isn't it a bit odd to continue to certify a restaurant as a GNR when it's been closed for health reasons?

No.

It's a bit odd to think the two have anything to do with each other, it seems to me. Do we take Nobel Prizes away when the scientist turns out to have been a sexist dick, like James Watson? Do we take Oscars away when Sally Field follows Norma Rae with Beyond the Poseidon Adventure? Okay, maybe we should...

I take it for granted that restaurants in a brand-spanking new mall in the burbs will always be cleaner than anywhere in Chinatown. Which puts me in mind of the old joke ending "In the morning, I'll be sober but you'll still be ugly." In the morning (one of these days), Sun Wah will be open, but Big Bowl at Elk Glen Oaks Mall will still be....

Isn't the counter argument that a nobel prize winner turning out to be an ass doesn't have anything to do with the science, whereas the safety of a restaurant has everything to do with its food?

jaybo wrote:For the most part, the posts in this thread are rationalizations and excuses. The bottom line is, the restaurant violated code and is now paying the price. I'm all for closing the restaurant and placing the green sign in the door if the result is a more sanitary establishment. Any restaurant that fails these standards should suffer some embarrassment and loss of business. It is unacceptable, period.

Agree completely.

When you get a license, you agree to follow the local standards and regulations of the city you operate in. If not, your health inspections do not go very well.

I had planned to eat there tomorrow; however, i will make other plans

What the hell does safety have to do with whether it's any good, though?

I learned that when I had to scrub the quarter pounder grill at McD's back to gleaming steel every night, but my favorite burger place had a grill of a rich mahogany brown.

This thread astounds me.

Either the closure bothers you, and you don't go, or it doesn't, and you do.

Personally speaking, if I'd eliminated all places that were less than gleaming or had health department issues at some point, I'd have missed out on at least 75% of my greatest food experiences. That doesn't make me right. It's just that it's a risk I'm willing to take. I understand and respect that there are those who feel otherwise. It's the manufactured indignance that I don't get. If they have a roach problem that they're struggling in earnest to resolve, you may choose to avoid the place, but that's hardly reprehensible. Or maybe they're releasing them into the cooler by the crateful, and yeah, that'd be something to get offended about. But the bottom line is that the official information is in the public record for all to see, and anything beyond that is pure speculation.

As such, either the closure bothers you, and you don't go, or it doesn't, and you do. What more is there to say?

(For the record, I haven't made it to Sun Wah yet... but this certainly won't keep me away.)

From the GNR Please read before posting post:


The LTHForum.com Great Neighborhood Restaurants Program (GNR)

The Great Neighborhood Restaurants Program is designed to recognize Chicagoland restaurants that the LTHForum community considers “great” – in other words, places that provide a food experience that is distinctly “better than the rest.” Some of these restaurants might be hole-in-the-wall joints; others might be fancy-pants culinary temples. If the place provides a great food experience, any LTHForum community member can nominate it. Restaurants that are approved will receive a window sign suitable for display with the LTHForum.com logo and the current year.

As I read this definition it is important to remember that what makes a place "great" is a purely subjective thing. Personally, I have eaten things that I will never forget in countries where there are no food safety standards at all. That does not make poor food practices of any sort acceptable here, but I have worked in restaurants where I would have no problem eating off of any surface in the kitchen, including the floor, where I have seen health code violations that would be considered worth of the suspension of a license.

Everyone must make their own decision if it is worth it to eat in a place that has had a code violation in the past. I can only speak for myself, but I have eaten plenty of meals in hospitals and have yet to have a "great" experience at any of them. I will eat an Sun Wah when they reopen. In fact, it might be a good idea to schedule another LTH dinner there for when they reopen.

I would just like to ask that everyone remember that this is a place to state your opinion not to force that opinion on others. Personally, I am not a huge fan of asparagus; I know that may be a minority opinion but it is mine nonetheless. Therefore, I do not choose to order it when I go out. Similarly, some of you may choose not to go to Sun Wah, but that is your opinion.

You know, I'm beginning to think we really are "just an overly sensitive coterie of effete and self-important snooty-pants dilettantes?"

Well, I'm a clean freak and above that, I have a cleaning person once a month just in case there's something I didn't clean. And yet, I had cockroaches at my old condo. I learned that it doesn't necessarily matter how clean you are. Anyone can get them.

I have good friends who I was out to dinner with tonight. They live in a town home and are clean freaks like me. They just got rid of cockroaches last week.

If you have some unclean neighbors, you'll get the cockroaches when those neighbors get rid of them . . . even if you're clean. If you bring one of those boxes home from the wholesale club (the ones you put all your junk in to make getting home easier) and neglect to notice the one cockroach on the box, you'll get them.

So before anyone automatically presumes that Sun Wah was less than perfectly clean and sanitary, make sure you know the facts. I once thought that you couldn't get cockroaches if you lived in the perfectly clean show home . . . I now know that my former belief is not true!

BR wrote:Well, I'm a clean freak and above that, I have a cleaning person once a month just in case there's something I didn't clean. And yet, I had cockroaches at my old condo. I learned that it doesn't necessarily matter how clean you are. Anyone can get them.

I'm glad you posted this, BR. I was beginning to thing that LTH was populated by only by Country Mice. As a former City Mouse (longtime Manhattan resident) and fastidious housekeeper, I can attest to the truth of your statement. I am no authority, but it was commonly accepted in Manhattan that roaches were present in almost all city buildings-though someone once told me that they can't live above the 9th floor-but that's probably an urban legend. Roaches are not just interested in food--they will eat anything, and seem especially fond of cardboard. My West 22nd Street roaches loved my answering machine. Yum!

I'm not the first to suggest this, but -let's look at this reasonably, folks. It would be too bad if some potential diners were misled into thinking that Sun Wah does not merit their attention.

BR wrote:I once thought that you couldn't get cockroaches if you lived in the perfectly clean show home . . . I now know that my former belief is not true!

Anyone can get them. However, a health department closure for inadequate pest management means just that: A food establishment did not adequately deal with its pest problem, and the inspectors found an unacceptable level of infestation.

The issue in that case is not that the restaurant had roaches (or flies or rats or mice or whatever it is). The issue is that it had pests and management didn't call for the exterminators when they should have.

If you're serving food to the public, the city doesn't want you to wait till there's a bad problem and then get rid of it. You're supposed to treat it before it becomes a bad problem.

Appropriate pest management means being proactive. Many restaurants, therefore, have exterminators in on a regular schedule, whether they're needed or not.

Based on what some of you are saying about the ever present cockroach, I do have to ask a couple of questions question....

If the vast majority of places are roach free, why not all of them?

How come the City inspectors clo not close every restaurant it inspects?

Do roach infestations, bad enough to close a place, happen overnight, or does it take a while?

If cockroaches are so benign, and harmless, why inspect for them?

Just askin.

P.S. 11th LTH commandment, thou shalt not badmouth a sacred cow.

P.S. 11th LTH commandment, thou shalt not badmouth a sacred cow.

He said, on page 2 of the thread doing just that.

Oh, for crying out loud! If the "11th commandment" you reference were true, this thread would be two posts long instead of two pages.

However, and I think many of the supporters may be with me in this, this issue does go to the heart of why I post on LTH: I think of food as an adventure. I am not looking for super-sanitized, flavor-free food; I want real food that's cooked by real people - I eat because it's the only way I can travel to other cultures and maybe even other times. I am insulted that this equates me as being someone who eats in "dirty" places. I have never been made sick by eating in the places that many people shun - and I've eaten a lot better than they have.

Furthermore, LAZ, the interpretation of the code is up to the individual inspector - and, usually, that means the presence of one insect, whether it had just arrived or had been there for a while, will fail the restaurant on that front. This is not implying any foul play, just that many inspectors are sticklers on this subject, and your broader interpretation isn't necessarily the one that's being followed.

If the question is "Could Sun Wah have been even more vigilant and prevented this closure?"... I suspect that the answer may be yes. I suspect that it's the very question they are asking themselves now. No restaurant is perfect - even our favorites have what we might consider flaws. Restaurants are like potential mates - there's someone for everyone. I can be overly sarcastic and too self-absorbed sometimes. More than one woman decided that was too much for them. Thankfully, my wife loves me anyway. Some people love Sun Wah despite what they might consider a minor flaw. Other people consider that flaw major, and can check the Metromix star ratings (the e-Harmony of restaurant matches) for a new Chinese favorite.

Dmnkly wrote:As such, either the closure bothers you, and you don't go, or it doesn't, and you do. What more is there to say?

True enough, but way upthread, LAZ asked the question, "Does this bother you?" People are answering that question. If the question was relevant to the thread, the answers (both yea and nay) certainly must be.

jimmya wrote:P.S. 11th LTH commandment, thou shalt not badmouth a sacred cow.

Can we put this asinine and completely unfounded line of snark to bed? (Not just you, Jimmy.)

A hypothetical involving rats received less of a response than this thread:
What do you say when you see a rat?

A roach found in a sandwich at a place universally loathed by LTH received a largely nonchalant response:
Roach in Hecky's of Chicago Sandwich, Restaurant Shutdown

Quite a few expressed no reservations about returning to restaurants that had actually poisoned them:
Would you return to a restaurant that poisoned you?

And we've even cracked jokes about health department troubles being the very reason a place might be good:
lovin' it?

Or, look at the converse and forget about health department problems altogether. The main thread for my GNR nomination is now nearly 50% comprised (that be 6-7 PAGES) of criticisms of the reservations system.

Point being, anybody who thinks "sacred cows" aren't regularly criticized and that this nonchalance when it comes to health department issues is selectively applied either hasn't been paying attention, or is simply looking for an excuse to be a smartass (I won't presume which).

Many of us simply prefer to focus on the food.

Novel concept.

riddlemay wrote:

Dmnkly wrote:As such, either the closure bothers you, and you don't go, or it doesn't, and you do. What more is there to say?

True enough, but way upthread, LAZ asked the question, "Does this bother you?" People are answering that question. If the question was relevant to the thread, the answers (both yea and nay) certainly must be.

As mentioned, it's not the answer that I find ridiculous. It's the accompanying speculation and manufactured indignance.

Well then: in the case of a restaurant that's run by a family who cares about their restaurant, who I feel like I know, whose clean kitchen I've seen, whose food takes me to a country I'll likely never travel to, that serves food I find to be amazing and delectable that I can't prepare at home - no, it doesn't bother me.

In the case of the chain restaurant that for some reason didn't get shut down on the same issue, but from whose more lax suburban inspector I heard how bad it was even though he didn't cite them - whose menu I do better at home than they can and I'm looking for a reason not to go anyway (and from the inspector's description I bet the employees could care less) - you betcha, I've never darkened their door again.

While several people have commented on the 11th commandment, no one, who defends Sun Wah, has responded to my simple questions.

They tell us why they are willing to risk their health, but not why the vast vast majority of restaurants pass inspection, considering the roach is omnipresent, and a few do not. And why do they inspect for roaches and other insects.

jimmya wrote:While several people have commented on the 11th commandment, no one, who defends Sun Wah, has responded to my simple questions.

They tell us why they are willing to risk their health, but not why the vast vast majority of restaurants pass inspection, considering the roach is omnipresent, and a few do not. And why do they inspect for roaches and other insects.

1. You posted those questions less than an hour ago. People are still sleeping.
2. The questions are not all that interesting

3. If you read the thread, you'll find that those questions have been addressed.

OK, obviously I needed to shut up four or five posts ago. I'm out.

"Because cockroaches tend to frequent garbage cans, sewers and other disease-laden locations, germs attach to their body that can transfer to food contact surfaces (utensils, plates) during the normal course of roach activities. These include disease-causing bacteria: Salmonella, Shigella, E. coli, Streptococcus (pneumonia), several helminths (hookwoorm, pinworms, tapeworms), and even viruses (poliomyelitis). If this hasn't convinced you they are bad to live with, cockroaches also produce a powerful allergen that causes allergies and asthma."

http://lancaster.unl.edu/pest/resources ... oach.shtml

jimmya wrote:While several people have commented on the 11th commandment, no one, who defends Sun Wah, has responded to my simple questions.

They tell us why they are willing to risk their health, but not why the vast vast majority of restaurants pass inspection, considering the roach is omnipresent, and a few do not. And why do they inspect for roaches and other insects.

You mean the questions you posted less than an hour ago and followed with a smartass remark? Yeah, I have no idea why nobody's bothered to respond to them </sarcasm>.

jimmya wrote:While several people have commented on the 11th commandment, no one, who defends Sun Wah, has responded to my simple questions.

Defends?

I'm not defending Sun Wah, it was closed, happens sometimes, it will reopen and I plan on being one of the first in the door.

If you want definitive answers to Chicago Dept of Health type questions I suggest you contact them directly.

Off the top of my head I could name 3-4 restaurants in my regular rotation that have been closed in similar fashion over the years, but am afraid it would prolong this increasingly circular thread.

Gary

Hi,

I had cockroaches in my first apartment in Washington, D.C. I had never seen one in my home and now I had quite a few. I thought it was part of the urban experience and didn't complain. When I overheard the building's manager instructing the maintenance man to exterminate various apartments. I went over to comment I had cockroaches, too. They seemed annoyed I had not said this earlier. I got the deer in the headlight look when I replied, "I thought this was standard apartment living. I didn't think you could do much about it."

Fast forward to our apartment in Moscow. There were cockroach problems, which were regularly attended to. Except for the apartment across the hall where an Indian family resided who believed cockroaches were ancestors. I would visit them to see cockroaches running up and down the living room walls. If the wife saw one, she would flick it off her finger over the balcony for an eight story drop. Somehow this action was not considered killing the cockroach and maybe it didn't. If she was out of town, her husband would avert his eyes to allow an exterminator to do his duty.

I have the impression once cockroaches enter a building, they never really leave. You can keep the population controlled, but total extermination is next to impossible.

Regards,

Dmnkly wrote:Many of us simply prefer to focus on the food.

I find that assumption harder and harder to maintain...

May I suggest this thread be moved to other talk? This is getting further and further away from the eating out board. That said, despite it's circularity (circularness?) it's been an interesting read. I know where I stand on the issue, but it's very interesting to see where others are.

G Wiv wrote:...but am afraid it would prolong this increasingly circular thread.

Indeed. Since the thread has long since become a forum for related (and not-so-related) discussions, what would happen if it got locked? I've read all the posts, some with interest, some with annoyance, and some with a smile (even!). But I can't see what else of substance is likely to be added at this point.

Yes, I know. I could just ignore the thread. But I have this addiction, you see. I read everything on LTH. I can't help myself. So, please. Help me. (This would be a cry for help.)

the counter argument, which was touched on in my deleted post, is that you should not take what the city of Chicago decrees or does as always right or justified. it is a city known for its big government machine and ensuing corruption. remember the ban on foie gras? this is that same city; always remember that when passing judgment.

MBK wrote:the counter argument, which was touched on in my deleted post, is that you should not take what the city of Chicago decrees or does as always right or justified. it is a city known for its big government machine and ensuing corruption. remember the ban on foie gras? this is that same city; always remember that when passing judgment.

Are you seriously going to suggest that requiring a restaurant to clean up its cockroach problem before it reopens its doors isn't right?