Diamonds and lumps of coal

Consider for a moment a menu. Each time we eat out, we are confronted with a menu> It masquerades as a simple declarative - here is the food we offer and the prices. But really it is a puzzle, presenting a series of riddles to answer and the hope of a delightful meal as a reward. Some may say there is only one question of any import and it is obvious - what do I want to eat. But for me, and I suspect for many here, the real question is - what is the best thing on this menu. It is a rare place where each item will be great, and while hunger and gluttonous lust for a particular dish or set of flavors can provide enjoyment despite mediocre ingredients and indifferent preparation, I like to think that I, and my fellow LTH'ers, are in search of something more than satiation of desire. Each meal cannot be a transformative experience, but I hope for a delightful one, and not just because I am satisfying the desire I brought to the table.

So the menu is a puzzle, and hidden within its often silly prose is a secret - the best meal to be had. How to tease out the answer? For me, it is a process that starts with a cold appraisal of the location, and the other diners if there are any to be seen. What would these people know and like? Admittedly I am working with stereotypes and generalizations at this point, but an understanding of the context of a restaurant's market is helpful.

At the same time, I try to figure out the place - how slick is it, how clean and fancy, who is in the kitchen, what is on the menu, what is the price point? Lots of educated guesses to help me find that sweet spot.

Next, I match that against the menu. Often I am trying to push the envelope and find the most exotic (to me anyway) dish that would be popular and done well in the place. At a recent meal just off the highway near Youngstown I found myself on a frigid Friday evening in a half full "Family Italian Restaurant and Pizzeria." Most, but not all, tables had pizza. It looked uninteresting to me. The menu offered an interesting selection of dishes and appetizers, too, but would these be like the often awful pasta and salad offered at many pizzerias, just so people that did not want pizza would have options? The price point was low, and there was the faint whiff of cheap food sold in volume, so I had doubts about the place.

In some cases I will just ask the waitperson what is popular (probably the best question), what is their favorite, or some variation on that. But then I am captive to that person's taste or, much worse, to their cold, commercial assessment of what I should be sold. And if I get the common reply, "what do you like?" I know it is a waste.

A better approach seems to be to pick one or more items off the menu and simply ask if they sell a lot of each. If the answer is no, move on.

As it happened on that cold night in Ohio, I did okay. There was roasted cod in a tomato and olive sauce with angel hair pasta (a bad sign?) in the House Specialties section of the menu that seemed almost out of place (for $10.95 with pizza bread and soup!), so I asked about it and was assured it was one of their most popular dishes. And it was definitely good, along with a bowl of wedding soup that can best be described as heavy handed, in a good way.

I do not keep track, but my feeling is that I am successful more often that not. Still, I miss quite a bit. Sometime, I am a victim of my own gluttony. My mind tells me that the rib eye will be gray, loaded with msg and a violation of my palate, but I am hungry, a rib eye (if not this rib eye) sounds good, and maybe my assessment is wrong, so I go ahead to my ultimate dismay, discovering that a quarter pounder would have been a better choice in every respect. Other times, the situation may be hopeless. By stepping into that place, I entered into a world without delight, or maybe one where my definition of delightful is not shared by anyone else.

How do you find the diamonds?

The other related question I often muse about, is when does a good meal make a restaurant a good restaurant? It is easy when a place only makes one thing and does it very well, or when everything on the menu is excellent, but that is fairly unusual (though not among LTH favorites of course).

All restaurants, like all people, have their strong points and their not so strong ones. How do you find the delight and avoid the disappointment, and when does that delight become enough to consider the place delightful and not just the dish?

Or maybe I am the only one who ponders these things. Naw, I am sure that is not the case here.

dicksond wrote:How do you find the diamonds?

Why, I read LTHForum, of course.

Seriously though, I like your characterization of the menu as a puzzle because that's often how I think of them. More often than not, I trust my considerable gut to lead me, especially when going into a place cold. Of course, that happens fairly infrequently these days, because even when I travel, I try to pre-research eating options available at the destination.

Short of that, though, I'll ask adjacent diners at destination restaurants where else they like to eat. I get a lot of mileage out of that approach. In the PNW last summer, for example, I had a few places I wanted to hit. When dining at those places, I chatted up my neighbors and ended up with some great suggestions.

In a completely unknown restaurant, I'll look around to see what others are ordering and what looks and smells good. I will also ask the server about the most popular items or their favorites. Related questions about whether a key component is fresh or frozen can also be a good guide. As I mentioned above, I also trust my gut. Sometimes a place just gives off a vibe that inspires ordering one thing over another. Sometimes it works out well, other times, not so much.

Specials can be a double-edged sword. At some places, specials are exactly that -- special -- and they can be a great way to go. They can be worth ordering because you know (or get the feeling) that the ingredients involved are fresh and were purchased specifically for making a certain dish (or series of dishes). OTOH, a special of salmon patties on a Monday would be a definite red flag. Again, this just comes down to undefinable instinct, which can lead to glory or failure.

Nice post, David.

=R=

What a great post!

I too often look over the menu, and wonder, what is REALLY good?

I tend to lean towards specials, feeling they are at least fresher...
Certain things, if they are on the menu, I tend to order like rabbit or lamb shanks, because they are so odd, that they are food of love.
They a long time to cook and cook well, and no chef really bothers with them unless he LIKES to cook them so if he likes to cook them he probably does them well.

At least thats what I think....

And I am attracted to "the weirdest thing on the menu"
...but that's just me
and anything foie gras

and no scallops
(unless I am on a sea coast-personal rule)

Especially on business travel, I experience the "Oh, I'm sorry, you did not choose wisely" moment after I receive the food I ordered.

Here's one rule I've found works: in Chinese restaurants, avoid items that have popular names (Kung Pao, General Tso) in favor of things described with long phrasing (a sign the name was translated from the original), like "Cantonese Dumplings with Spicy Peanut Sauce".

A better approach seems to be to pick one or more items off the menu and simply ask if they sell a lot of each. If the answer is no, move on.

A lot of times, if I've been going between several meals, I will ask the server what the recommend and more specifically if that doesn't set my answer, is what they sell the most of.

In some cases I will just ask the waitperson what is popular (probably the best question), what is their favorite, or some variation on that.

Interesting, because I hate that question. And I hate it even more when I ask "What do you recommend?" or "What is your favorite" and I get "Our most popular is" or "We sell a lot of..." as the answer. I'm surely a condescending pig, but I have a strong belief that most people have miserable taste. I do not want what's popular. If I wanted that, I'd go to Olive Garden and PF Chang's every night.

Kennyz wrote:

In some cases I will just ask the waitperson what is popular (probably the best question), what is their favorite, or some variation on that.

Interesting, because I hate that question. And I hate it even more when I ask "What do you recommend?" or "What is your favorite" and I get "Our most popular is" or "We sell a lot of..." as the answer. I'm surely a condescending pig, but I have a strong belief that most people have miserable taste. I do not want what's popular. If I wanted that, I'd go to Olive Garden and PF Chang's every night.

LOL! It's not the question that's the problem, it's the quality of the potential answer.

=R=

Kennyz wrote:

In some cases I will just ask the waitperson what is popular (probably the best question), what is their favorite, or some variation on that.

Interesting, because I hate that question. And I hate it even more when I ask "What do you recommend?" or "What is your favorite" and I get "Our most popular is" or "We sell a lot of..." as the answer. I'm surely a condescending pig, but I have a strong belief that most people have miserable taste. I do not want what's popular. If I wanted that, I'd go to Olive Garden and PF Chang's every night.

I agree and disagree Kenny. Yes, I do not want to dine as the masses do, but the most popular thing is also going to be fresh (see Ronnie's comment on Monday salmon patties above) and the kitchen will probably have it down. It is a question that is more about damage control than fine dining, since when I ask it, I have already decided that there is nothing really delightful on the menu, the kitchen may not do anything well, and I am prepared to settle for anything that would be fresh and competently prepared.

I do not tend to engage my fellow diners (introvert that I am at the core), and I should. Thanks for that tip, obvious as it should have been to me, Ronnie.

I have a few rules:

1. If eating sushi, always ask the sushi chef what you should be eating.
2. If I'm eating somewhere I've never been before I'll try to avoid anything I could get somewhere else (if it all possible). Meaning, if I go to a restaurant for the first time and there's just a standard "seared foie gras with [insert fruit here]" I'm not going to order it. One exception to this rule is if it's a famous/signature dish. The other exception is rule 3.
3. If at an Italian restaurant for the first time, I will almost always order linguini with white clam sauce. Not the most sophisticated thing, I know, but it's a benchmark dish for me. I will, however, always ask if the clams are served in the shell or out. If they are served out of the shell I will not order this dish.
4. I'm more than willing to ask a server what he/she recommends. If they responds by saying what they sell a lot of, I'll just ask again. More often than not you can tell from the recommendation if you should follow the server's lead or not. Generally the more exotic the recommendation, the more willing I am to take it.
5. If I'm eating with a group (say 4-6 people), I'll try to avoid ordering anything someone else is ordering.
6. If I'm someplace that I've trust or have been to a million times, I'm more than happy to skip looking at the menu and put myself in the chef's hands. The less thinking I have to do the better.
7. If it's dessert, and there's peanut butter, chocolate, and banana involved...disregard rules 1-6. I'm ordering it no matter what.

Doing your homework helps. Turns out that when you were in Y'town, you were mere minutes away from the Least Likely to Be Visited Recommended Restaurants to Actually Be Visited Based on Said Recommendation...

http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=4203 (See New Castle PA)

As you discovered, homestyle Italian is a very good call in that neck of the woods.

jesteinf wrote:I'm more than willing to ask a server what he/she recommends. If they responds by saying what they sell a lot of, I'll just ask again. More often than

I agree with the first part of your rule, but not the second. I like to ask the server what he recommends, because if he responds with what he sells a lot of, I know not to waste my time engaging him anymore. I'm on my own.

Kennyz wrote:

In some cases I will just ask the waitperson what is popular (probably the best question), what is their favorite, or some variation on that.

Interesting, because I hate that question. And I hate it even more when I ask "What do you recommend?" or "What is your favorite" and I get "Our most popular is" or "We sell a lot of..." as the answer. I'm surely a condescending pig, but I have a strong belief that most people have miserable taste. I do not want what's popular. If I wanted that, I'd go to Olive Garden and PF Chang's every night.

I'm curious -- what makes you think the waitstaff have more discerning taste than your fellow customers?

gleam wrote:

Kennyz wrote:

In some cases I will just ask the waitperson what is popular (probably the best question), what is their favorite, or some variation on that.

Interesting, because I hate that question. And I hate it even more when I ask "What do you recommend?" or "What is your favorite" and I get "Our most popular is" or "We sell a lot of..." as the answer. I'm surely a condescending pig, but I have a strong belief that most people have miserable taste. I do not want what's popular. If I wanted that, I'd go to Olive Garden and PF Chang's every night.

I'm curious -- what makes you think the waitstaff have more discerning taste than your fellow customers?

I don't. That's why I like to ask what they recommend. If they can say something at least moderately descriptive in answering, I'll have gathered some evidence that their opinion might be worth something. If, however, they say something like...

"The ________is really popular, we sell a lot of it." or
"The ________ is awesome. It's huge!" or, my favorite...
"How hungry are you?"

...then I know what to do.

JeffB wrote:Doing your homework helps. Turns out that when you were in Y'town, you were mere minutes away from the Least Likely to Be Visited Recommended Restaurants to Actually Be Visited Based on Said Recommendation...

http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=4203 (See New Castle PA)

As you discovered, homestyle Italian is a very good call in that neck of the woods.

Homework, ha!

This was a "drive back to college with your daughter road trip" so I was working on her schedule, and we did not know if we were taking I90 or I80 until we were almost at Cleveland. By then it was late, maybe 9pm, and bitterly cold. A brief web search looking for restaurants in Youngstown revealed little, except that Market Street in Warren, O seemed to have a lot of interesting possibilities on the east side of town, so off we went. Our first choice (Mexican) was closed (frozen pipes is my guess), so we ended up at Salvatore's Italian Grill. Turned out to be a lot better than it looked, and than it had to be based on other road trip Italian experiences in the upper Midwest and Northeast. I would not go out of my way to go back, but I would be quite happy if my path took me there again. I am pretty sure it was a better meal than we would have had at the Mexican place.

But yeah, I suppose I could have had some possible options on a list before I left. To be honest, I was half planning to stop at Barberton again for some fried chicken, but at some point I gave up on any form of planning.

Now there is a post in the wrong place to be of any use to anyone.

I suppose my strategy in the wilds of Ohio is to read the description in the menu and create in my mind's eye the worst-case scenario for that dish - and whatever dish is the least unpalatable in this scenario gets my order. It has served me well, except I do keep ordering biscuits and gravy - and have got what I deserved every time.

I hate to say it, but I've only been surprised by good food once in Southern Ohio. This is not to say I've not found good food - just never unexpectedly.

Kennyz wrote:

In some cases I will just ask the waitperson what is popular (probably the best question), what is their favorite, or some variation on that.

Interesting, because I hate that question. And I hate it even more when I ask "What do you recommend?" or "What is your favorite" and I get "Our most popular is" or "We sell a lot of..." as the answer. I'm surely a condescending pig, but I have a strong belief that most people have miserable taste. I do not want what's popular. If I wanted that, I'd go to Olive Garden and PF Chang's every night.

My Father-in-law cuts straight to the chase and always asks: "What do you sell the most of?"

Sigh...

go ahead and eat the $7 salmon patties on Monday, the salmon has now been poached and is therefore more shelf stable. Don't eat the Grillled Wild Caught Alaskan Salmon w/ ligonberry jus and celeriac puree for $32 on Monday, you're getting ripped off. And for gawd's sake don't eat the skatewing if you get a whiff of ammonia, and stick to Friday nights for the oiliest fishes, they harbor some nasty stuff. If it's bad, ALWAYS send it back.

and while I'm here, can somone explain Kobe beef burgers to me? I was under the apparently mistaken impression that the point of massages and beer was to produce extensive marbling, better than Prime, which leads to an exquisite texture, melt in your mouth, ohmygoditslikebutter experience. why would you grind that up? OK, some marketing genius came up w/ a use for the trimmings, sending the best parts to Japan, but someone needs to demonstrate that Kobe fat tastes better than choice fat, or select, or cutter, or canner. I'm personally fine w/ a little yellow tinge to the fat to indicate a final fattening w/ corn, tastes better than processed mash (aka beer) fed cattle, but hard to find anymore. Eat less beef, but eat better beef

Someday people will learn that they're mostly paying for the stemware and the waiter's suit. I'm sticking to the hot turkey sandwich on the special menu when I eat in unknown dinners. Cavatelli w/ rapini in homestyle Italian joints. Mongolian beef in Chinese restaurants. I know I'm not going to be disappointed. If it's high end, and the menu description sounds appetizing, it better damn well taste good because I'm shelling out the big bucks.
$16 for an 1&1/2 oz appetizer of one jumbo scallop, half of a chanterelle mushrooom and 4gms of sauce, it shouldn't be stinky.

These are all good suggestions. I'll add one thing that really works for me. When I enter a mystery restaurant, I'll be like the Terminator and scan all the tables as I'm being seated, paying careful attention to all of the food I see. That gives me a sense of what the food looks like coming out of the kitchen and will often give me a great clue as to what section of the menu I should concentrate on (or avoid).

go ahead and eat the $7 salmon patties on Monday, the salmon has now been poached and is therefore more shelf stable. Don't eat the Grillled Wild Caught Alaskan Salmon w/ ligonberry jus and celeriac puree for $32 on Monday, you're getting ripped off

I'm a fresh-food-freak, but unless I'm eating it raw, I actually prefer salmon with a couple of days of age on it. It's the only fish I say that about, but I really think the time helps bring out robust, pleasant, salmon flavor.

I've had some good luck asking "What does your chef make better than anybody else?"

The phrasing is unconventional enough that they have to stop and think about it for a second rather than simply answering out of habit, and I find it often gets me steered towards something a little more atypical that the chef does well, rather than universal crowd pleasers.

stevez wrote:When I enter a mystery restaurant, I'll be like the Terminator and scan all the tables as I'm being seated,

If steve ever walks up to you and says, "I need your clothes, your boots, and your motorcycle", I suggest you comply.

dk wrote:go ahead and eat the $7 salmon patties on Monday, the salmon has now been poached and is therefore more shelf stable.

Nah, if I want to eat leftovers, I'll stay home.

=R=

Kennyz wrote:

In some cases I will just ask the waitperson what is popular (probably the best question), what is their favorite, or some variation on that.

Interesting, because I hate that question. And I hate it even more when I ask "What do you recommend?" or "What is your favorite" and I get "Our most popular is" or "We sell a lot of..." as the answer.

If I can't make a clear choice, I like to ask my server what they would recommend. I usually give them a choice of two dishes. If they recommend the higher priced item, I take that into consideration before I make my decision. It usually works out pretty well for me.

However, that's not always the case. I was in Seattle a few months back, and I ate at a restaurant on consecutive weekends. On my first trip, I gave my waitress a choice of two desserts I was interested in. She heavily pushed the profiteroles, raving about them. I chose the bread pudding instead, and I was glad I did.

On my second visit, I got the same waitress. I wanted to sample more of the menu, so when it came to dessert, I said, "Well, I'll go with the profiteroles if you think they're that good." They weren't. When the waitress came by to leave the check, she asked me how I liked them. I told her that they were extremely ordinary and she apologized and mentioned that she had never had them, but they sell a lot of them. What????!!!! I was put off by that remark, but she was a good waitress and so nice (and easy on the eyes, as well!) that I left her a decent tip anyway. But the more I think about it, the more it pisses me off.

I don't think the profiteroles were the most expensive dessert (I think they were all basically the same price), but when I ask for a server's opinion, I expect an honest reply. If their answer is not a genuine opinion, but a reflection of what sells well, they should tell me that upfront. That was the only time that's happened to me. I'm a lot more cautious now than I was then.

Can't believe I didn't mention my other favorite -- sending the server back with instruction to ask the chef to send out whatever dish s/he's "most proud of".

Shows an interest in the chef's talent, bypasses issues of popularity, and usually ensures that you're getting one of the better items on the menu.

Of course, you have to be willing to take whatever comes out, but I like that it gets me to try things I ordinarily might not.

Other than research on restaurants, some quick research on ethnicity helps. For example, you probably dodged a bullet with the Mexican place in Y'town being closed. No Mexican anything in those parts until maybe the last 10 years, and the numbers/concentration just are not there yet (unlike other places with recent but robust immigration such as Atlanta) to sustain a recognizably Mexican place. Eg, decent tortillas and other ingredients are not very likely. Great for Y'town Mexican is not good Mexican, in my experience.

A small town with an Orthodox onion dome probably means you take a chance on the Ukie or Russian place; Sons of Italy on Main Street bodes well for the kind of spot you ended up. Chinese benevolent society, an Armenian church, a Serbian men's club, block of Korean body shops, whatever. Match the popular looking cafe to the ethnic guideposts. California and Florida, outside of the big cities, make this technique tough. In such places (like the burbs here) fall back to second and third-tier stripmalls and look for non-english signage, and patrons. Just don't go to the "Thai" or "Indian" or "BBQ" place in what looks like a high rent shopping center or (worse) a big stand-alone place in the parking lot of said center. None of these rules apply in Silicon Valley or vast stretches of SoCal where "ethnic" is an Anglo guy from Nebraska and disturbingly fancy strip malls can have terrific, authentic, one-off restaurants, especially Asian.

Then there's the basic, ask a fireman or a robust cop. I've had tremendously good luck in various cities in and out of the US with this, stumbling across places I later saw written up here. Sometimes they say Applebee's, in which case, you want to keep driving.

JeffB wrote:Then there's the basic, ask a fireman or a robust cop. I've had tremendously good luck in various cities in and out of the US with this, stumbling across places I later saw written up here. Sometimes they say Applebee's, in which case, you want to keep driving.

Yes, we asked this question about steak to the spouse's former co-workers and got "Outback." It helps to know how they cook, a question which is easily answered by following the fire engine to the grocery store. If it's an all-sausage-and-steak Fire Department, you're not going to get good information. (in Evanston, however, it's a good bet)

I forgot, I also use stevez's method, frequently being so bold as to channel When Harry Met Sally and say "I'll have what she's having." It's a good technique.

Dmnkly wrote:Can't believe I didn't mention my other favorite -- sending the server back with instruction to ask the chef to send out whatever dish s/he's "most proud of".

Shows an interest in the chef's talent, bypasses issues of popularity, and usually ensures that you're getting one of the better items on the menu.

Of course, you have to be willing to take whatever comes out, but I like that it gets me to try things I ordinarily might not.

I do a variant of this. I just ask "Is there anything in particular the chef recommends today?" That usually works well. The first time I went to Steve's Shish Kabob (when it was on 63rd St.) the waitress asked us if we had been there before. We said we had not, and that we'd like to try a variety of stuff, but we weren't sure what. She just took are menus away, asked if we have any food dislikes, and brought plate after plate of wonderful food. I love a place that knows what they're good at, and I wish I could just step into more restaurants and say "surprise me." That Steve's meal was one of my most memorable.