http://comedians.comedycentral.com/andrew-kennedy/videos/andrew-kennedy---food-monster

dollbabytina wrote:I don't think any sane person objects to a mother breast feeding her baby.

Mothers who want to correct the social stigma attached to breastfeeding are posting pix on Facebook of babies being fed a la tit. Warning: link contains pix of breasts and babies feeding.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/200 ... eeding.cnn

Pix have been pulled, reportedly due to complaints from Facebook community members.

I think the very essence of this long thread is about:

common sense (for those with children mostly, but maybe also those without)
maybe being a little flexible but putting things in context i.e. don't take yer screechy 18 month old to Avec or Mercat or maybe anyplace after 7 pm but don't freak if there's a family next to you when you go to have Udon at Sunshine
understanding/being sympathetic
cleaning up after your own if you have kids
not letting your little one roam wildly or in a way that is dangerous/obnoxious
being discreet or sort of discreet with your breastfeeding but not having to feel shamed or shoved to the bathroom

and . . . you get the point, mostly reasonable, honest and varied feelings about the weirdest, most unpredictable lot in the world: children. (Oh wait, I think Illinois politicians are now the most unpredictable lot).

Anyhow, I have just one question and it kind of goes all the way back to original post or the later posts which spit out the term "Breeders" like some sort of horrible tasting brew--what's up with the overt animosity towards um, breeders?

I am not a breeder because I have two boys. Both of my boys came by well, I don't want to go into the details here, but I am not a puppy mill. I mean, I get the snarky/nasty "you're immensely annoying to those of us without children" sentiment. Fair enough. I worked as a waitress for eons and on hands and knees picked up gobs of soggy Cheerios from the floor below the tables and proclaimed it many times to be "the most natural form of childbirth known to man". But lo and behold, it didn't stop me. From spawning or birthing a few rascals of my own.

And as far as the whole Breeder term goes, I think it it supposed to mean: affluent self-absorbed, white, heterosexual, smug, married couples who think of nothing but their children and their big fancy strollers and their kids. But I dunno, is that what it means? I so don't fit into that little prejudice box that I can't even wrap my head (or stuff my head) into it. In these tough situations I always try to fall back on humor, even very dark humor (which is how many parents/and non-breeding "breeders" get through the long nights and the awkward moments because shame and exhaustion have really never gotten anybody anywhere). But try as I might, I can't find any humor in the breeder comment. And most importantly I don't have any idea how it has any place in any sort of thoughtful discussion about food.

I also have friends, who you know, didn't um, er, "breed" to get their children since they are same sex couples or just can't make that sperm/egg thing quite collide, so I don't know if they are absolved or excluded from the underlying animosity.

I would hope that we could talk about parents and unpredictable kids and expectations in restaurants without the assumptions.

I have been involved in this forum since (yikes!) before I had kids. And while I have never gone to any of the events (I am shy this way) I have always felt so good knowing that families of all shapes, sizes, colors, ethnicities and wildly ranging palettes were bringing their kids along on eating adventures. I appreciate the "good, the bad and the ugly" tales from the front. Especially those on the road but also just here in town. So I hope that continues.

That's the spirit of lthforum that I enjoy. Not the nasty, thoughtless labels.

bjt

I'm reasonably certain the original poster is a breeder.

nr706 wrote:I'm reasonably certain the original poster is a breeder.

You are correct. Fwiw, David Hammond -- who started and named this thread -- is a 'breeder' himself and a proud father of 3. My guess is that he was just trying to be provocative/ironic when he initially used the term.

=R=

oh, shite, well okay (hey, where's my sense of humor?) but I still don't like the term breeder. Specifically, I didn't like how later in this thread on several occasions it did get tossed around like an easy, nasty thing.

bjt

I have to say I don't like the term "breeder" either. It's turned me off to participating in this thread. I don't have any children of my own, but I have three stepchildren, one of whom is developmentally disabled (Downs), and I have more nieces and nephews than I can count. And I recall at least some of what my parents went through to teach me and my six siblings how to behave at the dining room table and in restaurants. So the topic of parents and their children eating out is one that interests me. But the "breeder" term turns me off. We are not farm animals.

maureencd wrote:We take our son out to restaurants all the time, but we've had to ask for the check & hustle him out on more than one occasion. Nobody wants to listen to a screaming child when they're out to dinner. I'm with most of the posters, in that I think that taking a child to a restaurant is an excellent way to help him evolve from a nasty little animal into a civilized little man. That being said, if you're going to do it, you have to be willing to get up and leave at any time. Also, I think that it's only appropriate to pick up after the kid. Our guy loves to eat, and so is pretty well behaved at restaurants, but he still drops stuff all over the place.

I'm new to the "breeder"/parent crowd and not against taking my baby out to a restaurant. That being said, I also don't flex on common courtesy just because I have an infant. Nobody (including me) wants to listen to a baby cry or yell while paying for a meal - so if that happens, out we go, just box it up to go. Common courtesy.

I constantly remind my wife that we shouldn't expect other people to find our baby as cute or funny as we do. The same rules applied to our dog (pre baby). Dogs that walk around an lick/sniff/jump on people or bark are more often a nuisance, even though I may not mind typical dog behavior.

My suggestion is that if you bring a baby or a dog (or a drunken friend) to a restaurant or a bar, understand that any deviance of normal conduct should be a sign that it's your group that is potentially ruining an experience for everyone else. I don't care if you feel "entitled" to do as you please or if you're protected by law - the restaurant or bar is a social place, a community and if you can't figure out the rules of common courtesy, you shouldn't be there.

I know this is a little harsh but before baby, I couldn't stand listening to kids cry or watch them walk around, unsupervised, at a restaurant. I likened it to having my dog there, barking throughout dinner - nobody wants to hear that.

Oh yeah, and I despise the comment, "deal with it" as in - (paraphrasing) - I'm protected by law to nurse my baby anywhere I want, so you'll have to learn to deal with it. No, I won't deal with it. I'm also protected by law to swear in front of your children, talk about things only adults should hear and even though I would never do that (again, common courtesy), I wouldn't expect anyone to "deal with it." Yes, you can nurse anywhere you'd like but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be discreet while doing so. They have nursing garments, wraps, and such that are designed for this purpose. In my own opinion, I feel that if your body is releasing any liquids, it's probably a good time to excuse yourself from the table for a little while.

Parents who are oblivious to their surroundings or think that because they are parents, the rules change - that behavior is no better or worse than the behavior of the person that is over-served at the bar and talking/swearing loudly. Both are potentially disruptive to other people.

tyrus wrote:Nobody (including me) wants to listen to a baby cry or yell while paying for a meal

I disagree. If he's paying, he should be able cry however much he wants. With how much prices have gone up lately, who can blame the little guy.

My kids go to the total hippie mom school and even I don't see these mythical instances of gross boob-whipping-outitude.

Anything may be happening in the Bay Area, god knows, but in the sane midwest, it doesn't seem to be the problem painted here.

Babies are human beings. Dogs are dogs. They do not have the same rules. Thank you.

Mike G wrote:My kids go to the total hippie mom school and even I don't see these mythical instances of gross boob-whipping-outitude.

Anything may be happening in the Bay Area, god knows, but in the sane midwest, it doesn't seem to be the problem painted here.

I agree, I dont think I have ever seen it, or noticed it when I have been out.

As a side not, my pet peeve is the parents who allow their babies/toddlers in diapers to sit on surfaces where food is served(counters, tables, etc.)

abe_froeman wrote:

anniee8m wrote:Thanks for the suggestions, we are definitely quick to get breadsticks, crayons, paper all that stuff to kids right away, sometimes we place it at the highchair before the table has been sat. Kids food always comes out first, unless the parents request us to hold it for the rest of the meal. I am quick to offer assistance and ask parents if there is anything I can do to help them if their child is crying, etc. But what do you do when all those bases are covered and the parents continue with their meal with children screaming/throwing the crayons at other people and angry patrons glaring them down? That is the tricky part.

You could pull a Taste of Heaven.

This cat is my new hero.

In my own opinion, I feel that if your body is releasing any liquids, it's probably a good time to excuse yourself from the table for a little while.

Every time I read a comment like that, I'm reminded of this:

From Luis Bunuel's The Phantom of Liberty.

teatpuller wrote:Babies are human beings. Dogs are dogs. They do not have the same rules. Thank you.

You're welcome but you missed my point. I'm not actually comparing babies to dogs but rather what could be the annoyance factor by other diners when either are present and making loud, distracting noises.

Both are sometimes brought to restaurants/bars by their "parents/owners" and it's the "parents/owners" of both to manage in that particular social setting.

Owners of dogs are sometimes oblivious to their pets behavior - often tuning out the barking. All I'm saying is that parents can be equally oblivious to their child's behavior - able to tune out the little annoyances that everyone else may hear. Either way, it can be equally annoying.

Yes, you can nurse anywhere you'd like but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be discreet while doing so. They have nursing garments, wraps, and such that are designed for this purpose. In my own opinion, I feel that if your body is releasing any liquids, it's probably a good time to excuse yourself from the table for a little while.

just out of curiosity....why is discretion a big deal to you?

i agree with others who noted that it's a rare (if not completely non-existent) thing to see a woman just whip it out without attempting to move to a more private area or cover herself with a blanket.

but even if she didn't....why is that a problem for you?

personally, it's not something i see every day or am used to seeing, so there would be some reaction of surprise or caught-off-guarded-ness. but beyond that, i don't find it offensive or distasteful in any way. do you?

if your answer is 'yes', would you mind explaining why?

I find ugly people disturbing. They should cover their faces so I don't have to see them while I eat.

tyrus wrote:My suggestion is that if you bring a baby or a dog (or a drunken friend) to a restaurant or a bar, understand that any deviance of normal conduct should be a sign that it's your group that is potentially ruining an experience for everyone else. I don't care if you feel "entitled" to do as you please or if you're protected by law - the restaurant or bar is a social place, a community and if you can't figure out the rules of common courtesy, you shouldn't be there.

Oh yeah, and I despise the comment, "deal with it" as in - (paraphrasing) - I'm protected by law to nurse my baby anywhere I want, so you'll have to learn to deal with it. No, I won't deal with it. I'm also protected by law to swear in front of your children, talk about things only adults should hear and even though I would never do that (again, common courtesy), I wouldn't expect anyone to "deal with it." Yes, you can nurse anywhere you'd like but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be discreet while doing so. They have nursing garments, wraps, and such that are designed for this purpose. In my own opinion, I feel that if your body is releasing any liquids, it's probably a good time to excuse yourself from the table for a little while.

tyrus-

I'm nodding along in agreement with you. It personally disappoints me that today's American society feels like it needs to pass laws over every little thing relating to social interaction. And the problem I have with passing laws that relate to social behavior is that it is increasingly becoming is the easy way out and lets our society off the hook from navigating the gray areas which is where etiquette and common courtesy come into play. If society could successfully navigate these areas of etiquette and common courtesy (and I think it's becoming less able to do so), then laws protecting social behavior are less necessary. If all women breast fed in a way that was discreet and considerate of those around them would anyone even notice such that it ever became a problem requiring a protective law?

As a disclaimer: I don't have a problem with women who breast feed or those who do so publicly. I just don't want to see it. I especially don't want to see someone feeding a baby if I'm eating. I have friends who breast feed, and this has never been an issue when I'm around them but they are generally well-mannered people. Just like I don't like to eat around people with bad table manners or who talk with their mouths full, pick their noses or belch loudly. It's kind of gross. Now, if you can feed your baby discreetly -- i.e., in a way that brings no notice to your actions, then by all means do it; I don't have a problem with it. I don't think I'm being a prude or rude because I don't want to see someone else's nipple while I'm eating.

Agree Tyrus. It's all pretty simple. A little respect for the social contract goes a long way for us breeders, and everyone else.

(also, long live Kim Deal... hubba hubba)

elakin wrote:

Yes, you can nurse anywhere you'd like but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be discreet while doing so. They have nursing garments, wraps, and such that are designed for this purpose. In my own opinion, I feel that if your body is releasing any liquids, it's probably a good time to excuse yourself from the table for a little while.

just out of curiosity....why is discretion a big deal to you?

i agree with others who noted that it's a rare (if not completely non-existent) thing to see a woman just whip it out without attempting to move to a more private area or cover herself with a blanket.

but even if she didn't....why is that a problem for you?

personally, it's not something i see every day or am used to seeing, so there would be some reaction of surprise or caught-off-guarded-ness. but beyond that, i don't find it offensive or distasteful in any way. do you?

if your answer is 'yes', would you mind explaining why?

Personally, it takes a lot more than that to offend me but I'm not the benchmark I use when considering others' feelings; whereas I think many people feel that if it doesn't offend them personally (or if its protected by law), then they feel entitled to do as they please.

To be clear, nursing isn't my issue. My wife nursed but did it discretely in social settings out of consideration for other people. It's perfectly natural and human beings have been nursing for thousands of years (well, since forever). My issue is the general lack of consideration for others around you while you do something that you may well know could be off-putting.

I don't see nursing done a lot but the 2 times I've seen it in the last 10 years, it's been a conversation topic among the people I was with. Most of the conversations were not about the actual nursing but about the 'table manners' that the nursing mother lacked. Another poster mentioned belching, picking one's nose, and talking with your mouth full as other lacking social manners and I couldn't agree more.

Before smoking was banned in restaurants, I was also annoyed by the seemingly one person in our group that thought it was appropriate for them to light up after their meal without asking the party if they would mind.

All of this reminds me of Steve Martin's line, (to Steve Martin): "Sir, do you mind if I smoke? Steve M: "Why no, do you mind if I fart?"

I just don't want to see it. I especially don't want to see someone feeding a baby if I'm eating. ...I don't want to see someone else's nipple while I'm eating.

again, why?

and, more to the point, why do you believe that it's the responsibility of other people to make sure you don't have to see certain things that bother you?

why do you believe it's ok to expect someone else to make an effort they might not otherwise have made just because you "don't want to see" something while you're eating?

i seriously don't understand the sense of entitlement that goes along with this.

as someone above noted, would you feel entitled to ask an ugly person to cover their face while you were eating? how about someone with lots of acne? or expect really obese people to move away from you while you're eating? let's not forget--nursing involves another human being eating as well. why should your eating trump theirs? why should they have to eat in a stinky bathroom or under a blanket?

this phenomenon is something i have referred to in the past as "exporting uptightness". those that are made uncomfortable by one thing or another somehow feel that it's ok to expect/require others to ensure that they will not be confronted by the things that make them uncomfortable.

blows my mind, it does.

My issue is the general lack of consideration for others around you while you do something that you may well know could be off-putting.

see, that's what i'm after. *why* do you find it off-putting?

everyone finds something off-putting. if we all had to adhere to the standard of making sure we shield others from things they may find off-putting, we'd all drive ourselves crazy in the process.

There's an easy way to avoid seeing someone breast feed: don't watch them. Attend to the business at your own table.

No one has mentioned the real problem, which is that the baby is often fed before the rest of the table has been served. Where have the rules of etiquette gone?

elakin wrote:again, why? this phenomenon is something i have referred to in the past as "exporting uptightness". those that are made uncomfortable by one thing or another somehow feel that it's ok to expect/require others to ensure that they will not be confronted by the things that make them uncomfortable.

blows my mind, it does.

I think that, despite your protestations of innocence and confusion, you understand perfectly well why someone else would be uncomfortable with *obvious* public breastfeeding at the table. Just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't also mean that you lack the capability to understand why someone else would be put-off by it. I think someone once said something along the lines that, etiquette is taking into account others' feelings even when you disagree with them. You can either be considerate of others, or you can label them as being "uptight," wrong and "people who are entitled to something," but then nobody's getting along.

The analogies to ugly people or people with acne, etc. are faulty -- there are things you can help and things you can't help.

elakin wrote:

My issue is the general lack of consideration for others around you while you do something that you may well know could be off-putting.

see, that's what i'm after. *why* do you find it off-putting?

everyone finds something off-putting. if we all had to adhere to the standard of making sure we shield others from things they may find off-putting, we'd all drive ourselves crazy in the process.

Read it again. I (meaning ME) don't find it off-putting but others may, as indicated on this board. If you want to ignore their views or feelings, by all means go ahead. I choose to respect others' feelings if I'm the one that may potentially upset them or distract them from the meal for which they are paying.

The issue is NOT nursing, it's etiquette. Yes, everyone finds something off-putting and there are issues such as this that walks the line between the pro/con groups. It's obviously controversial as are other topics in our society. In company, I would choose to avoid controversial subjects out of consideration for those around me.

I guess that's where you and I differ. So be it.

aschie30 wrote:etiquette is taking into account others' feelings even when you disagree with them.

I don't care if I offend a bigot of one kind or another. IMO a woman can feed her baby any damn where she pleases..under a sheet or not. Maybe you can take account of my feelings.

Edited to add: I'm not calling anyone here a bigot. The point is I am not going to cater to someone who I find intolerant/irrational. This is one of those issues where the two sides will never agree, so no sense in arguing about it.

I just get shy when someone does that in front of me. In general don't want to see my dining companion flash her breast. Then it becomes a question of, where do I look while we finish up our conversation?

Pie Lady wrote:Then it becomes a question of, where do I look while we finish up our conversation?

Don't stare at the nipple. Don't stare at the nipple. Don't stare at the nipple.

Nipple.

Nipple.

Nipple Nipple Nipple.

AUGH!!!

I think that the reason that it can be off-putting is that, for better or worse, naked female breasts are not something that one normally sees in public places. I dont think that many people are uncomfortable with the concept of the baby eating, it is more the concept of public nudity, no matter how justified. That is why a bit of discretion is called for. There are lots of things available for nursing mothers to use to be discreet. It is just a matter of common courtesy.

-Will