Darren72 wrote:So who cares what this guy thinks? Is he particularly influential?

More so in NY than anywhere else. He is a pretty well-regarded food writer and very passionate about what he does. He has written a couple books (one on pizza), hosted a food radio show, has a high-profile often-praised blog, and is occasionally published in the NY times. (He's also been a judge on Iron Chef America a few times).

I've met the guy and he's extremely passionate about finding good food and enthusiastic about sharing his experiences.

I care about what he writes online just as much as I care about what any LTHer writes online. It's all interesting to me, and if there's an error (like Mr. Levine had) I'm bothered by it.

Best,
Michael

Darren72 wrote:So who cares what this guy thinks? Is he particularly influential?

I learned long ago to take what non-locals say about our food scene with a large grain of salt. They're often biased, misinformed or both. I think case is this is no exception, especially considering Mr. Levine's opinion of Flourchild's, which was, in spite of its close proximity to my house, a place I only patronized once.

=R=

Levine propagates the belief that the only "real" pizza is Neopolitan-style and it's direct descendants in the U.S. (i.e. New York-style typified by Patsy's, Totonno's and John's and New Haven-style typified by Sally's). However, he ignores the fact that there are different regional dishes in Italy that are either called "pizza" in their localities or can otherwise be classified as "pizza".

Take Sicilian pizza (the Italian dish called "sfincione", not what is labeled "Sicilian pizza" in New York and elsewhere back east). One could argue that Chicago-style deep dish or pan pizza (to say nothing of the stuffed pizza served at Chicago Pizza and Oven Grinder Company) are distantly related to this dish. Thus, our local specialties can legitimately be called "pizza" even though their lineage is (possibly) Sicilian rather than Neopolitan, contrary to Levine's contentiions.

One could also fault Levine for not considering Roman-style pizza, such as that served locally by Pizza Metro.

Futhermore, Levine's book Pizza: A Slice of Heaven goes on at some length about a Long Island specialty called "Grandmother's Pizza", which is essentially just dough spread out on a rectangular baking tray then topped with olive oil, tomatoes and some romano, parmesan or mozzarella cheese. However, he really shortchanges Chicago-style thin crust "tavern" pizza, giving a cursory reference to Vito & Nicks while ignoring other purveyors of the style (e.g. Candlelite). Side note: I have to say that I hail from New York State and lived in New York City for many years, and I initially put down Chicago thin crust but now I have learned to appreciate this local style, even though I prefer the traditional Neopolitan and east coast styles of thin crust offered by Spacca Napoli, Coalfire, Piece, et al.

Rather than being the pizza wasteland that Levine makes it out to be, the Chicago area is fortunate to boast high quality purveyors of many different styles of "pizza" - local specialities "tavern-style" thin crust (e.g. Candlelite, Vito & Nicks), deep dish (e.g. Lou Malnatti's and Pequods)and pan (Burt's Place); Neopolitan (the aforementioned Spacca Napoli); New York-style thin crust (Coalfire and, to a lesser extent, Santullo's); New Haven-style thin crust (Piece); along with other miscellaneous types (as noted above, Chicago Pizza and Oven Grinder Company). Levine essentially puts Chicago at the same level as Omaha and Charlotte (no joke - his book devotes almost as many pages to Omaha as it does our fair city).

Comments about the author's bias aside, I am growing more and more conviced that SN has a growing inconsistency problem. Several posts up, I noted that on my last visit, the pizzas were way overtopped and the mushrooms were poorly cooked. The crust was still perfect on that visit, but not so when I returned more recently. Befitting the description in the article, my pizza was not nearly as charred as usual, and it did indeed seem to deflate after about 30 seconds on the table.

Kennyz wrote:Comments about the author's bias aside, I am growing more and more conviced that SN has a growing inconsistency problem. Several posts up, I noted that on my last visit, the pizzas were way overtopped and the mushrooms were poorly cooked. The crust was still perfect on that visit, but not so when I returned more recently. Befitting the description in the article, my pizza was not nearly as charred as usual, and it did indeed seem to deflate after about 30 seconds on the table.

You shouldn't need any more convincing. Even Cookie, who was never as enamored with SN as I was, said after our two most recent visits, "It's not the same. The bread isn't as good as it used to be."

ld111134, thank you so much for your post. I've recently moved to Chicago from NY and by chance the first pizza I tried here was horrific. Since my friends have been telling me they like deep dish pizza, I don't want my first experience to be the last. So thank you for the run down on the local pizza places. I'll certainly try them out as soon as I have a chance. By the way, if you have suggestions re good tapas places around here - please send them my way. Thanks again.

hungryinchicago wrote:Since my friends have been telling me they like deep dish pizza, I don't want my first experience to be the last.

Welcome to Chicago and LTHForum. You may find this thread helpful: The deep-dish of desire

service announcement: Spacca Napoli has a sign indicating that they are closed until September 16.

LTH,

Spacca Napoli really clicked last evening, short wait, informed friendly service, dead on delicious. Classic Bufalina and a white pizza special with wild mushrooms and lightly marinated artichokes making me wonder why it had been a few months since my last Spacca meal.

Chatted a bit with the intensely pizza obsessed Jonathan Goldsmith, his level of detail and artists appreciation of something many of us take at face value is enlightening.

Enjoy,
Gary

By coincidence, I had a fantastic lunch last weekend at Spacca Napoli. Did I mention that it was fantastic?


Cannellini Bean and Escarole Soup
This was one of the best soups I've had in a long time. The weather was cold, gray and blustery and this rich, hearty soup really hit the spot. Its flavor and texture -- slightly viscous from the beans -- was just perfect.



Finochietti
I'm not completely sure what was in these delicious little balls but they contained fennel, other vegetables and bread crumbs. They were fried -- crispy and light -- and the bright tomato sauce atop them was a fantastic accompaniment.



Grilled Vegetables
Very nicely rendered peppers, eggplant and zucchini.



Quattro Formaggi
One of my favorite versions, and my standard order at SN. I love the amount of blue, which delivers a kick without going overboard.



Bianco Di Stefano (daily special)
Pancetta, ricotta & black truffle-pecorino . . . yummmmm!



Uh . . . Yeah!



Salsiccia Pizza
Even the "plain old" sausage pizza trascends at Spacca Napoli.

While this is not my favorite style of pizza, they do such a great job at Spacca Napoli -- paying obsessive attention to every detail -- that the net results are nothing short of spectacular. The crust is delicious through the entire chew and pleasurably uneven, too; delivering alternating bites of crispiness, light doughiness and char. The toppings are first-rate and the cheeses are flavorful without being overly salty or rubbery. They melt nicely into a soft ooziness that is downright addictive. Spacca Napoli is a great example of the 'less is more' school of pizza. Rather than bombard their pies with ridiculous amounts of cheese and toppings, the pizzas are balanced in a way that allows them to cook evenly and showcase the exceptional ingredients that comprise them. I wish every restaurant cared as much about what they serve as Spacca Napoli does.

=R=

Maybe I just don't understand. Maybe I'm just destined to die stupid. What is really so good about Spacca Napoli? Yes they were one of the first to wood fire pizzas (pizza d.o.c. has been doing it since 2000 but who cares), and the chef is classically trained (6 month course in dough production and money to fly and buy his way into kitchens in Napoli). Yet I can't get beyond the 3 times I've been there and eaten phony greasy, flimsy, bad pizza.Neopolitan, and forgive if I'm wrong is supposed to be somewhat crispy and even have some char to it. I f I'm wrong please point me to something that is right.
I am proud to live in a city where a small restaurant can be successful, but can we please demand the expectation of a fantastic pizza tauted as one of the cities best, and not just blindly proclaim its greatness because Penny Pollack says so.
Thanks for listening and this was my first post,
dj

djbistro wrote:Yet I can't get beyond the 3 times I've been there and eaten phony greasy, flimsy, bad pizza.Neopolitan, and forgive if I'm wrong is supposed to be somewhat crispy and even have some char to it. I f I'm wrong please point me to something that is right.
I am proud to live in a city where a small restaurant can be successful, but can we please demand the expectation of a fantastic pizza tauted as one of the cities best, and not just blindly proclaim its greatness because Penny Pollack says so.

1. Folks here were praising Spacca Napoli long before Penny Pollack had gotten anywhere near the place.
2. If there wasn't any char on your pizza over three visits, you have the worst luck of any diner I've encountered.
3. Just because something isn't to your tastes doesn't mean those who disagree do so because the MSM "says so". It's enough to say you disagree. Strongly, even. But to suggest that the people who have praised Spacca Napoli here -- many of whom I'm quite confident know a hell of a lot more about Neapolitan pizza than you do -- are incapable of making their own assessments is not only stupid, it's insulting.

Dmnkly wrote:1. Folks here were praising Spacca Napoli long before Penny Pollack had gotten anywhere near the place.
2. If there wasn't any char on your pizza over three visits, you have the worst luck of any diner I've encountered.
3. Just because something isn't to your tastes doesn't mean those who disagree do so because the MSM "says so". It's enough to say you disagree. Strongly, even. But to suggest that the people who have praised Spacca Napoli here -- many of whom I'm quite confident know a hell of a lot more about Neapolitan pizza than you do -- are incapable of making their own assessments is not only stupid, it's insulting.

Hey don't get your panties all in a bunch. Pull them out and breath.....ahh all better?
Relax remember the breathing. I also asked, if you thought I was wrong to point me in the right direction. Here is were my own fault comes into play. I should have been more specific and asked for another restaurant as an example.
thanks

djbistro wrote:

Dmnkly wrote:1. Folks here were praising Spacca Napoli long before Penny Pollack had gotten anywhere near the place.
2. If there wasn't any char on your pizza over three visits, you have the worst luck of any diner I've encountered.
3. Just because something isn't to your tastes doesn't mean those who disagree do so because the MSM "says so". It's enough to say you disagree. Strongly, even. But to suggest that the people who have praised Spacca Napoli here -- many of whom I'm quite confident know a hell of a lot more about Neapolitan pizza than you do -- are incapable of making their own assessments is not only stupid, it's insulting.

Hey don't get your panties all in a bunch. Pull them out and breath.....ahh all better?
Relax remember the breathing. I also asked, if you thought I was wrong to point me in the right direction. Here is were my own fault comes into play. I should have been more specific and asked for another restaurant as an example.
thanks

No, what you should have done, upon posting to a new forum for the first time, was refrain from insulting everybody by telling them the only reason they like a restaurant is because some local critic -- who wasn't even on the scene until after they were -- told them to.

It's just polite.

Welcome to the forum. I think you'll find that polite, intelligent discussion will take you further here than the typical hyperbolic internet BS.

Dmnkly wrote:Welcome to the forum. I think you'll find that polite, intelligent discussion will take you further here than the typical hyperbolic internet BS.

DUDE not trying but obviously succeeding were I don't want to. Stop being offended.
I am still looking for another example, humblely od neopolitan style pizza.
Thank you

djbistro wrote:I f I'm wrong [about Spacca Napoli] please point me to something that is right...DUDE not trying but obviously succeeding were I don't want to. Stop being offended.
I am still looking for another example, humblely od neopolitan style pizza.
Thank you

You seem to be asking people who think Spacca Napoli is tops to contradict their own taste by telling you about a Neopolitan pizza place they like better.

Mr. Bistro obviously just doesn't know what Neopolitan pizza is. I've been there 5 or 6 times (including tonight) and I've never had a "greasy" pizza. By design, the crust is chewy and a center that is wet. you are not supposed to be able to hold a slice horizontally and have it hold up like a frozen Totinos.

Have you been to Pizza DOC ? Have you been to Coal Fire ? Have you had any other neopolitan-style pizza ? The pizza you get at Spacca Napoli is that style and is a fine example of it. People here will be happy to suggest other styles of pizza that might suit your tastes if you tell us what you're looking for. Piece has New Haven style, which is similar to Neopolitan, but a bit more sturdy. Candelite has a true cracker crust pizza that has been praised. Pequods has a pan-style with an unusual charred cheese crust. Maybe they would suit your tastes better.

Coming in and throwing hand grenades isn't the best tack when looking to get advice.

Guys, please, let's turn down the heat a little here.

Bistro, you may not care for it (different strokes). or you've been exceptionally unlucky, but Spacca Napoli produces the best example of Neapolitan pizza that at least I've had not only in Chicago (far superior to Pizza DOC in its heyday and Caponies, which preceded Pizza DOC) but in this country, and for that reason I consider it a Chicago treasure and worthy of the praise it has received here and elsewhere. For those who want something comparable to what they found on via Tribunali or in Rome or elsewhere in the Peninsula, rather than in NYC or South Philly or Wabash Avenue, that's where I would send them, always without regret.

djbistro wrote:I can't get beyond the 3 times I've been there and eaten phony greasy, flimsy, bad pizza.Neopolitan

Not meaning to pile on, but I'd be curious what dJbistro considers a better, more authentic/less phony example of Neapolitan pizza, and where it was served. I do know that the Associazione Verace Pizza Napoletano has certified Spacca Napoli as one of only 25 producers of authentic Neapolitan Pizza in the US, and the only one in Chicago; but I can't completely discount the possibility that they may have overlooked someplace that does it better.

The three pizzas I've had at Pizza D.O.C. have reminded me much more of the pizza I had in Florence than the two pizzas I've had at Spacca Napoli, especially the most recent time I went, when it was rubbery and undercooked, with nasty canned mushrooms on top. (I should have remembered the board discussion about the mushrooms!) Maybe that visit was an anomaly, but it came right around the time when a couple of other people were posting about a slight decline in quality, so I wondered if I was there on a bad cooking stretch for them?

i<3pizza wrote:The three pizzas I've had at Pizza D.O.C. have reminded me much more of the pizza I had in Florence than the two pizzas I've had at Spacca Napoli, especially the most recent time I went, when it was rubbery and undercooked, with nasty canned mushrooms on top. (I should have remembered the board discussion about the mushrooms!) Maybe that visit was an anomaly, but it came right around the time when a couple of other people were posting about a slight decline in quality, so I wondered if I was there on a bad cooking stretch for them?

Since I have been a vocal critic of a couple of Spacca Napoli experiences, and I have commented about poorly cooked mushrooms at SN, let me be absolutely clear that the the mushrooms at SN have never been of the canned variety on any of the numerous occasions on which I've eaten there. I absolutely despise canned mushrooms, and though the slimy mushrooms on my SN pizza were bad, they were not nearly as revolting as canned mushrooms.

i<3pizza wrote:than the two pizzas I've had at Spacca Napoli, especially the most recent time I went, when it was rubbery and undercooked, with nasty canned mushrooms on top. (I should have remembered the board discussion about the mushrooms!)

Are you f'n kidding me, canned mushrooms at Spacca Napoli, no way, never, no how. I was recently at Spacca Napoli and thought the pizza terrific, including one with lightly marinated artichoke and mushroom. (Please see my recent post upthread)

Of, and if there was a board discussion about Spacca and canned mushrooms please point me to it, I looked and can not find even a vague reference to such nonsense.

Gary

G Wiv wrote:

i<3pizza wrote:than the two pizzas I've had at Spacca Napoli, especially the most recent time I went, when it was rubbery and undercooked, with nasty canned mushrooms on top. (I should have remembered the board discussion about the mushrooms!)

Are you f'n kidding me, canned mushrooms at Spacca Napoli, no way, never, no how. I was recently at Spacca Napoli and thought the pizza terrific, including one with lightly marinated artichoke and mushroom. (Please see my recent post upthread)

Of, and if there was a board discussion about Spacca and canned mushrooms please point me to it, I looked and can not find even a vague reference to such nonsense.

Gary

Not entirely i<pizza's fault: in scrolling through my old posts, I do now see that I said the mushrooms were "reminiscent of the canned variety" - I'm still sure they were not actually canned, but I must've really disliked them to use that simile.

i<3pizza wrote:The three pizzas I've had at Pizza D.O.C. have reminded me much more of the pizza I had in Florence than the two pizzas I've had at Spacca Napoli, especially the most recent time I went, when it was rubbery and undercooked...

Probably because the pizza you get in Florence isn't Neapolitan. Even in Rome... closer to Naples than Florence... you generally get a crust that's cooked crisper, and though I've only been to D.O.C. once, it reminded me a lot more of a Roman pizza than a Neapolitan. I know you don't intend it as such, but what you've said is like saying that the food at Lao Sze Chuan isn't like the food you got in Hong Kong. Of course it isn't, but you're comparing apples and oranges. Food isn't homogenous across the nation of Italy any more than it is over the nation of China (admittedly, it's probably not a fair comparison in terms of range... but I hope the point stands).

Especially frustrating since the distinction has been discussed in this very thread. People may believe Spacca Napoli's pizza is a poor Neapolitan, or it may not be to you tastes, or they've been having consistency issues... or you may think that Neapolitan pizza sucks! And though none are my experience, all are totally valid criticisms. But really... and I'm not trying to single you out, i<3pizza, because lord knows the thread is full of similar complaints... what's the point in criticizing Spacca Napoli for not making a very good Roman pizza or a very good Florentine pizza or a very good NY style pizza or a very good Chicago thin crust pizza?

Sorry, I claimed the mushrooms were canned, based on the comparison that KennyZ pointed out in addition to their taste when I ate them. My claim was too strong there.

I understand your point, Dmnkly, and I did read the earlier discussion (but have forgotten a lot of it by now). You can get Neapolitan style pizza in Florence. And I didn't have a crispy crust in mind, even though I complained the Spacca Napoli crust was 'rubbery'; I just thought it was undercooked even for my understanding of Neapolitan.

Are D.O.C.'s and Spacca's pizzas not meant to be Neapolitan?

i<3pizza wrote:And I didn't have a crispy crust in mind, even though I complained the Spacca Napoli crust was 'rubbery'; I just thought it was undercooked even for my understanding of Neapolitan.

Are D.O.C.'s and Spacca's pizzas not meant to be Neapolitan?

Oh, yours very well may have been undercooked! I don't know

I was just trying to make the point that your experience in Florence doesn't necessarily apply to SN, that's all. In my personal experience, the pizzas I had in Naples -- generally speaking -- weren't nearly as "well done" as those I had further north. But I also haven't spent enough time in Naples that I'd consider myself any kind of authority on the subject.

I can't speak to D.O.C.'s intentions, just that I thought it was closer to what I had in Rome than what I had in Naples. Neither positive nor negative, merely a matter of comparison. (Though if I were to choose one of the two restaurants to have on my block, it's no contest for me.)

Point taken. I feel bad making a judgment about SN on the basis of that one experience, anyway. It just happened to come at a time when others were saying similar things. I'm definitely going to go again, after I have tried Sapori di Napoli and Coalfire and Vito & Nick's and Burt's and Marie's! :-p

Dmnkly wrote:

i<3pizza wrote:And I didn't have a crispy crust in mind, even though I complained the Spacca Napoli crust was 'rubbery'; I just thought it was undercooked even for my understanding of Neapolitan.

Are D.O.C.'s and Spacca's pizzas not meant to be Neapolitan?

Oh, yours very well may have been undercooked! I don't know

I was just trying to make the point that your experience in Florence doesn't necessarily apply to SN, that's all. In my personal experience, the pizzas I had in Naples -- generally speaking -- weren't nearly as "well done" as those I had further north. But I also haven't spent enough time in Naples that I'd consider myself any kind of authority on the subject.

I can't speak to D.O.C.'s intentions, just that I thought it was closer to what I had in Rome than what I had in Naples. Neither positive nor negative, merely a matter of comparison. (Though if I were to choose one of the two restaurants to have on my block, it's no contest for me.)

On one of my visits to D.O.C. (which I happen to like, btw), my server specifically mentioned that the pizza was Roman-style and often miscategorized as Neapolitan. Interestingly (or maybe not), I've also had this distinction pointed out (in passing) at Spacca Napoli by a great, knowledgeable server named Adrien, who mentioned to us -- in a pizza-centric discussion -- that D.O.C. was more Roman in style.

=R=

Just another who'd like to point out that while I am no expert, that every pizza I have consumed in Naples and Campania in general tended to be more flimsy and doughy/"undercooked" than other I have enjoyed in Italy. It seemed a trend there so I'd not be surprised that that would be the pizza one would get at Spacca Napoli. I enjoy it and find the cooking method and distribution of ingredients puts more focus on the individiual components; bread, cheese, toppings and allowing them to shine individually and collectively than many other styles of pizza.

Now I want to go try SN and see how it compares to my experiences overseas.