Kevin Pang wrote:

Kevin Pang weights in with a first blush review in today's Tribune

What i love about this site is that every one of his major points (taste/texture of fries, burger underseasoned, and In N Out still better) were already covered by the first two reviews in this thread. lol. We must be doin' something right.

Hello LTH'ers. Kevin Pang from the Tribune here. I don't usually respond in forums, but I have to defend my honor this one time. The commenter above implies that my review was influenced by this thread, or that I'm stealing the talking points and regurgitating as my opinion.

Kevin, there were two commentators here. The first commentator you cite was me (I wanted people to know about your review) and the second post, by my read, was more of a confirmation of some calls than a suggestion that anyone was stealing from anyone else.

That aside, what is happening here raises an interesting issue that came up last week during a presentation a number of local "media folks" gave to a group of local food producers. If you feel you're attacked or being criticized unfairly (which you do), is it a good strategy to defend yourself on this or any public forum? I'm not sure. I know the tendency, when one feels an injustice is done, is to defend one's honor, but getting "defensive" (or just sounding that way even if you don't intend to) can get have negative repercussions.

Any way, I liked your review, and when I read it, I actually got a comforting feeling that my initial impressions (many not expressed) were confirmed by yours.

Thanks for joining in the discussion, which I hope stays productive.

Hammond

PS. I still proudly wear my fish taco wristband.

nr706 wrote:I read the comments as being more along the lines of "great minds think alike," not that one party is appropriating ideas from another.

Ditto here.

If anything, I could also interpret the comments to suggest that "we" lowly Forumites are capable of similar thoughts to those of a "fancy" professional journalist.

Hi Kevin -

Thanks for taking the time to write. I think most here consider you one of us, and don't perceive the kind of wall, line, or divide you're talking about. It seems like you also consider yourself part of the site to offer these comments; that's great. We're all writers on a generally respectful and minimally-moderated playing field - that's the beauty and egalitarianism of the site.

To contextualize the post Ghazi, he has been an insightful, amusing, and responsible poster for the past five months, and even uses my favorite emoticon, Mr. Green. I don't think anything was meant by the comment other than playful pride in the site. I think we all wish we could get a paycheck for our adventures in dining and have a fond jealousy of those that get to do so. There is also an obvious feeling of loyalty to our LTHU alma mater. I don't see these as necessarily presenting a conflict in criticism, and appreciate the open platform we have for both critiques and meta-critiques. And anonymous criticism is just not what it's about for the vast majority of us very public event-goers and story-tellers.

One wish: I really hope the producers of "Spain - On the Road Again" don't emerge on the forum. I'd have a hard time keeping a straight face with the welcome, though I would offer it.

Kevin Pang wrote:
I'll bring up another example: the thread several weeks back about bloggers vs. chefs, where some accused us of misleading readers by selectively pulling out the most salacious comments. Or a commenter conjuring up imagined conversations (I was there in the room) that we had with the chefs, such as:

Reporter: What's your biggest pet peeve about diners?

Kim: Really, nothing I can think of. Diners are what allow me to do what I love every day.

Reporter: OK, but if you had to pick one thing that you wish they wouldn't do, what would you say?

I could go on. I can't speak for all my journalism colleagues, but the majority of those who write about food are upstanding, ethical and not lazy. It's a shame that several high and mighty commenters on this board stand on their pedestal, try to flatter themselves behind the anonymous firewall of the Internet, and draw a line in the sand as if it's you guys vs. us guys.

News alert: we're all on the same team.
kpang [at] tribune [dot] com

Mr. Pang,

"High and mighty"? "Flatter themselves behind the anonymous firewall?"

Between those inflammatory words, your irresponsible, out-of-context quoting, and the childish defensive attitude, do you really think you're doing much to erase the so-called line in the sand?

Kennyz (full name and phone number available on request)

tribguy wrote:try to flatter themselves behind the anonymous firewall of the Internet

many of the regular posters here are no less anonymous than you are my friend... it's pretty easy to determine real identity here, many people don't try and hide it. and for that matter, there are people here that are pretty well respected in the chicago food scene.

Panther in the Den wrote:I wonder if I can get some of the Cajun seasoning on the burger. While not traditional I think it would be quite good!

is the cajun seasoning Old Bay or something similar? that's an extremely common addition to burgers and fries, and really just about anything else in the DC/MD area.. where Five Guys has its roots..

dddane wrote:is the cajun seasoning Old Bay or something similar? that's an extremely common addition to burgers and fries, and really just about anything else in the DC/MD area.. where Five Guys has its roots..

No, not Old Bay, but some nice, well-balanced, genericy type of cajun spice blend. A little heat, but not that much.
Fries with cajun spice on the side was my standard order at DC area 5 Guys. That way, I can apply it as and where I please.

On a related note, I had my first In-n-Out burger in 15 years last week in San Francisco. It was nowhere near as good as my memory of LA In-n-Out, and also nowhere near as good as my memory of DC 5 Guys.
Now, I've confused myself and don't know what I like. Hrmph.

nr706 wrote:I read the comments as being more along the lines of "great minds think alike," not that one party is appropriating ideas from another.

Come on kids. We all love the same stuff.

Kevin. Thanks for posting and we never intended you any distress. nr706 did sum it up well.

Let's leave it at that.

dddane wrote:

tribguy wrote:try to flatter themselves behind the anonymous firewall of the Internet

many of the regular posters here are no less anonymous than you are my friend... it's pretty easy to determine real identity here, many people don't try and hide it. and for that matter, there are people here that are pretty well respected in the chicago food scene.

Panther in the Den wrote:I wonder if I can get some of the Cajun seasoning on the burger. While not traditional I think it would be quite good!

is the cajun seasoning Old Bay or something similar? that's an extremely common addition to burgers and fries, and really just about anything else in the DC/MD area.. where Five Guys has its roots..

At the old Healy's in Forest Park, they had some awesome seasoning for their fries. I always thought it was a Bloody Mary seasoning.

Actually the Five Guys seasoning would make an awesome Bloody Mary! Spicy!

dddane wrote:is the cajun seasoning Old Bay or something similar? that's an extremely common addition to burgers and fries, and really just about anything else in the DC/MD area.. where Five Guys has its roots..

I did not taste Old Bay on the fries that I had at the Madison, WI. On the other hand, I did not like the fries that I was served at all as they were past well done.

As for Old Bay, there are two classes of people in the mid-Atlantic - those why put Old bay on everything and those who put it on everything but seafood.

Thanks for the feedback. As I suspected (and upon re-reading the post), I probably interpreted the post through a different filter.

Upon further reflection, I was probably more peeved (this is two levels below pissed; one level below annoyed) about the whole bloggers vs. chefs thread, which in certain sections, unfairly portrayed us as something we're not. This Five Guys comment -- and whether it was intended or not, perception becomes reality -- gave me incentive to post.

Again, I'm in awe of what you guys do, the passion that's displayed in the insightful posts, and I was and will remain a faithful reader. What's undeniable is some underlying sense of us vs. them, at least to some, and I just wanted to diffuse that.

Cheers,
Kevin

<group hug>

Kevin Pang wrote:I had a wonderful dinner at Sun Wah last week with Stevez and Mr./Mrs. Wiv, and one topic brought up was this allusion that we "mainstream media" food writers steal/lift/borrow our material from LTH.

Kevin,

Terrific to see you posting on LTHForum, though I do wish it was as a fellow enthusiast instead of to "defend your honor", which on my read through was never in question.

Kevin Pang wrote:What's undeniable is some underlying sense of us vs. them, at least to some, and I just wanted to diffuse that.

I have great respect for a number of Chicago's print media food pros, you, your Tribune colleague Monica Eng and Mike Sula of the Chicago Reader to name three. I don't, and never have, viewed it as us against them, though, as I mention in a recent Time Out Roundtable on this very subject (link to roundtable), there is natural cross pollination between media outlets, which is not to imply "steal/lift/borrow", but a positive spin up of the volume and quality of available information. The more info out there the better we all dine.

Enjoy,
Gary

nr706 wrote:<group hug>

OK, I'll join in the hug, and apologize to Kevin for adding fuel to a fire that should just burn out. Kevin, you're a good and thoughtful writer. I took your comments personally because you quoted me, and - as you surely know - it's hard to see yourself in print, being interpreted by others in ways you didn't intend. In the quotes you used, my intent was simply to give the benefit of doubt to chefs who were being bashed pretty harshly. I used an absurd example of a theoretical interview with those chefs not because I thought you and other wriiters would behave irresponsibly, but because I wanted to make the point that the chefs might not have intended to come across the way many perceived them.

OK, not to derail this derailment any further, but I have to ask...

Is it street (or pay) parking only? I'm really not that familiar with the area even though it's relatively close to me. I'd like to zip by there on Friday but I hate parking issues.

midas wrote:OK, not to derail this derailment any further, but I have to ask...

Is it street (or pay) parking only? I'm really not that familiar with the area even though it's relatively close to me. I'd like to zip by there on Friday but I hate parking issues.

In the People's Republic of Oak Park, you can park for free (for an hour or so) in the public lot (just north of Five Guys), or, if you're a Nieman Marxist, pay a premium (like 25 cents/20 minutes) to park on the street.

Seems this place is right around the corner from the Forest Park blue line stop. I like burgers and I'm gonna go check it out.

*EDIT* The posters below are correct (and thanks!), Green Line it is!

ogre wrote:Seems this place is right around the corner from the Forest Park blue line stop. I like burgers and I'm gonna go check it out.

It's right around the corner from the green line stop on either Harlem or Marion.

David Hammond wrote:

ogre wrote:Seems this place is right around the corner from the Forest Park blue line stop. I like burgers and I'm gonna go check it out.

It's right around the corner from the green line stop on either Harlem or Marion.

Indeed. You're looking at more like a mile or so from the blue line to Five Guys, as opposed to 1-1.5 blocks from the green line.

It would be walkable from the blue line, but I wouldn't want to do it unless things warm up a little bit.

David Hammond wrote:

midas wrote:OK, not to derail this derailment any further, but I have to ask...

Is it street (or pay) parking only? I'm really not that familiar with the area even though it's relatively close to me. I'd like to zip by there on Friday but I hate parking issues.

In the People's Republic of Oak Park, you can park for free (for an hour or so) in the public lot (just north of Five Guys), or, if you're a Nieman Marxist, pay a premium (like 25 cents/20 minutes) to park on the street.

NB

Our far-sighted Village recent raised its parking fees. The meters, the few on Lake as well as those in the lots south of Lake are a fortune now, I believe $1.50 per hour--which is why now you will fairly readily find spaces.

The big lots, including the lot just north of Lake (near the forthcoming Trader Joe's) used to be free on Saturday and Sunday. It is now priced to go on Saturdays. It is still a relatively good bargain though with that first two hours free thing.

Vital Information wrote:Our far-sighted Village recent raised its parking fees. The meters, the few on Lake as well as those in the lots south of Lake are a fortune now, I believe $1.50 per hour--which is why now you will fairly readily find spaces.

I believe the Village (in a rare move that actually promotes rather than thwarts commerce) recently concluded that $1.50/hr was too much and re-adjusted those meters yet again; this time, downward in price.

David Hammond wrote:

Vital Information wrote:Our far-sighted Village recent raised its parking fees. The meters, the few on Lake as well as those in the lots south of Lake are a fortune now, I believe $1.50 per hour--which is why now you will fairly readily find spaces.

I believe the Village (in a rare move that actually promotes rather than thwarts commerce) recently concluded that $1.50/hr was too much and re-adjusted those meters yet again; this time, downward in price.

Wow!

The Village has not been this responsive since the plight of Tasty Dog*

*Speaking of Tasty Dog, Oak Park and a certain Trib columnist, I'm afraid that little experiment was one lousy bit of social science. Lesson one in experimentation: the "tester" is not the same person as the person recording the results. My daughter notes that she was there for one of the reported slurs, and it was said not slurry, but in jest. BTW, although I did it the hard way with Master's Degree in a social science, everything you need to know about experimentation can be found here.

ogre wrote:Seems this place is right around the corner from the Forest Park blue line stop. I like burgers and I'm gonna go check it out.

As already mentioned a short walk from the Green Line. Also close to the Union Pacific Metra stop at Harlem.

Back to the fries... While being touted as being double fried they were nowhere as good as the fries at Wiener and Still Champion. Seemed single fried to me.

David Hammond wrote:

Vital Information wrote:Our far-sighted Village recent raised its parking fees. The meters, the few on Lake as well as those in the lots south of Lake are a fortune now, I believe $1.50 per hour--which is why now you will fairly readily find spaces.

I believe the Village (in a rare move that actually promotes rather than thwarts commerce) recently concluded that $1.50/hr was too much and re-adjusted those meters yet again; this time, downward in price.

Yup! When I stopped by on Monday there was a spot a short distance from the door and the charge was 25 cents for 15 minutes.

I can confirm that the meters directly in front of 5G are a quarter per 15 minutes, which is still sad to me.

Five Guys offers the best burger I've had in Oak Park, which may not actually be saying much. I liked the loose, crisp-edged patty, though it could have used more salt and black pepper as previously requested, and the brioche-ish bun was excellent. The overall scent of bakery-and-steak coming out of the wrapper did remind me of Fuddrucker's in the good old days. Weaker were the grilled onions, which were wet at crunchy, but could be better caramelized later in the day. Fresh jalapenos were unrepetantly hot. Bacon was overcrisp and more like bacon bits than rich fatty bacon strips, but did contribute some much-needed salt. This combo - hot peppers, bacon, grilled onions - is my standard at That's-A-Burger, which blows Five Guys out of the water, but as Chicago-accessible chains go, this is just about as good as it gets, and handily beats out cryo-Syscopatties at Alehouse, Bar Louie, Parky's, the hot dog stands, etc.

Fries were way good, Smokin' M's potato-fresh, but crisper, and the Cajun seasoning takes them over the edge. As reported, a regular fry order can feed about 4 people, since after they fill the cup, they dump an extra shovel-full in on top of everything else in your bag.

David Hammond wrote:Any way, I liked your review, and when I read it, I actually got a comforting feeling that my initial impressions (many not expressed) were confirmed by yours.

DH, which initial impressions did you feel you needed confirmation to express? This might be useful data for those on the fence.

David Hammond wrote:

Vital Information wrote:Our far-sighted Village recent raised its parking fees. The meters, the few on Lake as well as those in the lots south of Lake are a fortune now, I believe $1.50 per hour--which is why now you will fairly readily find spaces.

I believe the Village (in a rare move that actually promotes rather than thwarts commerce) recently concluded that $1.50/hr was too much and re-adjusted those meters yet again; this time, downward in price.

Does the parking garage on the north side of Lake St still give (I think) the first two hours free?

Santander wrote:

David Hammond wrote:Any way, I liked your review, and when I read it, I actually got a comforting feeling that my initial impressions (many not expressed) were confirmed by yours.

DH, which initial impressions did you feel you needed confirmation to express? This might be useful data for those on the fence.

Oh, I didn't feel the need for confirmation; it's just always comforting when someone else reads a meal the same way I do.

Our impressions were similar in that neither Kevin nor I was knocked out by the burger, though we both liked it okay; my praise was tepid, and by being so lukewarm I was hoping to convey a sense of Meh, which he did more distinctly with a line like "come for the fries, and maybe have a burger,too."

One point I didn't make, but which he did, is that the burger was kind of "messy" -- with all the optional ingredients piled on, it was not easy to eat. We differ in that he dug the bun, which shredded apart in my hands about two-thirds of the way through.

I can't believe any fence-sitters will now tip either way, but there you have it.

Even you yourself don't realize the immense influence of The Hat on fence-sitters.



Thanks for the additional detail. I should live by my own call-out and go back and explain why Cocina Barro was so cringe-inducing.

I went to Five Guys with friends on Monday night who know it from the East Coast and it was good -- busy, a little dirty from a long day, and a bit slow service-wise, but good! In honor of Kevin -- whose review I had read in addition to the posts here -- I ordered the bacon-cheese hot dog and it was VERY good. So thanks, Kevin, for tipping me on to the non-burger options -- thanks for doing what you do and thanks to the other LTHers for their thoughtful reviews as well!

Did anyone mention that the "brothers" were actually onsite? They gave us a $10 gift card for giving us a hard time. Our group of 4 all arrived individually and headed straight to our table first before veering to the line on the right. I was the last to arrive, but apparently they had hollered at each of us as we arrived for going to our table first, and wanted to make it up to us.

I grew up in Wisconsin so am a Culvers girl at heart. Also lived in San Diego where In-N-Out reigned supreme, although I always felt vaguely disappointed when I went there. I think Five Guys rivals In-N-Out for fries -- would need to try a burger to see how it stacks up against Culvers.

Santander wrote:I can confirm that the meters directly in front of 5G are a quarter per 15 minutes, which is still sad to me.

Five Guys offers the best burger I've had in Oak Park, which may not actually be saying much. I liked the loose, crisp-edged patty, though it could have used more salt and black pepper as previously requested, and the brioche-ish bun was excellent. The overall scent of bakery-and-steak coming out of the wrapper did remind me of Fuddrucker's in the good old days. Weaker were the grilled onions, which were wet at crunchy, but could be better caramelized later in the day. Fresh jalapenos were unrepetantly hot. Bacon was overcrisp and more like bacon bits than rich fatty bacon strips, but did contribute some much-needed salt. This combo - hot peppers, bacon, grilled onions - is my standard at That's-A-Burger, which blows Five Guys out of the water, but as Chicago-accessible chains go, this is just about as good as it gets, and handily beats out cryo-Syscopatties at Alehouse, Bar Louie, Parky's, the hot dog stands, etc.

Fries were way good, Smokin' M's potato-fresh, but crisper, and the Cajun seasoning takes them over the edge. As reported, a regular fry order can feed about 4 people, since after they fill the cup, they dump an extra shovel-full in on top of everything else in your bag.

David Hammond wrote:Any way, I liked your review, and when I read it, I actually got a comforting feeling that my initial impressions (many not expressed) were confirmed by yours.

DH, which initial impressions did you feel you needed confirmation to express? This might be useful data for those on the fence.

When i was there for my first stop on Monday I noticed that they deep fry their bacon. I would imagine that their intent is to have perfect bacon and just don't have the routine down pat yet. Time will tell.

As per a eariler and later post I will try the cheese and bacon hot dog after trying to get them to do a Chicago Dog (I don't think they can steam it though). The dog was really good.

Vital Information wrote:
*Speaking of Tasty Dog, Oak Park and a certain Trib columnist, I'm afraid that little experiment was one lousy bit of social science. Lesson one in experimentation: the "tester" is not the same person as the person recording the results. My daughter notes that she was there for one of the reported slurs, and it was said not slurry, but in jest. BTW, although I did it the hard way with Master's Degree in a social science, everything you need to know about experimentation can be found here.

VI - thanks for the "here" link [to the Hammond story about revealing his Chowhound affiliation at Yum Thai]. What you and David considered according to the Heisenberg Principle (or shorthand thereof) and Hawthorne Studies (great link here), I always weigh in light of the Prime Directive, stated in the original Star Trek series and then expanded upon in Star Trek: The Next Generation, which is of course one of the five greatest works of Western humanities:

"No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet. No references to space or the fact that there are other worlds or civilizations."

Unless the restaurant in question has developed "warp technology" (having a staff member post on LTH, or having been nominated for a GNR, or producing one's own goat milk or olive oil or obscure Mexican herbs on premises) and "contact is imminent" (if they're invited to the awards dinner, hosting a holiday party, or if they break the fourth wall themselves and offer that they would be happy to do something special for forum-goers), I always refrain from self-identification. I want their sui generis, organic, unaffected product, served to me just like the next guy, whether the next guy knows about the secret Thai menu or not. It just seems more "authentic," which seems to be what most of us crave, right?

I don't think a restaurant existing purely for forum gourmets would be much of a restaurant, just as I don't think a planet-culture* existing for the sole purpose of joining the Federation would be remotely interesting. You gotta have roots, man: your own thing, your own way, before someone can take notice and want to be a part of that experience.

In any case, I doubt my burger at Five Guys today would have been more well-seasoned if I said I was from LTH or the Reader or the Trib. They're essentially Pakleds. But then I don't quibble when Moto offers us the dining experiences of our lifetimes. Having seen the kitchen, they're light-years ahead of us. Engage.


* ever notice that in Rodenberrian and Lucasian cosmologies, all planets have one unified culture and biome? Like "forest moon" and "planet of warlike brown people?" Even fertile imaginations hit the wall somewhere.