Cathy2's friend wrote:I think one element that I like is the absence of Ginger.

In find in Chinese-chinese restaurants, the Chicken in chowmein comes in some sort of wet mushy coating, which is NOT the way I like it. I need to be able to tell the waiter what to delete to get the style of food I crave. Who can explain this to me?

Cathy,

Now that Hi Howe is gone Kow Kow, as Michael mentioned, is the undisputed king of American/Jewish/Cantonese with another serious contender being Steve Z's recommendation of China Chef in Morton Grove.

Having grown up on weekly Jewish suburban Chinese food, I'd slightly disagree with your friend as to basic elements. To me the differentiation has always been more crunch, less sweet in Jewish/Cantonese.

As far as not liking the "wet mushy coating" simply request, as I often do, either light or no cornstarch gravy. Problem solved.

Michael, great Hong Kong steak pic. Also, very interesting Eat Chicago blog entry on Kow Kow's egg rolls.

Enjoy,
Gary

Kow Kow Restaurant
6755 N. Cicero Ave
Lincolnwood, IL 60712
847-677-7717

China Chef
5920 Lincoln Ave
Morton Grove, IL
847-967-6050

When it comes to food, I normally consider myself a purist; All this fusion crap for fusion sake has really started to annoy me. However, it's ironic that there's a part of me that loves Americanized Chinese Food since I have full Chinese blood but was born and raised here. Sometimes you just can't deny how good something really tastes.

Although I haven't really tried most of the Americanized Chinese Food in Chinatown, there's a place called Wing Yip not far from there by me that makes some amazing- what I call- bastardized Chinese dishes. I'd recommend their fried rice, chicken chow mein (with the real chinese pan-fried noodles and not those small fried watchamacallits that aren't noodles), and their awesome Shrimp Egg Foo Young. I don't know how they make their gravy but I suspect they use some kind of Chicken stock base. The place looks rundown as all hell and probably hasnt been remodeled or decorated since the day it opened (I think more than two decades ago). If you go, try combo B (Fried Rice and Egg Foo Young) for I think $2.68.

BTW, can anybody tell me who General Tso, Tao, or Tsao is? He must be the Chinese equivalent of Colonel Sanders to have the honor of a Chicken dish named after him.

Wing Yip Chop Suey Restaurant
(312) 326-2822
537 W 26th St
Chicago, IL 60616

sinos wrote:BTW, can anybody tell me who General Tso, Tao, or Tsao is? He must be the Chinese equivalent of Colonel Sanders to have the honor of a Chicken dish named after him.

Wikipedia page on General Tso.

According to that page, there is some dispute as to whether General Tso's chicken originated in Hunan or New York.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't Hunan. Thanks.

Actually, the resource on the origin of General Tso's chicken (which discusses the Hunan v. NYC origin theories) is here. The other page linked above is just about General Tso himself.

I think that Chinalite on Southport has some of the best Egg Rolls that I've ever had! Although their fried chicken-and-sauce dishes tend to be pretty nasty (General Tso's, Sesame, etc...) their "non-fried meat" dishes are all pretty decent.

They also have the added benefit of some of the cheapest beer in town, $2-3 for "Imports" such as Goose Island

Chinalite
3457 N. Southport
(773)-244-0300

I LUV China Star in Niles!



China Star Restaurant
8105 N. Milwaukee
847-966-6611

JeanneBean wrote:I LUV China Star in Niles!

OK. You've given us the where now give us the why.

I may sound like a bit of a broken record around here lately, but, why do you love it? Are there particular dishes that they do better than other places you've tried? What makes this place so beloved by you?

Best,
Michael

Are any of the numerous Chinese buffets in the city and nearest burbs worth eating at? Sometimes I want beef with broccoli and good old General Tso's and sesame chicken...

Evan B. Druce wrote:Are any of the numerous Chinese buffets in the city and nearest burbs worth eating at? Sometimes I want beef with broccoli and good old General Tso's and sesame chicken...

I would say no because none of the buffets make these dishes on demand. They're usually prepared beforehand so you don't get it while it's hot. Plus, quality always tends to deteriorate when things are mass produced, food included.

I avoid Chinese Buffets at all costs.

Eater beware.

Jay K wrote:Interesting article. The only Asian family I know that "used to" use MSG in their home-cooking was my Japanese in-laws. As touched on by the article, I know some of the "higher end" Chinese restaurants (primarily encountered in my experience in Hong Kong and Vancouver) will attempt to obtain "umami" from using stock made with scallops (dried or fresh), shrimp, lobster, crab or other expensive seafoods to, for example, cook their "steamed rice" which is later used to make fresh fried rice w/ other "fancy" seafood ingredients or to blanch greens. My mother typically used dried scallops, dried shitake, at times large dried shrimp to obtain "umami" for dishes - often vegetable/tofu dishes.

As far as I know, most Korean restaurants make liberal use of msg. My wife, however, considers such a concession beneath her, and she too uses an assortment of dried seafood and mushrooms to infuse her jigaes and such with umami.

Truth be told, I sometimes prefer the umami taste of straight msg.

I cannot believe that nobody has mentioned the ultimate in American Chop Suey, which is served a couple times a week at Manny's Coffee Shop on Jefferson in the city.

What makes it 'American', as advertised (in italics no less) on the backlighted menu board? Hell if I know---all it is, is pretty darn good chow (no pun intended), from the chunks of pot-roast-style beef to the large celery chunks to the button mushrooms to the canned bean sprouts, all mixed in a darkly rich sepia-colored sauce, served piping hot over white rice (I like the rice on the side, as they're in serious need of a rice cooker).

A picture would not do this dish justice--it would probably look somewhat disgusting, but it just tastes fresh & is very satisfying.

My family ate msg for years growing up. Korean stews, soups, kimchi...basically everything but the white rice requierd some msg in my household. So I not only know the taste of msg, but can feel it instantly the minute it touches my stomach lining.

Msg tastes like msg, period. Initially Japanese companies and later Korean companies began producing and distributing msg en masse throughout their respective countries, but all over China and South & SouthEast Asia. What I've learned eating home cooked meals and generic restaurant food in South Korea, is essentially that MSG is very easy to cook with and produce a consistent taste with.

However, unless you've washed your palatte of msg for atleast two to three weeks, you cannot taste the food underlying the msg very well. Imagine sprinkling msg on Unagi sushi. That would be a crime against the sea. Likewise, after giving up msg purposely a few years ago I've found deeper, more subtle differences in taste in dishes even from the same cook. I don't really buy into cancer talk or other medical concerns over msg. What I do care about is the skill of the chef on display. And honestly, I don't think a real cook, American, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, or Indonesian needs msg to work the depth of taste, subtlety of texture, and richness of any sauce or dish he/she prepares.

And please don't tell me American Chinese food cannot be prepared by Chefs. I don't discriminate against any fusion of cuisine, especially ones daring enough to leave out the French.

Gary and Michael,

I think you may have hit the issue this person was concerned about on the head. A few months ago, I went to Kow Kow specifically to try their eggrolls. That is one huge Mother of an eggroll. It reminds me very much of this Antoinette and Francois Pope eggroll recipe I posted an adaptation in March.

I have forward him these links to read.

Thanks! That Hong Kong Steak really looks wonderful.

Regards,

G Wiv wrote:I will admit to an occasional, as once or twice a year, at most, foray to Hong Kong Buffet on McCormick, between Lincoln and Devon, but that's mainly based on the fact they have a pretty decent chili oil.

It's been a few years, I was in the mood for chili oil was out of my home made, Sun Wah is closed on Thursday and didn't feel like making the drive to Chinatown so Hong Kong Buffet won the toss and my belly lost.

Trough feeding for hungry sheeple, no flavor, even the chili oil was one dimensional over bright and boring, no eye contact, no spark, just a bunch of humans on fill fooling themselves they were eating real food, much less Chinese food.

I would have been better off at Panda Express across the street.

Note to self, do not rinse, do not repeat.

Enjoy,
Gary

North Suburban Jewish Chinese is one of my favorite food aberrations.

I enjoy Wing Hoe for all of my NSJC (note that while it is not physically located in the 'burbs, it's clear where its spiritual home lies) needs. I know feelings about this place are mixed, but Wing Hoe has always provided the fried, coated, and sauced meats that I find so comforting on a cold day. Kow Kow does a better egg roll, but I've never encountered anything else there I found at all edible, so it's Wing Hoe for me.

On the subject of authenticity: a friend of mine who lived in China for years (near Beijing) claimed that the most authentic items you can find on a standard Chinese menu are sweet and sour pork and walnut shrimp. Who knew?

Wing Hoe
5356 N Sheridan Rd
Chicago, IL 60640
(773) 275-4550

Any body who found this thread interesting should read "The Fortune Cookie Chronicles" by Jennifer 8. Lee. Very interesting book about this very topic Written by a Chinese American journalist.
Also on a side bar I just finished "The United States of Arugula" by David Kamp which is all about the American Food Revolution, Is also a must read for any food.

Growing up, before LTH, I used to go to SFBTH (second floor big three happiness), and have me some tasty (American) Chinese food. These were great and will always remain in my memory, as being a comfort food, of sort. Every once in a while, I will gather up a group of people and have us some, "twisted Chinese food."

Now, I am being introduced/investigating authentic Chinese cuisine (here or on the mainland). I appreciate the dedication to perfecting the authenticity of a dish or cuisine, but I find it more interesting that (Chinese) chefs are still Westernizing dishes (e.g. Double Li's, Black Pepper Beef).

Here is a 16 minute video presentation, about an author/reporter about her hunt for the origins of familiar Chinese-American dishes.Check it.

Garlic black pepper beef isn't westernized. I used to eat it all the time at Bellagio in Shanghai. It came out on a sizzling iron plate. It's really a Taiwanese dish.
http://shanghaibunny.blogspot.com/2007/11/bellagio.html
I don't see a picture of the exact dish, but this is the place.

Bellagio
68 Tai Cang Rd
Shanghai

That video presentation is fabulous! I thought Chinese fortune cookies were French in origin, though - a version of the tuile. Has anyone else heard of the Japanese connection before?

The most american of all the chinese spots that I'm aware of has to be Orange Garden. I'm a third generation fan so totally biased. It should be experienced.

joeyb708 wrote:Any body who found this thread interesting should read "The Fortune Cookie Chronicles" by Jennifer 8. Lee. Very interesting book about this very topic Written by a Chinese American journalist.
Also on a side bar I just finished "The United States of Arugula" by David Kamp which is all about the American Food Revolution, Is also a must read for any food.

I stumbled across Jen-8 being interviewed by Dean Richards on 720 this weekend and initially thought she was an uninformed caller - nobody should be that inarticulate (and, from the content I heard, unsure on some subjects, like the date and place of origin of chop suey) on a topic they've written a book about. May have just been a bad day, or some rust, since the current release is the paperback. Chinese-American or no, I'd rather read Rene G. here on the subject any day.

Santander wrote:

joeyb708 wrote:Any body who found this thread interesting should read "The Fortune Cookie Chronicles" by Jennifer 8. Lee. Very interesting book about this very topic Written by a Chinese American journalist.
Also on a side bar I just finished "The United States of Arugula" by David Kamp which is all about the American Food Revolution, Is also a must read for any food.

I stumbled across Jen-8 being interviewed by Dean Richards on 720 this weekend and initially thought she was an uninformed caller - nobody should be that inarticulate (and, from the content I heard, unsure on some subjects, like the date and place of origin of chop suey) on a topic they've written a book about. May have just been a bad day, or some rust, since the current release is the paperback. Chinese-American or no, I'd rather read Rene G. here on the subject any day.

Made me Google.

nicinchic wrote:Garlic black pepper beef isn't westernized. I used to eat it all the time at Bellagio in Shanghai. It came out on a sizzling iron plate. It's really a Taiwanese dish.
http://shanghaibunny.blogspot.com/2007/11/bellagio.html
I don't see a picture of the exact dish, but this is the place.

Bellagio
68 Tai Cang Rd
Shanghai

Perhaps, but Double Li's version seems to have been westernized, as it is cooked with butter and garnished with broccoli.

"Westernized" these days has postcolonial implications, as in, McDonalds in Seoul*, universal appreciation of The Michaels (Jackson and Jordan), Barbie, designer business suits (not just military garb), the raifurain (though note that some gairaigo terms are colonial, like pan), and hip hop. I'm not saying this term is accurate or particularly meaningful, just that when most Americans use "Westernized," they're thinking "in the modern international era."

Ben Li's garlic beef tenderloin, sauteed in garlic butter after its marinating and double-frying, is a well-known dish which probably has more to do with the French Concession (1849-1943) in Shanghai than young Chinese chefs copying methods from the Cordon Bleu today. Dividing out China's colonial history to try to determine where "authenticity" or "originality" starts is a futile excercise. I agree with nicinchic that "Westernized" is a poor term for dishes like this unless one is allowing for Western contact predating there being a nation called "China." In that case, though, you might as well go back to Alexander and the Tarim, because it's been there forever. And conversely, please enjoy some good "Easternized" bucatini the next time you're at your favorite Italian restaurant.


* yes, McD's has been argued by some to be a form of non-state-sanctioned colonialism

Santander wrote:* yes, McD's has been argued by some to be a form of non-state-sanctioned colonialism

I just call it crap for short.

Santander wrote:"Westernized" these days has postcolonial implications, as in, McDonalds in Seoul*, universal appreciation of The Michaels (Jackson and Jordan), Barbie, designer business suits (not just military garb), the raifurain (though note that some gairaigo terms are colonial, like pan), and hip hop. I'm not saying this term is accurate or particularly meaningful, just that when most Americans use "Westernized," they're thinking "in the modern international era."

Ben Li's garlic beef tenderloin, sauteed in garlic butter after its marinating and double-frying, is a well-known dish which probably has more to do with the French Concession (1849-1943) in Shanghai than young Chinese chefs copying methods from the Cordon Bleu today. Dividing out China's colonial history to try to determine where "authenticity" or "originality" starts is a futile excercise. I agree with nicinchic that "Westernized" is a poor term for dishes like this unless one is allowing for Western contact predating there being a nation called "China." In that case, though, you might as well go back to Alexander and the Tarim, because it's been there forever. And conversely, please enjoy some good "Easternized" bucatini the next time you're at your favorite Italian restaurant.


* yes, McD's has been argued by some to be a form of non-state-sanctioned colonialism

So then what would be a more appropriate term/phrase for "Westernized?"

yellow truffle wrote:

Santander wrote:"Westernized" these days has postcolonial implications, as in, McDonalds in Seoul*, universal appreciation of The Michaels (Jackson and Jordan), Barbie, designer business suits (not just military garb), the raifurain (though note that some gairaigo terms are colonial, like pan), and hip hop. I'm not saying this term is accurate or particularly meaningful, just that when most Americans use "Westernized," they're thinking "in the modern international era."

Ben Li's garlic beef tenderloin, sauteed in garlic butter after its marinating and double-frying, is a well-known dish which probably has more to do with the French Concession (1849-1943) in Shanghai than young Chinese chefs copying methods from the Cordon Bleu today. Dividing out China's colonial history to try to determine where "authenticity" or "originality" starts is a futile excercise. I agree with nicinchic that "Westernized" is a poor term for dishes like this unless one is allowing for Western contact predating there being a nation called "China." In that case, though, you might as well go back to Alexander and the Tarim, because it's been there forever. And conversely, please enjoy some good "Easternized" bucatini the next time you're at your favorite Italian restaurant.


* yes, McD's has been argued by some to be a form of non-state-sanctioned colonialism

So then what would be a more appropriate term/phrase for "Westernized?"

Ben told the Reader he thinks it's "fusion" from Chengdu (Sichuan, which makes some sense):

http://blogs.chicagoreader.com/food/tag/Ben%20Li/

But similar sweet twice-fried beef was a staple in Shanghai, which was the portal to the Sichuan interior, especially after the 20's, and it appears in many other places in the country as well. Tony's Three Chili chicken at LSC is not so different - his execution achieves singular results, but he just didn't invent the dish out of whole cloth. It's informed by several culinary threads in Sichuan.

I'm not trying to mince words the way Tony minces the chilis, and if Ben called his beef "Westernized," I'd capitulate. Hard Rock Cafe and TGI Fridays have certainly westernized Red Square and Harajuku Park, and I argue that this is just not the same thing as self-generating cooking like Sichuanese. But I still struggle with this conception - I have no problem with "Americanized" for things modified here. It's the unactualized anthropologist in me speaking up on the sticky postcolonial Westernized/Easternized terminology. Screw the conduits of Marco Polo* and Cortez for noodles and tomatoes, respectively. When you're eating bucatini alla Amatriciana, you're not eating "globalized Ameri-Chinese;" you're eating Italian food that developed in a town with influences from a broad trading network. Everything interconnects.

*I use this conceptually, not literally; pasta has a much more complicated history

Mr. Pie and I returned for our second meal at Mee Mah (4032 W. Peterson Ave.) last weekend, and it was quite enjoyable, with near Lin's-quality egg rolls.

Can I get people in this thread to give me some North Side Americanized Chinese restaurant recommendations? If you're at all familiar with New York, I'm looking for something akin to Ollie's. I want greasy stuff like General Tso's and Sesame Chicken and Beef with Broccoli. To be clear, I want something that is good and satisfying, even if it makes my stomach unhappy. I've had a really hard time finding this in Chicago and takeout, cheap Americanized Chinese was always my childhood go-to on a rainy day.