Da Beef wrote:Which one dont you like?

I've never really been a fan of Carm's. I mean, it's OK (it's certainly not Beefee's bad), but it's not on the same level as a number of the other places in your list.

I just tasted Carm's for the first time about a year ago (kind of out there in the desolate region). I've been back 3 times since and I like it because of the fact its kind of a roast beef flavor. Another interesting thing about them is they have two different types of giardianara or at least they have on my visits. The first time it was like itis in the pic below and the second time they had this beautiful light green mixture with tons of celery and jalapenos which I'm a sucker for and prefer to the carrots, green olives and cauliflower additions. I think Carms is most similar to a homestyle roast beef. It has a very beefy gravy and is cut a little thicker than most. Not the best but I think its better than most and without a doubt better than Beefies.



During my beef journey to document and snap photos of every place that specializes in beef in Chicagoland I have come across a place that I have never heard of but will be hitting up soon. Anyone ever been to this place pictured below located out near Midway airport? Its the definition of a neighborhood dive as its old and crumbling and it connected to a house where I assume the owner lives and its enclosed by family houses. What not too like? an Italian beef bar! sure looks intriguing, soon enough.

I think Da Beef's description of Carm's IB is spot on. My recollection is that they offered their bottled giardiniera in more than one level of heat.

ListenerCh wrote:A beef has to have peppers!!!

Without the peppers the beef is too one-dimensional and boring. I have no idea how and why some people eat it without giardinera, but I know plenty of people who do.

I consider myself an Italian Beef fan, so much so that I actually conducted an IB blind taste test for kicks and giggles with 9 of my closest IB loving friends. I enjoy the beef without hot peppers and sometimes actually prefer a really nice sweet pepper in place of the giadinera.

I'll admit that there was a time in my life that I put hot peppers or hot sauce on everything, so much so that it basically killed the taste of whatever I was eating and all I tasted was "hot." The hotter the better at some point in my past - hot wings, chili, giadinera, you name it - "mild giandinera? please! hot and more hot on the side!".

Then, something happened and I turned into someone that wanted to taste the actual food. I cut back in all aspects of seasonings, sauces, dips, condiments and gave up life long addictions to hot sauce, ketchup, bbq sauce and the like. Maybe it was a general food movement but whatever it was, I really stopped ordering the IB with hot peppers and then started to notice the difference in the actual beef. My quest was "quality" - the fresher or more homemade (without extra stuff) the better. Simple foods. I even started picking off sport peppers off of my hot dog - not all - but most and really got to taste the dog and which elements contributed to the flavor and which ones masked the flavor.

That being said, I appreciate the actual IB as a sandwich, not the vehicle for giandinera. At our blind taste, we sampled all beefs plain first and then added the peppers so that it wouldn't distract from the actual taste of the sandwich.

I still like good giandinera but I use much less of it. I don't really like foods that are "hot" just to be "hot" because I think the heat sometimes overwhelms the dish. I look for complimentary flavors and balance and have almost "reset" my taste buds a little. I still get sport peppers on the hot dog but only keep one or so. I still put hot sauce in my mac-n-cheese but not the scorching stuff. I still use bbq sauce, albeit sparingly and usually dip the meat into the sauce instead of the other way around. And I have stopped putting ketchup on my burgers.

I can enjoy an IB without giandinera but can also see why some like/need it. It does add texture and a nice acidic quality to balance the fat in the beef. But if it's too hot, well then it just is too hot. Hell, occasionally, I will order one "hot" but it'll most likely be on the side.

Tyrus said:

I still like good giandinera but I use much less of it. I don't really like foods that are "hot" just to be "hot" because I think the heat sometimes overwhelms the dish. I look for complimentary flavors and balance and have almost "reset" my taste buds a little.

I had planned to post a comment on this but Tyrus said it better than I could have. These days I've cut back substantially on heat and am enjoying my food as much as before, perhaps more.

George R wrote:Tyrus said:

I still like good giandinera but I use much less of it. I don't really like foods that are "hot" just to be "hot" because I think the heat sometimes overwhelms the dish. I look for complimentary flavors and balance and have almost "reset" my taste buds a little.

I had planned to post a comment on this but Tyrus said it better than I could have. These days I've cut back substantially on heat and am enjoying my food as much as before, perhaps more.

Im going to have to disagree. The hottest giardinara from any of the good beef joints comes from Johnnies and that is the only spots hot pepper mix that will sometimes make my lips burn. I also love hot food but its still not that hot. I love heat but hate when something is so spicy that its almost like a game show gimmick. The peppers do not take away any type of flavor from the beef because they are too hot but rather almost make it an Italian beef as opposed to a roast beef. I enjoy the celery and oil and it makes the taste better than just plain old roast beef sandwich.

I wouldn't consider the hot peppers from Al's, Chickies, Pop's and all the beef shacks that make their own too hot to eat or so hot they take away flavor. Heat from peppers is flavor whether its mild hot or hell hot. Does real Jamaican jerked chicken lose its real flavor due to the heat? no its part of the flavor and without it would be a whole nother flavor experience but not jerked chicken. A beef without hot is still an Italian beef but the reason Italian giardianra is so popular and available so readily is because it became so popular on beefs. In my opinion an we all have our own, it belongs. C'mon are sport peppers really hot? maybe I just can stand heat better than most. Also I dont know of any places that pile the peppers on so much that you cant taste the meat. Most just add enough to get a few in every other bite or so.

George R wrote:I think Da Beef's description of Carm's IB is spot on. My recollection is that they offered their bottled giardiniera in more than one level of heat.

Yes, it was the extra hot that they kept hidden behind the counter that finally made the Carm's sandwich at least acceptable to me on the Beefathon. Maybe it's the thicker cut of the beef that I object to. I think it tends to make the beef taste drier. Of course, that's just my opinion (based on many years of beef eating). There are plenty of people who love Carm's.

Da Beef wrote:The peppers do not take away any type of flavor from the beef because they are too hot but rather almost make it an Italian beef as opposed to a roast beef. I enjoy the celery and oil and it makes the taste better than just plain old roast beef sandwich.

An IB without peppers just tastes like a plain old roast beef sandwich? Really?

ucjames wrote:

Da Beef wrote:The peppers do not take away any type of flavor from the beef because they are too hot but rather almost make it an Italian beef as opposed to a roast beef. I enjoy the celery and oil and it makes the taste better than just plain old roast beef sandwich.

An IB without peppers just tastes like a plain old roast beef sandwich? Really?

Well not a roast beef sandwich like you got in your brown bag for school at lunch or Arby's but pretty damn close to a homecooked roast beef. I'm Italian so when my grandma made roast beefs it was always with the Italian seasoned gravy and served with sliced fresh Gonnella bread to soak up the gravy. Its the super thinly sliced beef and and the Italian style giardianra that make it a Chicago Italian beef but again thats just for me. Im not saying its unacceptable to not get hot peppers on a beef like it is to get ketchup on a hot dog but rather that it just completes a good beef in my book. If a place has bad hot peppers or real cold canned stuff thats been in a fridge all day (Novi's and Tony's in Westmont) it ruins the whole beef for me. But when they have amazing beef paired with top notch homemade peppers it makes the beef. But when a place has outstanding giardinara and not so great beef it can help disguise that fact and make the beef a little more desirable than it would be without it so I understand where your coming from.

Sounds like we're ready for a separate thread on the role of heat in taste.

To me heat is a lot like salt in that it intensifies existing flavors. Too much salt or too much heat can overwhelm a dish, but the right blend can enhance.

Of course, giardiniera - like salsa - is much more than heat alone, being a complex mix of ingredients. Similarly, hot sauces have their own distinctive flavors (I have a liking for Tabasco), and these days people are looking into the flavors of different kinds of salts.

As always it comes back to personal preference.

i agree, good post.

personally, the reason i enjoy giardiniera on a beef is the brightness added by the vinegar, the crunchy contrast of the veggies to the soft mushy bread and beef, and the flavors (separate from the heat) that the giardiniera bring to the mix.

most giardiniera isn't very spicy at all. to me, at least.

elakin wrote:i agree, good post.

personally, the reason i enjoy giardiniera on a beef is the brightness added by the vinegar, the crunchy contrast of the veggies to the soft mushy bread and beef, and the flavors (separate from the heat) that the giardiniera bring to the mix.

most giardiniera isn't very spicy at all. to me, at least.

I agree. For me it's the vinegar in the giardiniera that is indispensable to the proper balance of flavors in an Italian beef. It's the grace note that takes a decent sandwich over the top. Sweet peppers just don't it for me. I'll do a sweet & hot mix, but never sweet alone, as it just adds this mushy, green pepper taste that, by itself, I don't like. The IB needs that hit of vinegar, exactly in the same way I like a vinegary finishing sauce on my pulled pork. As for heat, I don't find giardiniera hot at all, but hot giardiniera or mild giardiniera, I need one or the other for the perfect IB experience.

Da Beef wrote:Im going to have to disagree. The hottest giardinara from any of the good beef joints comes from Johnnies and that is the only spots hot pepper mix that will sometimes make my lips burn. I also love hot food but its still not that hot. The peppers do not take away any type of flavor from the beef because they are too hot but rather almost make it an Italian beef as opposed to a roast beef. I enjoy the celery and oil and it makes the taste better than just plain old roast beef sandwich.

I wouldn't consider the hot peppers from Al's, Chickies, Pop's and all the beef shacks that make their own too hot to eat or so hot they take away flavor. Heat from peppers is flavor whether its mild hot or hell hot. Does real Jamaican jerked chicken lose its real flavor due to the heat? no its part of the flavor and without it would be a whole nother flavor experience but not jerked chicken. A beef without hot is still an Italian beef but the reason Italian giardianra is so popular and available so readily is because it became so popular on beefs. In my opinion an we all have our own, it belongs. C'mon are sport peppers really hot? maybe I just can stand heat better than most. Also I dont know of any places that pile the peppers on so much that you cant taste the meat. Most just add enough to get a few in every other bite or so.

You can disagree but it's not about if anyone's right, it's about personal preference. I like the taste of giandinera but sometimes don't "need" the heat at all. It sounds like many people here aren't looking for the heat either but rather the crunch/vinegar/acid to balance the beef. We're not so dissimilar.

I think heat is something for which you build a tolerance. I'm not as tolerant as I used to be, mainly because I don't find "heat" for heat's sake all that appealing anymore. How hot a certain place's giandinera is depends on the taster. My wife can't stand spicy foods and sport peppers are way too hot for her. Same with hot giandinera - she wouldn't eat it. I'm somewhere in the middle now but still order Thai, Cajun, etc. I can't go for the "hottest" and don't care to; I guess my philosophy on food has shifted a little.

I do agree with you that a hot giandinera could easily mask a bad beef. Maybe that's why I'll only eat a beef at a few places. I found it interesting that you said Johnnie's is the only place that has peppers that may burn your lips. So many people (including me) have considered this "the" place for an IB. In my blind taste test, tasting just the sandwich, no peppers, it was among the bottom three (on a very impressive list of nine IBs). Perhaps with the peppers, it's a better sandwich.

something i often recommend to beef 'newbies' is that, if they don't want the giardiniera, they at least drizzle the giardiniera "juice" over the beef. it's a pretty good work-around for those more sensitive to spice or those that just don't want all those veggies on their sandwich.

Hi,

I remember reading this tip some years ago: At places that charge for giardiniera, you could often get the giardiniera 'oil' or 'juice' drizzled on for free.

I have not personally asked, though it could still be true.

Regards,

I have been going to Carm's since Carm was alive and running her store on Cicero. I go back regularly for the great sandwich, as well as for the nostalgia factor. They feature a variety of giardinieras. There's the hot and mild, and the one that I prefer, the chopped, relish style. It is not too hot to distract from the flavor of the sandwich, but it does give you a good peppery kick. Very tasty indeed.

Da Beef wrote:During my beef journey to document and snap photos of every place that specializes in beef in Chicagoland I have come across a place that I have never heard of but will be hitting up soon. Anyone ever been to this place pictured below located out near Midway airport? Its the definition of a neighborhood dive as its old and crumbling and it connected to a house where I assume the owner lives and its enclosed by family houses. What not too like? an Italian beef bar! sure looks intriguing, soon enough.

If you really intend on sampling every Italian beef then I suppose you are doomed to eat at Coppolino’s. I can only hope your experience is better than mine (an old, brief report can be found here). The bartender took a Tupperware bowl out of the refrigerator, gave it a few shakes, scooped out some beef onto a roll (taken from a plastic bag in the refrigerator) and stuck it all in the microwave. I’ve eaten Italian beefs at quite a few places—certainly more than a hundred—and Coppolino’s was one of the very worst. Good luck!

Rene G wrote:

Da Beef wrote:During my beef journey to document and snap photos of every place that specializes in beef in Chicagoland I have come across a place that I have never heard of but will be hitting up soon. Anyone ever been to this place pictured below located out near Midway airport? Its the definition of a neighborhood dive as its old and crumbling and it connected to a house where I assume the owner lives and its enclosed by family houses. What not too like? an Italian beef bar! sure looks intriguing, soon enough.

If you really intend on sampling every Italian beef then I suppose you are doomed to eat at Coppolino’s. I can only hope your experience is better than mine (an old, brief report can be found here). The bartender took a Tupperware bowl out of the refrigerator, gave it a few shakes, scooped out some beef onto a roll (taken from a plastic bag in the refrigerator) and stuck it all in the microwave. I’ve eaten Italian beefs at quite a few places—certainly more than a hundred—and Coppolino’s was one of the very worst. Good luck!

I had a feeling you had been there. Maybe one day but I will say that if its worse than Beefies than it could ruin my whole love for beef so maybe its not worth it. When I said from over 100 places I meant from the spots that specialize in beef and not places that happen to just serve it. Ive sampled 100's and 100's but as I grew up I came to learn unless the place has a specialty in beef and makes their own its not worth getting and even when they do its still sometimes not worth it. In fact if its worse than the beef from Fiore's deli than Im going to have to skip it. Along with Max's they have been by far the worst beefs since I started snapping photos of them. Sorry to whoever suggested this thing is good, I dont mean to be a beef snob but WTF?!?!?! where have you been eating Italian beef?


This was sliced deli roast beef dropped into a bouillon based gravy where it sat until it became elastic.

oh, yeah. i've had my share of those. when you see that rainbow-colored reflection thing going on, that's a good tip. run away.

On a positive note, I enjoyed a great beef sandwich Saturday, thanks to an earlier LTH poster. I was in the LaGrange area and decided to try Little Joe's at Plainfield and Manheim (abutting a Nancy's/Al's franchise). Great, tender beef with a flavorful gravy and tasty, homemade giardiniera. the place was packed with happy diners and a terrific staff. As I left, I looked into the much bigger Al's/Nancy's with their four diners. Lottle Joe's has been there since 1970. It is nice to see3 the little guy take it from the franchise guy.

thick wrote:On a positive note, I enjoyed a great beef sandwich Saturday, thanks to an earlier LTH poster. I was in the LaGrange area and decided to try Little Joe's at Plainfield and Manheim (abutting a Nancy's/Al's franchise). Great, tender beef with a flavorful gravy and tasty, homemade giardiniera. the place was packed with happy diners and a terrific staff. As I left, I looked into the much bigger Al's/Nancy's with their four diners. Lottle Joe's has been there since 1970. It is nice to see3 the little guy take it from the franchise guy.

Yes Little Joe's is very good and one of my favorites. I wish it were closer to my place.

Da Beef wrote:Its the super thinly sliced beef and and the Italian style giardianra that make it a Chicago Italian beef but again thats just for me. Im not saying its unacceptable to not get hot peppers on a beef like it is to get ketchup on a hot dog but rather that it just completes a good beef in my book..

I love beef arguments...In 500 years people will still be discussing Italian Beef as if it is Dante's Inferno.

Question. Ketchup on beef?

iblock9 wrote:Question. Ketchup on beef?

I'm fairly certain my reaction to that was similar to that of the staff at Johnnie's when a co-worker my dad took their to grab lunch one day asked for cheese on his beef.

Although, really, ketchup is even more horrifying to me in this context, I think. Not sure. I need to go grab a drink.

Question. Ketchup on beef?

what's the question?

if the question is "should you be barred from the entire chicagoland area for even suggesting putting ketchup on an IB?", my answer would be that you deserve another chance, provided you publicly announce that you've seen the error of your ways.

i have zero patience for places that try and put marinara sauce on a beef sandwich. ketchup? god help us.

elakin wrote:if the question is "should you be barred from the entire chicagoland area for even suggesting putting ketchup on an IB?", my answer would be that you deserve another chance, provided you publicly announce that you've seen the error of your ways.

I was hoping to get some strong opinions when posing this question Since I am already on record declaring that I like ketchup on a combo, i guess I will continue to hide my perverse ways in shame.

iblock9 wrote:I was hoping to get some strong opinions when posing this question Since I am already on record declaring that I like ketchup on a combo, i guess I will continue to hide my perverse ways in shame.

I like ketchup myself, not Hammondesque love of ketchup, but I've been known to drift a forkful of scrambled egg or a teaspoon or two in chicken soup, but ketchup on an Italian Beef is just, well, it's just odd. Not just odd, but more than just a whisper of ketchup would mask the IB flavor. Think I'll stick to giardiniera.

Enjoy,
Gary

iblock9 wrote:
Question. Ketchup on beef?

I think putting ketchup on a beef sandwich is similar to putting kethup on a hot dog, something you wont see me doing. Give me extra giardinera on mine.

Growing up in Park Ridge, my whole family regularly ordered the dry IB at Wally's Gyros. My older brother usually added some ketchup to his beef when he forgot to ask for cheese and marinara. I did the same thing for some time, and it tasted good. However, thinking back, it's as if I had never eaten an IB before I went to Johnnie's and ordered one sweet, hot, and juicy.

Wally's
1006 N Northwest Hwy
(between Fortuna Ave & Vernon Ave)
Park Ridge, IL 60068

G Wiv wrote:ketchup on an Italian Beef is just, well, it's just odd.

I can live with odd

iblock9 wrote:

G Wiv wrote:ketchup on an Italian Beef is just, well, it's just odd.

I can live with odd

Hear, hear!!