Hey Pal, What's on That Burger?
Hey Pal, What's on That Burger?
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Hey Pal, What's on That Burger?
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Post #1 - November 2nd, 2008, 6:57 amI had a decidedly unsatisfying burger experience last night at Charcoal Delights. This often happens to me at fast-food style burger places and I finally figured out why. I'm a hot dog man. Given the choice, over 90% of the time I'll order a hot dog rather than a burger. It's been this way my entire life. I've long ago perfected the list of toppings I like on my dogs and always order mine the same way. When it comes to burgers, not so much. I've never developed a standard list of toppings that I crave for my burgers, so usually resort to ordering a burger with everything, hold the onions (I can't eat hot dog stand raw onions). Since evidently burger stands themselves do not have a standard list of toppings, this amounts to more or less spinning the wheel almost every time I order a burger (admittedly, not all that often). Lots of times, I get the burger and really don't like all the stuff they put on it and wish I had been a bit more specific on what I asked for. Last night in particular was extremely heinous, with the addition of what seemed to be a double helping of relish that really clashed with the flavor. I couldn't even finish the burger. At least I've finally figured out to add no relish to my request for no onions.
I need to refine my burger ordering technique. This leads me to my question, What do you consider to be "normal" toppings for a 30's style burger?
Charcoal Delights
3139 W. Foster Avenue
Chicago, IL 60625
Phone (773) 583-0056Steve Z.
“Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
― Ludwig van Beethoven
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Post #2 - November 2nd, 2008, 8:14 amTo me, a classic thin patty 30s style burger has only ketchup, mustard, sliced pickle, onion (raw or grilled) and, if desired, cheese. Minimalist and perfect, like a Chicago dog with its mustard, relish and onion; all these ingredients should be thin and bordering on sparse. If anything can drip out of the side, you have too much of it.
But a lot of "Greek" places, whether or not actually run by Greeks, put a big ass wedge of iceberg lettuce, a couple of tablespoons of mayo, a thick slice of styromato, an onion slice suitable for onion rings, 1/4" thick pickle slices, and they use too puffy a bun. Everything is overdone and you get a gloppy overkill of a sandwich which may be tasty while the patty's still hot, if it's grilled well, but which doesn't have the balance and unity of temperature which a great 30s style burger has. Basically, you're eating your burger through a salad.
I use defensive ordering techniques in such places-- no, I don't order an extra chicken crack for Daane, I mean I ask what "everything" is, and then I adjust downward from there to, usually, KMOP. The basic material at Charcoal Delights is good, if you keep them from overdoing it.
I usually don't like relish, I think it just adds to the glop on gloppy burgers, but for some reason it seems right at Muskie's, to name one.Watch Sky Full of Bacon, the Chicago food HD podcast!
New episode: Soil, Corn, Cows and Cheese
Watch the Reader's James Beard Award-winning Key Ingredient here.
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Post #3 - November 2nd, 2008, 8:52 amI agree almost completely with Mike G if you are going for the 30's style burger.Mike G wrote:To me, a classic thin patty 30s style burger has only ketchup, mustard, sliced pickle, onion (raw or grilled) and, if desired, cheese.
Except no Ketchup for me. Two reasons for that:
1. IMHO ketchup doesn't go with meat, it belongs with fries.
2. The more condiments the more mess, and I am not a fan of having to dodge globs of ketchup coming out of the back of the bun.
I don't like iceberg lettuce on anything, and I especially hate shredded iceberg lettuce. It is messy and if you wait more than a minute to eat your burger it gets cooked by the patty.
Tomatoes I can go either way on, but only if the tomato is fresh.
No relish, No mayo, No Mushrooms (more mess)
In the end, KISS principal prevails for me. Choose the burger direction you want to go with (30's style, BBQ, Mushroom/Swiss, etc) choose a few toppings, one condiment, and eat.
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Post #4 - November 2nd, 2008, 9:09 amI suspect the strictly canonical 30s style burger doesn't have ketchup, but I grew up with it so it seems natural to me. (So why not ketchup on dogs? I grew up with that, too, but Chicago dogs are almost a different beast from the mild, sweet Oscar Mayer or Cudahy dogs of my childhood.)Watch Sky Full of Bacon, the Chicago food HD podcast!
New episode: Soil, Corn, Cows and Cheese
Watch the Reader's James Beard Award-winning Key Ingredient here.
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Post #5 - November 2nd, 2008, 9:09 amI'm with gtomoras on sauces; I often ask for mayo on the side for fear I'll get more mayo than meat.
I have two preferences, depending on the burger. For thin, crispy burgers I like grilled onion and pickle - mustard works with this, but I'd rather put it on myself. Self-applied mayo is OK, too. For burgers that can be cooked rare, I like (after checking to see what they look like) tomato, lettuce and onion with self-applied mayo. This often means opening up the burger and removing excesses of lettuce and onion.
Generally, for expediency, I order with "everything" and then remove a lot of stuff, but that's not going to help you with things like sauces and relish.
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Post #6 - November 2nd, 2008, 9:52 amsteve,
My standard order for a burger at places like Charcoal Oven is as follows: cheese, raw onion (if it's sliced round--not diced), sliced pickle (definitely not a spear or relish), yellow mustard. I'm not a grilled onion burger guy.
Tomato has an over 90% failure rate, so I just avoid it. On thicker burgers, I don't mind a little mayo, but I feel like it overtakes a thin patty.
If I'm feeling a little sassy, sliced jalapenos are something I might add: pickled or fresh.
I agree with gtomaras that ketchup does not belong on meat. (Although I'm someone who doesn't think it belongs on potatoes either).
Best,
Michael
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Post #7 - November 2nd, 2008, 10:31 amFirst, stevez, let me thank you for raising this question. Only on LTH forum. . .
I've given this matter a considerable amount of thought over the years. I had a bad early experience (in 3rd grade) with a "California Burger" at a local drug store. So I have avoided mayo, lettuce and tomato as toppings ever since.
What it comes down to is to enhance, rather than disguise, the taste of the meat. Frankly, this depends a great deal on the quality of the meat itself. I feel that this is the crux of your preference for the hot dog. Due to its stronger flavor, a good hot dog can't be eclipsed by toppings, even in Chicago. (Though ketchup is just antithetical to the harmony of the whole.)
Nevertheless, for me, the perfect toppings are: American cheese, 3 thin slices of cheap industrial dill pickle (no half sours or garlicky spears, please), 1-2 t. ketchup, 1/2 t. mustard (ideally applied by me. The ratio of mustard to ketchup is especially critical.) Onions are a bit of a roll of the dice. I often like them, but they can also throw off the balance. Quite often, I order them, but take most of the pieces off. I wonder why onion slices are better than chopped onion-perhaps eatchicago can shed some light on this, since he specified slices (rings) in his post upthread.
I've found that the test of the correct balance of toppings permits one to appreciate the browned edge of the bun, as well as the other, more forward elements of the burger. Also, the taste of the toppings should recede after each bite, giving way to the appreciation of the meat juices just prior to swallowing.Man : I can't understand how a poet like you can eat that stuff.
T. S. Eliot: Ah, but you're not a poet.
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Post #8 - November 2nd, 2008, 10:55 amI wonder why onion slices are better than chopped onion-perhaps eatchicago can shed some light on this, since he specified slices (rings) in his post upthread.
Rings are almost certainly freshly-sliced, diced onions are often bagged or even reconstituted (as at McDonald's in the case of the teeny little ones on the regular hamburgers, though not the larger ones on the Quarter Pounder).Watch Sky Full of Bacon, the Chicago food HD podcast!
New episode: Soil, Corn, Cows and Cheese
Watch the Reader's James Beard Award-winning Key Ingredient here.
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Post #9 - November 2nd, 2008, 11:06 amMike G wrote:I wonder why onion slices are better than chopped onion-perhaps eatchicago can shed some light on this, since he specified slices (rings) in his post upthread.
Rings are almost certainly freshly-sliced, diced onions are often bagged or even reconstituted (as at McDonald's in the case of the teeny little ones on the regular hamburgers, though not the larger ones on the Quarter Pounder).
Well, no that's not really my problem. Often times they use the same diced onion they'd put on a hot dog, which I don't usually find to be bagged or reconstituted.
I want an onion slice for a couple reasons. Primarily, I don't want it to fall out. Diced onion winds up falling out, a slice stays put. Secondly, I like the "bite" of flavor that you get from a heartier amount of onion in each bite. It stands up well to the burger--little diced pieces are just too weak.
Best,
Michael
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Post #10 - November 2nd, 2008, 11:58 amMike G wrote:diced onions are often bagged or even reconstituted.
Hence my avoidance of onions at most fast food style places. I don't even get them on my dogs.Steve Z.
“Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
― Ludwig van Beethoven
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Post #11 - November 2nd, 2008, 12:03 pmWow, a lot of condiment variances from respectable people...
For me, much like the different batting stances of Hall of Famer Rod Carew for different pitchers, I visualize varying toppings depending on the burger.
Quarter Pounder--ketchup, rings of onion
Wendy's Classic--ketchup, onion, lettuce, mayo
'Coffee Shop' (1970's Gold Coin-style w/toasted bun) Burger--ketchup, dill slices, easy American cheese
Poochie's Char-Burger--ketchup, easy grilled onions
..and I could go on & on, but you get the idea.
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Post #12 - November 2nd, 2008, 2:07 pmI'm in the KMOP group as well. I almost always get the burger with cheese. The onions for me depend on how they are prepared. I like a slice of onion vs diced and if I can't get a fresh slice, sometimes I'll go for the grilled onions.One Mint Julep was the cause of it all.
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Post #13 - November 2nd, 2008, 3:39 pmi never understood relish on a burger.http://www.wienerandstillchampion.com/
Twitter: Wasc
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How fast can you eat a 3lb burger?
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Post #14 - November 2nd, 2008, 3:49 pmgp60004 wrote:i never understood relish on a burger.
I agree with that statement with one exception...The Supercheesie. Somehow, Superdawg's combination of griddled beef patty, soft bun, grilled and raw onions, mustard,and bright green pickle relish works for me.
I can't comprehend adding sweet relish to a Top Notch burger, or one at Diner Grill.
"Bass Trombone is the Lead Trumpet of the Deep."
Rick Hammett
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Post #15 - November 3rd, 2008, 4:11 amEvil Ronnie wrote:gp60004 wrote:i never understood relish on a burger.
I agree with that statement with one exception...The Supercheesie. Somehow, Superdawg's combination of griddled beef patty, soft bun, grilled and raw onions, mustard,and bright green pickle relish works for me.
Just to throw a monkeywrench into the works, I recently re-discovered a sweet relish burger condiment that appears to be a New England thing. It is sweet (or hot and sweet) red pepper hamburger relish. I don't like sweet pickle relish on a burger but this red pepper stuff works for me. I might consider its addition to create a cousin of the 30's burger, rather than a sibling. (By the same token, I consider the burgers at Kuma's to be hamburger-inspired creations, rather than hamburgers as such.)Man : I can't understand how a poet like you can eat that stuff.
T. S. Eliot: Ah, but you're not a poet.
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Post #16 - November 3rd, 2008, 8:56 amThe Poochie and Paradise Pup char cheddar burger with well done grilled onions and ketchup wags my tail. However, Kewpee's in Racine, WI (5 minutes from my house) and the Spot Drive-In and the Big Star Drive-In in Kenosha are fine examples of old style burgers garnished with only ketchup, mustard, onions, and pickle chips. These pickles are known as a hamburger pickle, which are much different from the kosher dills used on Chicago stlye hot dogs. Big Star tops their cheeseburgers with melted Velveeta (Cheese Whiz), a nostalgic taste from my childhood, since my mom always topped her burgers with melted Velveeta made on the flat grill of our Universal gas range.Last edited by chicagostyledog on November 3rd, 2008, 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.Mark A Reitman, PhD
Professor of Hot Dogs
Hot Dog University/Vienna Beef
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Post #17 - November 3rd, 2008, 10:31 amI've often wondered this, but in the end i've come to the conclusion that it depends on where you are and its best to let the patty/flavor of the beef dictate the topping.
Generally i avoid ketchup on a burger and like mustard+mayo - however, my favortie burger is at Paradise Pup which has ketchup and mayo (and no mustard). In this case the ketchup's sweetness actually works well with the heavy char beef flavor and the cuts the bite of the Merkt's cheddar. I'll note that the commendable chain burger at Portillos is also a ketchup-mayo variety.
At Gibson's steak house, i top the burger with onion and pickle and then spread on a smear of horseradish cream sauce. It's best to let the beef speak for itself and not to complicate the burger there.
On the other hand, at Culvers the mustard/mayo topping seems to work well with the thin old-fashioned patties. i"m not sure you should ever oversauce a thin patty, because it detracts from the beef. Ketchup in such burgers may imbalance the taste.
NOw if someone could tell me what to top the burger at Rosebud Steakhouse with, i'd be curious to know.
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Post #18 - November 3rd, 2008, 11:04 amif you have natural casing vienna and a steamed bun its hard to go wrong with a hot dog. all you really need is mustard and onions, though i like mine with relish and a tomato too from time to time. that said, i do like the burgers at charcoal delights; they really do cook it over the coals. i think the only thing they don't do over coals are the gyros, which are decent in their own right.
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Post #19 - November 3rd, 2008, 11:39 amMy ideal choice is: BACON, cheese of one type or another (depending on mood), field greens (or other non-iceberg greens), diced grilled onion, light raw rings of onion, Dijon (usually) or yellow mustard, very light mayo, and a dash of hot sauce. Pretzel or sturdy egg bun preferred... something that won't get soggy easily.
Bacon to me is the ultimate burger compliment. It does not interfere with the ground beef but adds smokiness that ground meat can not really acquire on its own. True, I don't always have bacon as there isn't much out there that is worse for you than a bacon-cheese-burger, but I'm not really happy unless there is bacon.
When it comes to onion, I think you have to have mix of raw and grilled... it just provides a depth of flavor that goes so well with ground beef. Most other ground meat based dishes have some form of onion in them or in the sauce and I think there is good reason for this.
I'm not sure when I started putting mayo on burgers. I certainly didn't grow up on it. I grew up on ketchup but my tastes changed. I agree that many places put way too much on and it kills it. I just like a light coat. Lately I've used Kewpie mayo and I find it works quite well as a little goes much farther then Helman's with a small amount. El Yucateo seems to pick up a burger better than any other sauce I know of but once in a while I use a bit of Srirracha.
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Post #20 - November 3rd, 2008, 8:43 pmjnm123 wrote:Wow, a lot of condiment variances from respectable people...
For me, much like the different batting stances of Hall of Famer Rod Carew for different pitchers, I visualize varying toppings depending on the burger.
Quarter Pounder--ketchup, rings of onion
For me, on the rare archaic instances nowadays of Mcd's consumption, it is the ketchup that I delete. It is already too sweet.
Wendy's Classic--ketchup, onion, lettuce, mayo
Mayo seems incomprehensible to me as a chosen add-on for almost anything. On a burger, I am already over budget on fat. On a fast food product, I am concerned about spoilage from bad mayo---2 times in the deep dark past I got sick from a fast-food place, not quite sick enough from it being e.coli, but likely the bad mayo. It was the place that used to promote its mixing of ketchup and mayo as "the best sauce". Never got sick from a Wendy's, tho there, I'd stick to the dollar nuggets.
'Coffee Shop' (1970's Gold Coin-style w/toasted bun) Burger--ketchup, dill slices, easy American cheese
Yeah, for this type of thing, I go with the default as it comes, w/the mustard. At the "greek" style burger plus salad, I generally delete lettuce, and if possible, add bbq sauce in lui of k/mu. Lots of greek places have a great 'red' sauce.
Poochie's Char-Burger--ketchup, easy grilled onions
Hot dog stand burger, I do precisely the same as a hot-dog. Sometimes, I just get a hot dog, a plain burger, and combine forces on the burger bun. Kuma's has the all-star take on this.
White Castle, no add-ons, tho I do like those packets of Dusseldorf mustard. But the best mustard in the world is something you can find in Cleveland, Ohio only---Stadium Mustard. It is a brown mustard that isn't a deli-spicy version, nor a poupony sort of thing. I had brought some special back to Chicago and slathered some on a homemade Merkt's burger one summer night, and my GF [curious cat that she was] took one bite and was instantly cured of her veganism.
..and I could go on & on, but you get the idea.
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Post #21 - December 9th, 2009, 3:36 pmPatty Burger
http://www.pattyburger.com
72 East Adams Street
Chicago, IL 60603-6108
(312) 987-0900
me: I would like a cheeseburger with mustard, pickles and egg.
her: we can't add an egg
me: your sign says extras: bacon, avacado, egg $.99
her: there isn't anything on the register that I can do it.
me: you have a burger with bacon and egg on it, hold the bacon and add the pickles.
her: can't do that
entire cooking staff watching and listening: Not one person says, "no problem"
me: bye (still fuming two hours later, must get to LTH forum)
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Post #22 - December 9th, 2009, 3:54 pmDo yourself a favor and walk a few blocks in either direction to Epic (South) or Marc (North at Macy's food court). Not only can they figure out the egg thing, they make a better product.
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Post #23 - December 9th, 2009, 4:04 pmI would have if it wasn't directly next to my building and 32 degrees and blowing wet snow today. It was just one of those times I said yes to appease a buddy.
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Post #24 - December 9th, 2009, 4:18 pmnicinchic wrote:Patty Burger
http://www.pattyburger.com
72 East Adams Street
Chicago, IL 60603-6108
(312) 987-0900
me: I would like a cheeseburger with mustard, pickles and egg.
her: we can't add an egg
me: your sign says extras: bacon, avacado, egg $.99
her: there isn't anything on the register that I can do it.
me: you have a burger with bacon and egg on it, hold the bacon and add the pickles.
her: can't do that
entire cooking staff watching and listening: Not one person says, "no problem"
me: bye (still fuming two hours later, must get to LTH forum)
Dang man thats a twisted funny story! LOL!!
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Post #25 - December 10th, 2009, 11:22 amAfter I wrote my little rant, I decided that in all fairness I needed to let Patty Burger know what happened. Here is the response:
This is in response to your note you submitted to the Patty Burger website. First off, thank you for bringing your experience to our attention. With your note we are able to take appropriate action to fix the problem. I am sorry for your bad experience, the option is there to add egg to any sandwich so there should of been no problem ordering your burger.
I would like to offer you your next lunch on us for your inconvenience.
So, I will give it a shot next week, I'm not sure I'll use the free lunch, as I certainly don't need any more attention toward me, but I do appreciate the gesture, and I will write them back if I have a good experience.
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Post #26 - December 10th, 2009, 1:00 pmnicinchic wrote:I would like to offer you your next lunch on us for your inconvenience.
So, I will give it a shot next week, I'm not sure I'll use the free lunch, as I certainly don't need any more attention toward me, but I do appreciate the gesture, and I will write them back if I have a good experience.
Good follow up! You better use the free lunch on us deal....it shows they want to give you a second chance and win ya over.
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Post #27 - December 10th, 2009, 2:02 pmIt has to be done.
Five Easy Pieces:
Bobby wants plain toast, which isn't on the menu]
Bobby: I'd like an omelet, plain, and a chicken salad sandwich on wheat toast, no mayonnaise, no butter, no lettuce. And a cup of coffee.
Waitress: A #2, chicken salad sand. Hold the butter, the lettuce, the mayonnaise, and a cup of coffee. Anything else?
Bobby: Yeah, now all you have to do is hold the chicken, bring me the toast, give me a check for the chicken salad sandwich, and you haven't broken any rules.
Waitress: You want me to hold the chicken, huh?
Bobby: I want you to hold it between your knees.
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Post #28 - December 10th, 2009, 2:17 pmstevez wrote:This leads me to my question, What do you consider to be "normal" toppings for a 30's style burger?
I can't find a reference but I remember watching an interview with some guy that recently wrote a burger book and he said that typical toppings varied by geography. I want to say I remember him noting that here in the Midwest, the traditional toppings were mustard, onion and pickle, while in New England, they generally preferred ketchup. Like I said, I can't find it and my google searches led me to a number of books on burgers so I can't pinpoint this but like most random food "facts" or comments, this stuck in my head.
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Post #29 - December 11th, 2009, 12:27 pmSCUBAchef wrote:It has to be done.
Five Easy Pieces:
Bobby wants plain toast, which isn't on the menu]
Bobby: I'd like an omelet, plain, and a chicken salad sandwich on wheat toast, no mayonnaise, no butter, no lettuce. And a cup of coffee.
Waitress: A #2, chicken salad sand. Hold the butter, the lettuce, the mayonnaise, and a cup of coffee. Anything else?
Bobby: Yeah, now all you have to do is hold the chicken, bring me the toast, give me a check for the chicken salad sandwich, and you haven't broken any rules.
Waitress: You want me to hold the chicken, huh?
Bobby: I want you to hold it between your knees.
Whenever I see/hear this extract quoted (after which i cheered myself when I first saw it), I'm always prompted to cite Studs Terkel's response as a counterweight (from his memoir, Talking to Myself:
"Though it is several years since I've seen the film 'Five Easy Pieces,' my indignation is lasting. Remember that scene, oh God, in which the waitress is the virago? She refuses to serve Jack Nicholson and his companions toast or something. 'It's not on the menu,' the cold bitch says. Talk about a cheap shot. Nicholson, righteous, humiliates the waitress. The audience, our eighteen-to-thirty market, applauds and cheers. The young ----s.
"What are we told of this nasty woman? Was it afternoon? Was it near the end of a long day for her? And how were her varicose veins? And what happened behind those swinging doors? Did she and the chef have words? And why was she waiting on tables? Was her old man sick? Did he run off? Was her daughter in trouble? And how many Bufferins did she just take? Perhaps she was indeed a Nogood Girlo. We'll never know. We knew more than we needed to know about Nicholson; nothing about her. Yet there she was, Medusa. Why didn't I have to guts to stand up in that darkened house and holler, "You f------ young solipsists!""The fork with two prongs is in use in northern Europe. In England, they’re armed with a steel trident, a fork with three prongs. In France we have a fork with four prongs; it’s the height of civilization." Eugene Briffault (1846)
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Post #30 - December 11th, 2009, 1:46 pmThat Studs was a cranky old fart.
