My first sour(not)dough

Hi all:

One of my goals for this winter is to get over my bread-baking fears and build some skills. So I've been experimenting and my confidence has been bolstered by the very good butterhorn rolls I made for dinner at Mhays and a terrific whole wheat I made a few weeks ago. This week, I thought I'd try sourdough. I used Bittman's recipe. His intructions for the starter recommended using flour, water and a bit of yeast and starting it two days before baking. My starter was looking good and by the day I was set to make the dough, it sure smelled sour. I made the dough on Thursday very late night, let it rise overnight into the late afternoon (in a very cool kitchen - I would have shaped and baked sooner but couldn't get to it before that night.). Shaped it, second rise and baked it on Friday night. It looked pretty good. Texture was good though it maybe could have used another five minutes. Tasted OK - fine for bread, but there was no sour - no tang. And it tasted a bit bland for bread. What do you think happened? What did I not do right with the starter?

From here on I'm going to experiement using the recipes in Nick Malghieri's How To Bake. I l like Bittman, but many of his bread recipes call for mixing and kneading in a food processor and I really enjoy kneading. I would have kneaded the sourdough by hand, but it was too wet - Bittman suggests you would not want to knead it by hand, so I didn't



It looks good on the outside


Looks pretty good on the inside....

But what happened to the flavor?

The "tangy" flavor of traditional sourdough breads comes from compounds released by bacteria which consume the byproducts of the yeast metabolizing the sugars in the flour (some commercial sourdoughs use artificial flavors). A aged "poolish" or "biga" like the one you tried doesn't have these bacteria; its main purpose is to maximize the flavor of the yeast. Commercial yeast strains have been selected to provide reliable rises over a wide range of conditions rather than to produce much flavor. Much of the acidity that you smelled was driven off during the baking.

That bread looks great.

A couple of thoughts: first, contrary to popular perception, good sourdough bread doesn't have an very sour flavor. It used to be that sourness was considered a flaw in the bread. Now you are likely to find sourdoughs with a hint of sourness. The sourness comes from acid in the starter. Too much acid (which comes from a starter that hasn't been fed in a few days) increases the sourness, but reduces the leavening power of the starter. Also, different strands of wild yeast and bacteria produce different flavors. So, don't assume you are doing something wrong because the bread isn't overly sour. Second, be sure you used enough salt. Bread can be pretty flavorless if you don't have enough salt. Third, most sourdough recipes call for a period called "retardation," where the load sits, chilled, between the first and second rises. (For example, my dough rises for about 4 hours, is shaped, rises/rests for about an hour, goes in the fridge over night, then comes to room temperature/rising again over three hours, and then is baked.) This rest builds flavor and slows down the fermentation process. I can't really tell if your description contained this retardation step. It is different from the main rising period.

Finally, I can't tell if your starter was really a sourdough starter or what's called a sponge. I'm not familiar with Bittman's recipe. (Contrary to popular perception, you can make a good starter with just flour and water. You don't need potatoes, grapes, etc.) Do you still have some of your original starter?

Here are a few other resources:

1. Nancy Silverton's "Breads from the La Brea Bakery". This is a great recipe book for sourdough breads. I make her basic country white load fairly regularly (it has white flour and wheat germ) and love it. This recipe is a great introduction to all of the techniques you'll use in the baking process. If you use this book, ignore her long process for building a sourdough starter. It requires way more flour than is necessary and leaves you with may more starter than any home cook would need.

2. "The Cheese Board: Collective Works: Bread, Pastry, Cheese, Pizza". This is a recipe book from one of my favorite bread bakeries, the Cheese Board in Berkeley, California.

3. The on-line sourdough lesson at eGullet: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=27634
This is a great tutorial and Q&A about sourdough baking. He recommends baking the load directly after it has spent the night in the fridge. The traditional technique is to let the bread come back to room temperature before baking. My own experience is that the loaf bulges out when it is baked cold, so I let it come to room temp.

The main thing is to practice and find a final loaf that you like.

Short version of what Darren said: you're using a newspaper recipe designed to make something quick and easy that is, in fact, slow and could take a lifetime to master. Warm, tasty bread is possible that way, great bread is a little harder to attain.

First off, it isn't as easy as open a tupperware container full of flour and wait for the perfect bacteria to drop themselves into it. The great sourdough yeasts around the world are tended and passed down for decades and even centuries because the magical, serendipitous culture that produces great French bread, say, is a rare and precious thing. Fortunately, there is a place to get such things; a guy named Edward Wood collects them from all over the world. I believe BillSFNM has used several of them and I use the French one (reputed to be 150 years old).

Second, I highly recommend a Nancy Silverton book, or a Peter Reinhart one, or something that really goes into the process of making bread. The 24-hour to several-day retardation step has a huge impact on both flavor and texture, and so do steps like very precise temperature management.

Hellodali wrote:This week, I thought I'd try sourdough. I used Bittman's recipe.

I l like Bittman, but many of his bread recipes call for mixing and kneading in a food processor and I really enjoy kneading. I would have kneaded the sourdough by hand, but it was too wet - Bittman suggests you would not want to knead it by hand, so I didn't?

I was just looking at the same recipe (in the veg cookbook) over the weekend and thinking that the sourdough sounded too good to be true. Thanks for letting us know how it turned out.

Bittman seems really, really obsessed with the food processor. I tend to be a bit low-tech as well and I don't think he gave a clear explanations of how to make yeast bread without a food processor in this cookbook. (He doesn't even like stand mixers, just food processors). Also, it seems strange that there aren't even approximate baking times for the bread. I'll try his food processor method but I'm glad I have my Fannie Farmer/Marion Cunningham and my King Arthur flour baking books for detailed explanations.

I'll give him this--Bittman has convinced me to get my food processor fixed after my dog chewed the (unplugged) cord five years ago.

I am a great believer in Peter Reinhart's The Bread Makers Apprentice. His recipes really work and his instructions are easy to follow.

Although I haven't done it yet I was looking at the sour dough starter recipes. According to Reinhart it takes at least 4 days for the starter.
Paulette

I also like Reinhart's book. I didn't list it in my list above because it is mainly about yeast doughs. But the sourdough section is good also. Silverton's book is only about sourdough (though some of her recipes supplement the dough with commercial yeast).

Regarding using the food processor or a mixer vs kneeding by hand. I like to kneed by hand, but usually I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I'm lazy. Some doughs that have a high ratio of water to flour are too wet and sticky to kneed by hand, and you have to use a food processor or stand mixer. Also, if you are considering buying a stand mixer, be sure to buy the 6 qt capacity or larger. The smaller "Artisan" mixer is simply too small and underpowered for most dough recipes, if find.

I also like "Artisan Baking Across America" by Maggie Glezer and "Local Breads" by Daniel Leader. I'd also suggest buying the starter per the suggestion above.

The starters from sourdo.com are so much better than any wild ones I have ever tried to capture. There are good reasons many of these cultures have been in use for a few hundred years (e.g., flavor and hardiness). I rotate through five of them (French, Camaldoli, Ischia, Austrian, and Russian). I doubt I would ever use commercial yeast again.

Bill/SFNM

Bill,

How do you maintain your yeasts between use? Do you keep a small sample aside in case you have yeast culture Armageddon?

As a small aside, years ago I was given Amish Friendship bread. I don't know why I even went along with this monster from the get-go, because I never really liked the bread it made. Yet for quite a while, I was feeding it on a regular schedule. I started to loathe it, that I finally let it die itself off. I know, that is what the garbage is for. However I couldn't quite let this living monster have an easy exit.

I think I am mature enough I can handle a yeast culture. I just don't quite grasp the practical aspect of its maintenance. (You'd think I was now old enough to have a dog)

Regards,

Bill/SFNM wrote:The starters from sourdo.com are so much better than any wild ones I have ever tried to capture. There are good reasons many of these cultures have been in use for a few hundred years (e.g., flavor and hardiness). I rotate through five of them (French, Camaldoli, Ischia, Austrian, and Russian). I doubt I would ever use commercial yeast again.

Bill/SFNM

That's where I sourced one of my starters, and I agree that this is better than trying to culture any of your own. However, I do have a question. Some places state that, over time, any sourdough culture will eventually revert to whatever strains of yeast and bacteria are naturally present in the environment in which they are kept. What I mean is that a San Francisco sourdough will eventually become a "Chicago" sourdough (or wherever you may happen to be). Do you find this to be true? On the one hand, it makes sense, but on the other hand, I would think that the cultured and healthy sourdough would "muscle out" any foreign strains of yeast and bacteria that are trying to invade. Does anyone know the microbiology behind this?

Binko wrote:
That's where I sourced one of my starters, and I agree that this is better than trying to culture any of your own. However, I do have a question. Some places state that, over time, any sourdough culture will eventually revert to whatever strains of yeast and bacteria are naturally present in the environment in which they are kept. What I mean is that a San Francisco sourdough will eventually become a "Chicago" sourdough (or wherever you may happen to be). Do you find this to be true? On the one hand, it makes sense, but on the other hand, I would think that the cultured and healthy sourdough would "muscle out" any foreign strains of yeast and bacteria that are trying to invade. Does anyone know the microbiology behind this?

As I mentioned above, the sourdo.com cultures, are very hardy and highly resistant to contamination from local interlopers. It is more about math than microbiology. Imagine a starter culture with millions, maybe billions, of strong, healthy members happily reproducing in what, for them, is an ideal milieu. A few locals that drop in for a visit would have to reproduce at an incredible rate to become more than a tiny part of the population. Population density curves are exponential. The locals don't stand a chance against a strong, healthy, and established population.

For many years I used a wild, local culture that I had captured when I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area. It wasn't very powerful, nor very hardy. I brought it with me when I moved here to Santa Fe. There is no question in my mind that over a period of about a year, the character did change. I ended up dumping that culture after discovering the ones from sourdo.com. They are so much better in every way.

Cathy2 wrote:Bill,

How do you maintain your yeasts between use? Do you keep a small sample aside in case you have yeast culture Armageddon?

Cathy2,

I do nothing between uses except keep them in the fridge. It is said that cultures left dormant in the refrigerator can remain viable for over six months. The longest I have ever neglected one is maybe 2 months. One important thing to do before storing in the refrigerator: give the culture another good feeding and allow it to sit at room temp for an hour or so. The result is a very strong culture with a high population density to withstand any stress from a long dormancy.

The practical aspects are easy to grasp, on par with caring for a potted plant, although I have killed many potted plants and never killed a starter.

Bill/SFNM

Bill/SFNM wrote:As I mentioned above, the sourdo.com cultures, are very hardy and highly resistant to contamination from local interlopers. It is more about math than microbiology. Imagine a starter culture with millions, maybe billions, of strong, healthy members happily reproducing in what, for them, is an ideal milieu. A few locals that drop in for a visit would have to reproduce at an incredible rate to become more than a tiny part of the population. Population density curves are exponential. The locals don't stand a chance against a strong, healthy, and established population.

I understand the math aspect of it, and it's evident in homebrewing where contamination is rather difficult if you get a vigorous fermentation going, but I'm wondering from a microbiological standpoint (as in, people actually analyzing strains of yeast over time) because I know that with things like beer, after, say, four or five generations of reuse, your yeast is quite different than what you've started with and no longer worth reusing. Breweries hire microbiologists to keep yeast cultures consistent, as they have a tendency to mutate over time. I'm wondering why this wouldn't apply to sourdough.

Binko wrote:

Bill/SFNM wrote:I'm wondering why this wouldn't apply to sourdough.

Even though they say that beer is liquid bread, I don't know nothin' 'bout brewing; I'll go back to the math. A single organism among billions mutates. What kind of reproductive advantage would it have to achieve to have any affect on the population? Domination based on random mutations is only a factor in unstable environments where the mutation facilitates survival and or reproduction in conditions that are unfavorable to the unmutated population. The environment in which bread cultures are maintained is very stable. The cultures we are using have thrived for hundreds of years. Have they changed over time? Can't say but thousands of people all over the world use these cultures with similar results with no intervention of microbiologists.

Bill/SFNM

Bill/SFNM wrote:

Binko wrote:

Bill/SFNM wrote:I'm wondering why this wouldn't apply to sourdough.

Even though they say that beer is liquid bread, I don't know nothin' 'bout brewing; I'll go back to the math. A single organism among billions mutates. What kind of reproductive advantage would it have to achieve to have any affect on the population? Domination based on random mutations is only a factor in unstable environments where the mutation facilitates survival and or reproduction in conditions that are unfavorable to the unmutated population. The environment in which bread cultures are maintained is very stable. The cultures we are using have thrived for hundreds of years. Have they changed over time? Can't say but thousands of people all over the world use these cultures with similar results with no intervention of microbiologists.

Bill/SFNM

Sure, but (I would assume) these cultures stabilize with the local yeasts. So you're culturing a yeast that is just a mirror of the yeasts in your environment. I don't know whether it's the case or not, but I assume part of the problem with reusing cultured beer yeast more than four or five times is not just mutations in the yeast, but picking up other yeasts that are naturally present in the environment. I'm just curious as to what the exact science behind all this is, because yeast is a fascinating creature to me. Just from experience, it seems to me that my two sourdough starters, which started out as distinctive in taste, are now very similar to me over the last two or three years. They work great, but they've certainly experienced a shift in flavor. It doesn't taste like the San Francisco sourdough I started with, but it doesn't taste like the sourdough I've made before using yeasts naturally present in rye. But it is different.

Cathy2 wrote:Bill,

How do you maintain your yeasts between use? Do you keep a small sample aside in case you have yeast culture Armageddon?

As a small aside, years ago I was given Amish Friendship bread. I don't know why I even went along with this monster from the get-go, because I never really liked the bread it made. Yet for quite a while, I was feeding it on a regular schedule. I started to loathe it, that I finally let it die itself off. I know, that is what the garbage is for. However I couldn't quite let this living monster have an easy exit.

I think I am mature enough I can handle a yeast culture. I just don't quite grasp the practical aspect of its maintenance. (You'd think I was now old enough to have a dog)

Regards,

Cathy,

Storing a starter is actually really simple. I keep mine in a mason jar in the fridge (I actually maintain three separate starters in three mason jars). When you want to bake, the first step is to activate a small amount of starter: first mix the cold starter in the jar. Then take a tablespoon and mix it with 1/2 cup of bread flour and 1/3 cup of water. Mix, cover with plastic wrap, and let sit for 12-24 hours at as close to 72 degrees as you can manage. (Closer to 12 hours if the temperature is higher, or if you are tired of waiting!) (Meanwhile, put the rest of the mason jar back in the fridge.) You can probably bake with this starter now, but I usually feed it one more time: take 1/4 cup of the starter and mix it with 1 cup of bread flour and 2/3 cup of water. Cover and let sit for 8-24 hours. Be sure your bowl is large enough to accommodate the starter as it rises. Discard (or use, or return to the mason jar) the remainder of the first night's starter.

When you jar in the fridge gets low, or if it's been in the fridge for a long time, then you probably want to replenish/replace it. Just follow the procedure above, but instead of using the starter, take 1/4 cup of it, mix with 1 cup of bread flour and 2/3 cup of water, and immediately put in the mason jar in the fridge.

So, the short answer is, keep the starter in the fridge and take out a little bit when you need it. It keeps a very long, long time. Don't worry if the stuff in the fridge separates - just mix it or just pour off the liquid part.

Note also that the directions above are not the only way to use and maintain a starter. I have a lot of books and I dare say that no two of them have the same procedure. One thing I've learned is that the starter is pretty resilient and forgiving. A lot of methods work. I don't always follow the procedure above - for example, sometimes I start with more starter, sometimes I use equal parts water and flour, sometimes I use equal parts starter, water, and flour, etc.

Thank you all for the advice and feedback. This has been very helpful. I think I was expecting the tang I get from commercial sourdough and basically I just made a decent if not great loaf. Not bad for my maybe 5th loaf of bread in 20 years. I'm going to put Reinhart's (sp?) book on my list to get ASAP.

Darren, is the retardation period helpful for all breads or just sourdough? And is the time flexible at all? If I make the dough the night before, let it rise the four hours then refrigerate it until the next evening after work then shape it, is that too long? While he doesn't mention retardation, Bittman wrote in his book that he often does the first rise overnight in the fridge, not the same thing, I'm sure. Again, thank you all for your wisdom and patience for a bread newbie.

With the French sourdough starter I've used, about two days' to five days' retardation seem to produce the best results in both flavor and bubble size. Beyond that they seemed to get big and I'd often get a misshapen loaf; one day was doable, but the bubbles were always tiny and the loaf a bit denser than desired. It may seem complicated to have to plan that far out for bread, but I got into a pretty good routine of making two loafs' worth of dough and then keeping them in the fridge, baking one a day or two later and the other 4 or 5 days later.

Incidentally, my starter seemed to go dormant about a month ago and I haven't had a chance to try reviving it until now. We'll see if it works, Nancy Silverton suggests it takes about three days to bring it back, we'll see. Otherwise, I may be going through the whole jerry-rigged incubator process again with a fresh batch from Edward Wood, which will be disappointing-- I'd hoped to keep it alive for a decade or two (and the kids were talking about keeping it too).

Mike G wrote:Incidentally, my starter seemed to go dormant about a month ago and I haven't had a chance to try reviving it until now. We'll see if it works, Nancy Silverton suggests it takes about three days to bring it back, we'll see. Otherwise, I may be going through the whole jerry-rigged incubator process again with a fresh batch from Edward Wood, which will be disappointing-- I'd hoped to keep it alive for a decade or two (and the kids were talking about keeping it too).

I doubt it will take long. As long as you gave it a good feeding before storing it, you may have to feed it a few times before it is back to full strength. I activate mine at ~80F and, for a starter that hasn't been used for a month, it may take 3-6 hours for the culture to double and about 2-4 hours for it to double again after feeding again. These little critters are vary resilient.

Bill/SFNM

Hellodali wrote:Thank you all for the advice and feedback. This has been very helpful. I think I was expecting the tang I get from commercial sourdough and basically I just made a decent if not great loaf.

Were you using Bittman's recipe from his everything vegetarian cookbook? If you are, then I can say with 100% confidence that the recipe you tried is not sourdough and you didn't do anything wrong. Darren mentioned a "sponge" (pre-fermented dough) and that's essentially what you made with Bittman's recipe.

He starts off the recipe by saying that "it's faster" -- realistically, a stable sourdough culture takes at least 3-4 days to make from scratch.

Try something like this instead:
Mix 1 cup whole rye and 1 cup water
Leave 8 to 16 hours at room temp in a loosely covered container
It will rise slightly and will smell stinky, but that's okay

After this you're trying to keep cultures alive by feeding on a schedule, about 5 to 6 cycles:
take 1/4 cup of the previous dough (discard the rest)
dissolve in 1/2 cup room temp water and mix in a scant cup of regular or whole wheat flour
It should rise considerably/double before the next feeding, anywhere from 8 to 16 hours, depending on your conditions.

If all goes well (a lot of things can go wrong, but keep trying), you'll end up with something bubbly, gooey, and sour-smelling after a few feedings:


Whole grain rye such as pumpernickel jumpstarts the fermentation for new starters. It has a lot of natural wild yeast that give sourdough its tang.
Bittman's recipe counts on natural yeast to take over the dough but it's very unlikely and not reliable at all. The commercial yeast culture dominated in your bread instead -- it does gives acidity, but not much, and is a completely different animal from natural wild yeast.

Hellodali wrote:Darren, is the retardation period helpful for all breads or just sourdough? And is the time flexible at all? If I make the dough the night before, let it rise the four hours then refrigerate it until the next evening after work then shape it, is that too long? While he doesn't mention retardation, Bittman wrote in his book that he often does the first rise overnight in the fridge, not the same thing, I'm sure. Again, thank you all for your wisdom and patience for a bread newbie.

Yes, the timing is flexible and your timing plan sounds fine to me. I haven't kept a dough in the retardation stage longer than 24 hours, but I would think you won't notice a great deal of difference between 8, 12, and 24 hours.

You are correct that "rising in the fridge" is different from "retardation in the fridge". A lot of people like to do a longer rise in the fridge with a commercial yeast dough because the longer rise helps develop flavor. Using a sponge (which it seems like you did) also helps develop flavor.

Also check out Alton Brown's Good Eats show and books - he does a nice segment on bread (using commercial yeast).

Other than long, cold retardations to help develop flavor, I have also read that lower hydration sponges (to the point where they almost resemble a soft dough rather than pancake batter) are ideal climates for the souring bacteria of sourdough starters to take hold. Here's one method with a low hydration dough, an overnight rise in the fridge, and an 80-90F proof that produces good results.

I doubt it will take long.

You were correct. Bubbly and overflowing in less than 24 hours. Yay, bread again!


File photo-- it won't actually look like this for a couple of days.

I happened to have some canned pineapple in the refrigerator due to making Hawaiian pizza last week, so today I attempted to make a sourdough starter using this unique method involving pineapple juice. Time will tell if it works.

I'm using a hinged crock without a rubber seal to store it.

Almost forgot to ask - does anyone test the temperature of their bread before taking it out of the oven?

Saint Pizza wrote:Almost forgot to ask - does anyone test the temperature of their bread before taking it out of the oven?

Sometimes. I often am not in the kitchen while the bread is baking and I can get easily distracted with other things. After the crust has set up, I insert a Polder remote probe into the bread and set the alarm for something around 185-205F, depending on the bread so that I don't forget about the bread.

For breads I make often, I really don't need to check the temp, but when I'm experimenting with a new formula or a new shape, I often check with a thermometer just to make sure it is not under-baked. Over-baking is less of concern since the crust will often burn before the innards are ruined. Thumping the bottom of the crust is NOT reliable for many dough formulations, IMO.

Bill/SFNM

I am not a bread-making expert by any manner of means, but I have been keeping a steady supply of the five-minutes-a-day dough in the fridge mostly since I first started it with Sparky a while back. One piece of advice that I've followed that worked: I don't clean the storage bowl between uses. This last time, I had to clean the bowl because I needed it for other uses, so I scraped out all the little drips of dough and refrigerated them, and added them to the next batch.

The small amount of wild critters this produces has given my breads a very gentle tang that I like a lot. Maybe not a per se sourdough, but it's definitely in the neighborhood.

I've discovered that it's not a good idea to make a starter and then leave town for a week. Sourdough starters don't seem to like me much anyway, so I think I'll take the beginner's route of using recipes that use a yeast-based poolish in which the entire batch is meant to be used the next day, as opposed to the ongoing re-feeding efforts of a traditional starter.

Here are a couple of recipes that use a sponge in entirety that may be good for beginners like me:

• ciabatta
• french country bread
• scali

Saint Pizza, did you leave the starter in the fridge while you were gone? Why do you say it wasn't a good idea?

Darren72 wrote:Saint Pizza, did you leave the starter in the fridge while you were gone? Why do you say it wasn't a good idea?

Unfortunately, I left it on the windowsill.

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I need some help with translating from Polish. Today I put together a sponge for rye bread to bake tomorrow, and to my surprise when I opened up a brand new bag of what I thought was rye flour, out poured white flour. Shouldn't it be brown? I got the package from Andy's Deli and it says "Maka Poznanska." Did I accidentally buy AP flour?