Antonius wrote:The following remarks are intended only to be taken as a critique of general tendencies in the making of Italianate food in this country from the standpoint of the traditionally oriented Italian cook.

To me, the most dreadful overuse/abuse of ingredients involves pizza toppings. I think most Americans view pizza crust as a delivery vehicle for large amounts of gooey cheese piled high with as many toppings as possible. Yes, you can find pizzas in Italy with a variety of toppings, but nothing close to the excessive quantities of kitchen-sink combinations commonly consumed here.

The best pizzas in Italy are mostly crust, some with only a topping of olive oil (pizza Bianca from the Antico Forno in Rome). Sauce and cheese and basil are used sparingly in the classic Neapolitan pizza Margherita. Even the pizza quattro stagioni is lightly topped compared to American pies.

Yes, I have sinned, brothers, but the more I understand pizza, the more I appreciate that pizza is about the crust.

Bill/SFNM

David Hammond wrote:I've already admitted to my preference toward massive quantities of garlic, so I'd like to add that one of my current favorite ways of adding garlic is in the form of dried slices. This Chinese product (Queens' brand) comes in a 7 ounce bag that cost $1.10 at Mitsuwa, contains only garlic, and probably nets out to a large quanity of pre-dried product (there must be the equivalent of 20,30 or more bulbs in the bag). These dehydrated garlic slices are dried, so some of the oils are not quite so active as they are in their fresh form, but these thin slices pack a decent punch, and are great when you need some garlic goodness fast. I sprinkle them over the top of pasta dishes, which I'm sure is probably not in the Italian tradition, but I guess I just really dig garlic in any form.

Hammond

Those sound fantastic and I hadn't noticed them. I'll pick some up next trip!

I was glad to see balsamic vinegar on the original list. It's peculiar, to me, how often balsamic vinegar-- sometimes reduced and very sweet-- is the default salad dressing in a restaurant. A salad should not be sweet. A lot of vinegars have a sweetness to them but a reduced balsamic is way too sweet and aggressive.

For me, where the tomato-sauce hate comes in is (again) with the sweetness. Tomatoes are sweet to begin with, but restaurant sauces often taste like they have sugar in them. It's not that I'm terribly picky in this regard. Some foods do taste better with an edge of sweetness but not every element of a meal should be sweet. I actually find that Italian restaurants are among the safest in this regard. You are usually not going to find fruit on your antipasto tray or in your osso bucco. Go to an Asian or fusion restaurant, and your seared tuna (OK, another overused item, but tasty) is apt to come with a honey-mustard sauce with absolutely no kick to it and totally inappropriate for fish.

Antonius,

Ms. EC requested pasta for her sunday post-tennis dinner. In honor of your original post in this thread, I prepared linguini with an escarole and cannelini bean sauce.

No tomato, no basil, no cheese (grated or otherwise). Just some oregano, light garlic, and olive oil.

Thought you might like to know that your words inspired me to dust off an often-overlooked classic recipe (in my humble opinion).

Best,
Michael / EC

eatchicago wrote:Antonius,

Ms. EC requested pasta for her sunday post-tennis dinner. In honor of your original post in this thread, I prepared linguini with an escarole and cannelini bean sauce.

No tomato, no basil, no cheese (grated or otherwise). Just some oregano, light garlic, and olive oil.

Thought you might like to know that your words inspired me to dust off an often-overlooked classic recipe (in my humble opinion).

Best,
Michael / EC

Michael,

Thank you for the kind words. The dish you describe is indeed beautiful in its simplicity and also remarkably tasty and, for good measure, about as good for one's health as can be.

With this post you remind me that I should have mentioned both beans and greens above when I was answering Ed's question about what I think are the most neglected ingredients. Beans and greens are real staples all through the south but they are also eaten often and prepared with great elegance throughout the north as well. I think I remarked in an acrimonious thread on Italianoid chains about how striking it is to me that they typically offer no dishes which feature beans of any sort (at most, perhaps a ministrone with a couple of beans floating around) and that is downright bizarre to my mind. Fave, ceci, cannelini, borlotti, lenticchie and many others are used as the basis of soups, salads, pasta dishes, as side dishes to meat and fish preparations and even as snacks. Italian cuisine without beans is like American cuisine without beef.

Saluti amichevoli!
A

Antonius wrote:1. Garlic.
2. Basil.
3. Tomato.
4. Grated cheese and in particular parmigiano reggiano.
5. Balsamic vinegar.

So we got the latest issue of Cook's Illustrated. I've rarely been disappointed by their recipes, and although they do get obsessive/compulsive on occasion (butter to shortening ratios, whole/skim milk mixtures, changing temps in ovens multiple times...), they generally have achievable results, and they go for authentic flavors, even if they admit they are shortcutting time or changing ingredients to enhance the intensity of flavor.

So it was with much humor that Antonius' five peccati all appeared in one recipe: their winter fresh-tomato sauce, made by roasting cherry tomatoes with garlic, adding basil, balsamic vinegar and parmigiano reggiano (and hot pepper flakes) to jazz up the flavor.

At least they didn't use angel hair, but of the three pastas they recommended, penne, farfalle and spaghetti, it's unlikely that more than one of those will work with their sauce!

Uh, alea iacta est, as the Romans might have said.

I left balsamic vinegar out of my own pet culinary peeves, but it should have been at the top of the list. When some trixie (or trixor) waitron in an Italianoid (thanks to Antonius for this word) restaurant dumps it on my table, I get that Stalingrad (winter 1942-43) look.

So we got the latest issue of Cook's Illustrated. I've rarely been disappointed by their recipes, and although they do get obsessive/compulsive on occasion (butter to shortening ratios, whole/skim milk mixtures, changing temps in ovens multiple times...), they generally have achievable results, and they go for authentic flavors, even if they admit they are shortcutting time or changing ingredients to enhance the intensity of flavor.

So it was with much humor that Antonius' five peccati all appeared in one recipe: their winter fresh-tomato sauce, made by roasting cherry tomatoes with garlic, adding basil, balsamic vinegar and parmigiano reggiano (and hot pepper flakes) to jazz up the flavor.

I know there are lots of fans of Cook's Illustrated on this board and I have only had exposure to the people who publish that magazine by means of occasionally watching the show they make for PBS and so I have no intention or inclination to attack them in any general way. But I will say that on the couple of occasions I've seen them make Italian dishes on the t.v. show, they didn't get things quite right either from a traditional Italian perspective or from my own experience in the kitchen. That's not to say they did horrible or insane things but rather just that they are there to offer their own opinions on what works best and I don't always agree with them.

Let me just emphasise here that I do not think that there is anything wrong or inauthentic about garlic and tomatoes and parmesan and balsamic vinegar and basil. On the contrary, I love all those things, and a sauce of garlic and cherry tomatoes and basil certainly doesn't sound odd or bad to me (I make that myself). But yes, I don't see the need to add balsamic to that sauce (though perhaps it works splendidly). What I find somewhat peculiar is the use of parmesan along with hot pepper; there's no taboo against using them together but I think parmesan, which is really a delicately flavoured cheese, would be overwhelmed and somewhat wasted. But again, if one wants to use them together, one should do so.

***

I get that Stalingrad (winter 1942-43) look...

That's not good...

A

Choey wrote:When some trixie (or trixor) waitron in an Italianoid (thanks to Antonius for this word) restaurant dumps it on my table, I get that Stalingrad (winter 1942-43) look.

I have similar feelings about the black pepper baton that grinds over every dish, magically imbuing it's oiliness with flavor ... a one dimensional flavor, but a flavor. The indiscriminate application of fresh ground pepper is one of my Italianoid restaurant pet peeves.

Following up on the overuse of basil, I think it's inversely proportional to the underuse of parsley. In my mind, this is one of the more common misconceptions of Italian food in America; that basil is their standard herb, not parsley. Does this in some way relate to an American preference for sweetness over bitterness?

That definitely plays a role in the avoidance of many greens. Not to mention many beverages. An appreciation for the Italian approach to the amari/digestiv/liqueur/aperitif is wholly missing. It's not so much that an ingredient is missing, but a whole category of flavors; the bitter. The combinations of sweet/sour and sweet/spicy that you find in certain Italian regions.

I cannot say for certain that this is a great sin, but I am bothered by the use of kalamata olives - if not black canned golf ball sized olive impersonators - at your run of the mill Italo-American joint.

I'd also be very pleased if more places explored Italian sweets - and I use the word "sweets" as a conscious contrast with desserts.

Speaking of beans, has anyone taken a look at the book "Fagioli: The Bean Cuisine of Italy?" My exploration of Mediterranean food has given me a great appreciation for the variety of beans and their versatility. If this book is any good, seems like a worthy addition to my library.

rien

rien wrote:

Choey wrote:When some trixie (or trixor) waitron in an Italianoid (thanks to Antonius for this word) restaurant dumps it on my table, I get that Stalingrad (winter 1942-43) look.

I have similar feelings about the black pepper baton that grinds over every dish, magically imbuing it's oiliness with flavor ... a one dimensional flavor, but a flavor. The indiscriminate application of fresh ground pepper is one of my Italianoid restaurant pet peeves.

Of course, an individual's objection to widespread use of freshly ground black pepper cannot and should not be disputed but in Italian cooking generally and especially in the cooking of South/Central Italy, it is used very extensively and, like parsley, is all but ubiquitous. It even occurs in a number of traditional sweets.

What I hate in restaurants is the ritual they make of grinding the pepper onto your food for you; leave the grinder and don't make me feel bad about giving the maître de poivre tennis elbow.

Comparing Italianoid and Italianate and Italian food in America with traditional cooking in Italy, I think there is a strong tendency here to use much more red chile than they do in the old country. Yes, there are certain zones where pepperoncini are used a fair amount and certain dishes take a dose even in areas where it isn't used much, but in much of Italy and in many specific dishes, piquancy is achieved through the use of lots of freshly ground black pepper. But with both black and red pepper, individual preferences reign supreme.

Following up on the overuse of basil, I think it's inversely proportional to the underuse of parsley. In my mind, this is one of the more common misconceptions of Italian food in America; that basil is their standard herb, not parsley. Does this in some way relate to an American preference for sweetness over bitterness?

You're right, parsley goes into just about everything, so much so that in a way, I don't think of it as an herb or at least it has it's own category in that department.

That definitely plays a role in the avoidance of many greens. Not to mention many beverages. An appreciation for the Italian approach to the amari/digestiv/liqueur/aperitif is wholly missing. It's not so much that an ingredient is missing, but a whole category of flavors; the bitter. The combinations of sweet/sour and sweet/spicy that you find in certain Italian regions.

With regard to the question of bitterness in Italy and here, I call attention to the following little post I made last summer which focusses on beverages but discusses also bitter greens: L'Amore dell'Amaro.

I cannot say for certain that this is a great sin, but I am bothered by the use of kalamata olives - if not black canned golf ball sized olive impersonators - at your run of the mill Italo-American joint.

The canned California olives do not belong in refined cooking but I think there is nothing wrong with the use of Kalamatas in place of generally similar Italian varieties not so readily available here. To my mind, Kalamatas are the best of their sort of table olives and that sort is the best sort of table olives. And in my experience, they are the only black olives that one can consistently obtain around here that are fresh and meaty. Gaeta olives are a favourite of mine (Gaeta is the nearest city to where most of my family is from in Italy and that is the basic olive of the region) but I have largely given up trying to get them here after bringing home tired, mushy and stale olives too many times from various places. Turn-over is an important factor and there just isn't enough business to assure a constant flow of good quality olives for many varieties here.*

I'd also be very pleased if more places explored Italian sweets - and I use the word "sweets" as a conscious contrast with desserts.

Yes, the distinction is a good one for, as I've said elsewhere, Italians generally don't eat desserts that often or at least not habitually. Indeed, in Italy many eateries don't offer desserts, 'sweets' being consumed on their own at other times and in other places -- they are not conceived of as necessarily being a part of a main meal.

Antonius

*The olives of all types sold at Fox and Obel have always been good in my experience but I am able (and willing) to visit that store only once in a while.

Post-site-move character problems fixed.

Antonius wrote:Of course, an individual's objection to widespread use of freshly ground black pepper cannot and should not be disputed but in Italian cooking generally and especially in the cooking of South/Central Italy, it is used very extensively and, like parsley, is all but ubiquitous. It even occurs in a number of traditional sweets.

Indeed. Rome, having fended of invasion by bartering pepper, seems to be ground zero. The afforementioned cacio e pepe is one of my staple fast foods. I even made pan pepato for the holidays. It is the idea that it goes on everything that bothers me, be it subtle or bold, heavily seasoned or delicate. It might even be humorous to order cacio e pepe and see the waiter ceremoniously offer more pepper, transforming the dish (kicking it up a notch as some might say) into cacio e pepe (e piu pepe). As you mentioned, the ceremony is also a bother ... as if I am not properly trained to operate a pepper mill. Perhaps if I brought me certification and union credentials? As the meal progressed and drunkenness took over, just think of the horrible grinding accidents that could result from operating the mill with dulled reflexes and diminished alertness.

On the olive topic, I usually Alphonso in place of Gaeta, though they too are subject to textural problems. Are Kalamata's a better substitute? It almost seems that there are different styles of Kalamatas around. The smaller and firmer variety being more common, whereas Kalamatas at Athens Market are larger and a bit softer. I prefer the latter and do see them as a viable substitue for Italian cooking. The former seem to "meatless" if that makes sense.

rien

The one dish where the Gaeta olive is indispensible, in my view, is puttanesca. I've had some luck finding them at the Harlem Ave stores because the turnover is pretty good, but it's always advisable to taste one before buying. Capers from Pantelleria, anchovies from Cetrara, Gaeta olives...my idea of heaven.

Choey wrote:Capers from Pantelleria, anchovies from Cetrara, Gaeta olives...my idea of heaven.

Where do you get these anchovies? Is there a preferred brand? I use Agostino Recca salt packed anchovies as my standard but if there are better options that are reasonably available, I'm ready to swap.

Thanks,

rien

Choey,

Can you help me out with a puttanesca recipe--I've tried to make it numerous times (without a recipe--how hard can it be, he said), and ended up with an overly salty dish. I think I'm using too many anchovies or olives.

Thanks,
John

john m wrote:Can you help me out with a puttanesca recipe--I've tried to make it numerous times (without a recipe--how hard can it be, he said), and ended up with an overly salty dish. I think I'm using too many anchovies or olives.

If you're using salt-packed anchovies and capers, you need to soak them both, change water, soak again. No added salt in sauce. Perhaps use a little less salt in the pasta water (but you can't reduce this too much unless you want tasteless pasta). That all works fine for me.

Have you soaked and drained the anchovies and capers?

Antonius

I rinsed, but did not soak. Thanks for the tip!

Some recipes I've come across call for soaking anchovies in milk rather than water. Is there a reasoning behind this? I assume it's not a traditional technique.

rien

The best anchovies I've tasted are from Cetara. The brand, Nettuno, is the only one I've found in Chicago (once at Fox and Obel), but you can order them from http://www.gustiamo.com, just be sure to hold on for sticker shock. Gustiamo also has great capers from Sicily, but also dearly priced. I always have a jar of Agostino Recca's in oil for when I only need a filet or two, and in a hurry. Among the brands commonly available, I can't say I have a strong preference. I tried the Dimon brand ones from Whole Foods a month or so ago (the whole ones in salt and oil; the white filets in oil and a little vinegar are best served drained, then sott' olio, marinated with a good olive oil, a little garlic, and parsley.). I'm not an advocate of soaking salted packed anchovies: rinse thoroughly under cold running water while you scale them, remove the dorsal fin, and spine. By the time you're done with that, they're not too salty by my taste.

For puttanesca I do the following:
1/4 C or so olive oil
2 cloves garlic, smashed
3-4 whole, salt packed anchovies, rinsed as above
1-2 Tbs Gaeta olives, pitted and roughly chopped
1-2 Tbs capers from Pantelleria, soaked in a couple changes of water for 30 minutes or so
1/3 C broadleaf parsley
pepperoncino, or dried chilis to taste
28 oz can San Marzano tomatoes, broken by hand.

Olive oil is an important part of this dish, so don't stint on it; and start the saute low to preserve the flavor of the oil (high heat changes the flavor). Saute the smashed garlic in oil over low heat until browned. Remove and discard cloves, take pan off heat and let cool a few minutes. Add anchovies and mash with fork, incorporating into the oil. Return pan to medium heat, toss in capers, olives, parsley, and pepperoncino for a couple minutes, add tomatoes and cook until the spaghetti (or linguine or vermicelli) is done (the tomatoes only need about 20 minutes). Drain the pasta (Martelli spaghettini works very nicely), toss for a minute or two in the sauce and serve with parsley and pepperoncino garnish. A bottle of Fiano di Avellino goes great with this, or pull out the stops and have a Taurasi.

Options: you can add canned tuna (mediterranean) at the very end for a little protein and more pronounced fish taste. I've also poached tuna steaks in the sauce for a secondo. This sauce also works great with cherry tomatoes or pomodorini a piennolo.

An observation or two: I only use salt packed capers and never use capers in brine because I just can't get them to taste like anything other than vinegary capers. The soaking is important or they will be miniature salt bombs. Thirty minutes usually does it, but taste one to be sure. Also, the Dimon anchovies mentioned above were pretty good, just be sure to check the expiration on the back. The ones I sought to buy yesterday were, uh, superannuated, shall we say.

I'll agree that one can forego soaking salt-packed anchovies but then one must make adjustments in a dish elsewhere. Salt-packed capers pretty much must be soaked. For Puttanesca, where the capers and anchovies and olives all bring a salt component, I find soaking little fish and capers necessary to keep things under control. But lets face it, when you use salt-packed foods, you can't expect to produce a low-salt dish, and a little saltiness (i.e., a little more than in the average dish) is part of the deal with this and other such recipes.

I've seen Molto Mario soak his anchovies in milk and it always makes me cringe (out of sympathy for the anchovy). I have no idea who does that or how widespread it is but I would be willing to believe that Molto learned it in Italy -- I hope so anyway. But among my relatives and friends, I haven't seen it done. I also don't recall seeing it described in any of my Italian cookbooks.

Antonius

I've been cutting out the filler lately, going straight for the tinned anchovies wrapped around capers and some Calabrese pepperoncini. Substitute beer for pasta, and you have a Moto-esque deconstruction.

If you haven't yet seen the tins hand-packed neatly with these tiny rolls, you're in for a new level of guilt about what others do for a living.

Choey wrote:For puttanesca I do the following:

28 oz can San Marzano tomatoes, broken by hand.

I always get confused when a can of tomatoes is called for. Do you drain them or do you use the juice in which they are packed?

Definitely want to try this soon! Thanks!

Bill/SFNM

Choey wrote:Also, the Dimon anchovies mentioned above were pretty good, just be sure to check the expiration on the back. The ones I sought to buy yesterday were, uh, superannuated, shall we say.

Choey,

Maybe they should have a premium attached like these aged sardines I bought at Hediard in Paris.



Enjoy,
Gary

Antonius wrote:

john m wrote:Can you help me out with a puttanesca recipe--I've tried to make it numerous times (without a recipe--how hard can it be, he said), and ended up with an overly salty dish. I think I'm using too many anchovies or olives.

If you're using salt-packed anchovies and capers, you need to soak them both, change water, soak again. No added salt in sauce. Perhaps use a little less salt in the pasta water (but you can't reduce this too much unless you want tasteless pasta). That all works fine for me.

Have you soaked and drained the anchovies and capers?

Antonius

Do you rinse after you have boned the anchovies?

When I buy whole, salted anchovies (yes I know, should one ever NOT buy whole salted anchovies?), I run cold water and rinse the heavy salt coating off. Then I filet them and then I put them in a small crock with olive oil. Granted, I wash them off good so to speak, but I never soak them hence. I never rinse or soak canned anchovies.

Rob

HI,

Every once in a great while, I purchase an approximately one pound jar of salted anchovies in olive oil. Whenever I need them, I just fish them out of the jar and directly into pan. Sure there is salt clinging to it, so I adjust the salt to taste later without much fuss. Am I using an inferior product or spending too much money doing what I do?

In addition, is the soaking of the anchovy really necessary each and every time if you are putting it in a dish with lots of liquid? I find thin dried items rehydrate very fast. If I am rehydrating mushrooms for a fast cooked item, then I do thoroughly rehydrate before cooking.

Bill, I don't drain them for most sauces. The fast (sciue' sciue') sauces (the ones that cook in the time the pasta boils) probably should be a little thin (it is marinara, after all). A ragu will be reduced during the longer cooking time.

Rob, with salted anchovies, I do the rinsing, deboning and removal of tail and fins under cold running water. After that, the proof of the anchovy is in the eating. If I can't eat one right there at the sink, I probably shouldn't be cooking with it.

Gary, my reverence for you is undisguised. You've started me thinking about sardines for lunch. Though my original plan, a pepper and egg sandwich, requires no apology.

JeffB, I haven't tried the caper-wrapped-in-anchovy preparations in a long time because they didn't use best-in-class ingredients. But since I haven't made any major strides recently in improving my commitment to sloth and indolence, I am going to give them another try. Add on several Three Floyds' Dreadnaught IPAs and the meal is indeed complete.

Regarding Anchovies:
To my mind, there are various factors that determine precisely what one does with almost every basic ingredient in Italian cooking. In the case of anchovies, the simple cutting-and-rinsing preparation as described by Choey is perfect for many applications where one has the opportunity to adjust for the overall salinity of a dish at a later stage. But in some cases, I think that may be insufficient and soaking is warranted. As always, in part this has to do with personal tastes and tolerances for salt, but it also has to do with the size, age and quality of the salted anchovies. For example, in general, the older they are (i.e., the longer they have been packed in the salt), the saltier they will be. Size of the fish itself is also a factor.

For me, I find the combination of unsoaked anchovies with the other ingredients for puttanesca runs a high risk of producing an excessively salty dish, at least to my taste. I say this in part from a bad experience some years back when I prepared the dish without soaking the anchovies for a dinner made for invited company. The final result was edible but too salty and I had to be restrained from disembowling myself in the kitchen out of shame.

Know your pantry ingredients well. Salted capers, like anchovies, vary in how intensely salty they are.

VI - If you are going to soak them, here are some ways to proceed:
Rinse them, cut and clean them, soak them in water for anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes OR soak them for 10 minutes, change the water and soak them again.


Regarding Pomodori pelati:
As with anchovies and as Choey indicates, one treats the liquid differently for different uses. If I don't use all the liquid, I not only save it but also rinse out the can with a little bit of water to get all the tomato possible.

Antonius

As an addendum to the discussion of anchovies and puttanesca, I thought I should mention the following. About a week ago I visited one of my absolute favourite stores in Chicago, Athens Market, and there got some beautifully fresh, firm and fleshy Kalamata olives as well as some of the small green ones from the tub up on the counter along the south wall. These little green olives were really delicious

Also, Caputo's has "loose" sarde.

Almost eight years old and still a very interesting thread ...

And still angel hair pasta should be outlawed for the crime of getting gooped up in sauce and becoming unappetizing...some things never change.