarium) and Smoque (Southern Pride) and would be happy to participate in a blind taste test.

Enjoy,
Gary

I'm relatively certain I can differentiate between ribs from Honey 1 (Aquarium) and Smoque (Southern Pride) and would be happy to participate in a blind taste test.

ha, thats what i was gonna say. You've got me on the pulled pork - i think that would be hard simply because it's chopped up and neither place (honey 1 or smoque) has a really great bark, imo.

But ribs, chicken, tips - there's absolutely no question that there is a HUGE texture difference in the outside of those cuts depending on whether youre cooking them in an aquarium or southern pride. huge difference.

I have grown so accustomed to the wonderful bark of Honey 1's ribs that when i went to smoque last and had a rack of spares, i felt that they were sticky. I stick to the brisket at smoque now.

Rene G wrote:So it seems that Ribs 'n' Bibs, in business over 40 years, may be Chicago's oldest wood burner by a wide margin.

Most mentions of Ribs N' Bibs seem to have been by alums of the University of Chicago in conjunction with a drinking/hangover/soak up the grease story, not one mention of taste, style, type of cooker, quality, nada. I naturally assumed it was a BBQ write-off, not unlike the 'BBQ' at countless fried fish joints and hot dog stands, baked saucy no flavor rib pudding, seems I was mistaken.

In operation since 1966 Ribs N' Bibs was burning straight wood at 11:30 am Friday Morning.

Ribs N' Bibs





There are no advertised lunch specials, though when asked a $7 tip special was offered.

Tip Special



My order was comprised of fries straight from a food service provider, but crisp with decent flavor, cup of BBQ sauce with noticeable vinegar kick, I asked for sauce on the side, single slice of bread buried beneath fries and tips and a plastic shot glass of coleslaw that looked so dismal I skirted entirely. Tips are cut on the small side with a light exterior char, scattered pockets of moist fat dotted flesh interspersed with lean chewy spots, a nice representation of texture.

Ribs N' Bibs Rib Tips



I should be clear, Ribs N' Bibs tips are not the magical mystery tour of Honey 1 or Uncle John's and are a tier below Barbara Ann's, but considering I was expecting pork pablum I was well pleased with the quality. Tasting Ribs N' Bibs tips the next day there was a hint of creosote bitterness not in evidence with my breakfast of Moon's Sandwich Shop grits, eggs and corn beef lingering on my palate.

Peter, you and I have been interacting since the days of chi.eats on usenet and, without fail, every time I read one of your posts or (better yet) interact with you in person I learn something, thank you. Also thanks to Santander for the heads up on Ribs N' Bibs burning all wood.

Enjoy,
Gary

Ribs N' Bibs
5300 S Dorchester Ave
Chicago, IL 60615
773-493-0400

Ahh find a old post on Ribs N bibs.