The Missing Comma: The Deviltry of Menu Punctuation

I was dining with some friends at La Tache, the Andersonville bistro. On the specials list we read:

Saffron, Shrimp and Crab Risotto
Black Tiger Shrimp, Jumbo Lump Meat cooked with Saffron infused Arborio Rice, Rendered Sopresata Grana Cheese, and topped with Lobster Roe Salt.

My companion, a Muslim, does not eat pork, but thought (without checking) that this dish seemed nice and porkless. There was no comma between Rendered Sopresata and Grana Cheese. (Not to mention that Sopressata is typically spelled with two S's). Now of course, it might be argued that if faced with "bacon cheese," she might have suspected that the cheese was filled with porky deviltry, but still the recipe had both salami and cheese and to someone not familiar with Sopressata, the description of the dish didn't appear to have meat (granted, I have never heard of rendered cheese). [Lobster roe salt is not lobster roe and salt, we were told, but lobster roe salt].

When she discovered that the dish contained pork, she called the server over and the chef appeared, apologizing and - eventually - providing another dish.

And if one wanted to be picky - which, after all, is the point of this post - La Tache claimed to serve Creme Brulee with "Berries." Berries in Andersonville turn out to be one large strawberry (although of ripe and sweet).

The bistro food at La Tache is good quality bistro cuisine, but one would imagine that there are enough English majors, now unemployed, who could be hired to proofread menus.

I think the problem is that the people who write this stuff (not just menus, but many restaurant websites as well) think they know how to write. They don't see the errors, and therefore they don't see the need for a proofreader. For a couple of favorite restaurants, I phoned and told them their websites were a mess, and that out of love, I'd edit or rewrite and send them new copy, and they've used it. But most people have no idea there's anything wrong. It looks great to them. (Also, they probably don't want to raise the price to accommodate the cost of a proofreader/editor -- not realizing that at least a few of us would gladly do the task for a good meal.)

The comma's not missing, it's just misplaced before the word "and".

Hi,

My pet peeve has always been the impossible ingredient coupled with a changing spelling.

"Herb stuffed poussan[sic] with melted fennel sauce."

I believe that the fennel was melted with acetone!

Tim

stevez wrote:The comma's not missing, it's just misplaced before the word "and".

I do believe that commas are grammatically correct in both spots. There should be a comma before the word and.
Also, in the "name" of the dish, there should be another comma before the word and:
Saffron, Shrimp, and Crab Risotto.

seebee wrote:

stevez wrote:The comma's not missing, it's just misplaced before the word "and".

I do believe that commas are grammatically correct in both spots. There should be a comma before the word and.

Not generally. Usually, the comma is left off of the last word in a list. "Nice, quiet, beautiful and wonderful" is the correct syntax.

stevez wrote:Not generally. Usually, the comma is left off of the last word in a list. "Nice, quiet, beautiful and wonderful" is the correct syntax.

Well, depends on the grammar "authority," I suppose. I believe the Chicago Manual of Style, Strunk and White, and most/many other American English authorities suggest that usage of the serial/Oxford/Harvard comma (the comma following the penultimate word in a serial list) is the preferred form.

But really, who gives a f$%& about an Oxford comma? (Link warning: Profanity!)

I must suggest that we keep the politics of serial commas out of our boards.

Regarding the OP -- Your companion should ask more questions in general: a lot of food, especially Northern Italian, starts with rendered porky products.

Being married to an English teacher, I've become rather sensitive to various errors on menus. They are certainly more common in those places where English is not their native language, but are found just about any where. I've often suggested that my wife offer her services as a proofreader of such things.

Lately in my editing, I've noticed the comma being obsolete and it drives me bats. People are using em dashes instead, or more annoyingly (if that's a word), the Word em dash: written like - this.

Pie Lady wrote:Lately in my editing, I've noticed the comma being obsolete and it drives me bats. People are using em dashes instead, or more annoyingly (if that's a word), the Word em dash: written like - this.

Years ago, when I taught grammar, I'd inveigh against the dash, but now I use dashes regularly -- though sparingly -- specifically in pairs to add emphasis to a phrase or clause that would otherwise be flanked by suspension commas.

Cynthia wrote:But most people have no idea there's anything wrong.

My biggest pet peeve is when I see people start sentences with a conjunction (and, but, and or). I understand that it’s considered “acceptable” by most people these days, however I’m not one of them. If you were to remove the conjunction all together you would see that it’s either not necessary, or there is another word that would work far better. I spent nine years (K- 8th) in a VERY strict Catholic grammar school in Evanston where the nuns wouldn’t let us write in the “conversational” format (or speak poorly for that matter, I still have nightmares about being smacked with a ruler). When I see people (including my oldest brother that writes for a newspaper in St Charles) start a sentence that way, the writer’s credibility drops a great deal with me.

Just my .02

I believe in the Condiment Theory of Punctuation. I sprinkle commas over my writing as if they were salt.

MikeW665 wrote:

Cynthia wrote:But most people have no idea there's anything wrong.

My biggest pet peeve is when I see people start sentences with a conjunction (and, but, and or). I understand that it’s considered “acceptable” by most people these days, however I’m not one of them. If you were to remove the conjunction all together you would see that it’s either not necessary, or there is another word that would work far better. I spent nine years (K- 8th) in a VERY strict Catholic grammar school in Evanston where the nuns wouldn’t let us write in the “conversational” format (or speak poorly for that matter, I still have nightmares about being smacked with a ruler). When I see people (including my oldest brother that writes for a newspaper in St Charles) start a sentence that way, the writer’s credibility drops a great deal with me.

Just my .02

I was taught by extremely strict English teachers as well. I have given up on this conjunction rule in casual writing, although <snicker> I do try to search for the replacement word. The rule where I was taught was exactly that. "If you do start a sentence with a conjunction, read your sentence again, and you will figure out what word you are really searching for." It is true each and every time. My absolute madness about punctuation/grammar is the apostrophe. It has gotten so far out of control. I'm sure I've posted this somewhere else, but I actually saw this street sign while living in Denver:

No Left Turn's

This was not a handmade sign, it was totally legit, hung high atop a stop light in whatever Dept of Transportation format.


There was an article a few years back in the trib magazine that I have not been able to find. I wanted to read it so badly. I think it was a half humorous thing called, "The Bastardization Of The Apostrophe."

The comma after the last word in a list thing was DRILLED into our heads. We were not allowed to use incorrect punctuation. It was not tolerated. We were not allowed to move on to the next punctuation mark until everyone in the entire room knew every rule about the previous punctuation mark. And if you did not know how to read using vocal inflection, then you would stand up in front of the class and read each part of all of the new lessons until you DID. I felt kinda bad for the foreign kids who had trouble with English, but, they sure learned quickly.

Yes, I know that I should have* used the word "Also" and followed it with a comma in that sentence.

*Anyone notice that a lot of people write "should of" these days? The correct word they are looking for is a contraction of the words "should" and "have" to form the word should've.

seebee wrote:The comma after the last word in a list thing was DRILLED into our heads. We were not allowed to use incorrect punctuation. It was not tolerated. We were not allowed to move on to the next punctuation mark until everyone in the entire room knew every rule about the previous punctuation mark.

I had a similarly strict English teacher and the "NOT using a comma after the last word in a list thing" was drilled into our heads as well. So I guess the use of a comma before the word and is open to interpretation, however you'll never see me using one.

seebee wrote:And if you did not know how to read using vocal inflection, then you would stand up in front of the class and read each part of all of the new lessons until you DID. I felt kinda bad for the foreign kids who had trouble with English, but, they sure learned quickly.

Note comma error in above.

Overly stern grammars can induce in students a tendency toward hyper-correction of perceived errors.

stevez wrote:

seebee wrote:The comma after the last word in a list thing was DRILLED into our heads. We were not allowed to use incorrect punctuation. It was not tolerated. We were not allowed to move on to the next punctuation mark until everyone in the entire room knew every rule about the previous punctuation mark.

I had a similarly strict English teacher and the "NOT using a comma after the last word in a list thing" was drilled into our heads as well. So I guess the use of a comma before the word and is open to interpretation, however you'll never see me using one.

And you will probably always see me using one.

More importantly, we both like a good, hot, spicy, and oily giardiniera.


Oh yeah, and your English teacher was wrong!

David Hammond wrote:

seebee wrote:And if you did not know how to read using vocal inflection, then you would stand up in front of the class and read each part of all of the new lessons until you DID. I felt kinda bad for the foreign kids who had trouble with English, but, they sure learned quickly.

Note comma error in above.

Overly stern grammars can induce in students a tendency toward hyper-correction of perceived errors.

Good one - I wrote that how I would have inflected it, (with a pause after the "but") and even thought about using caps for that "but." I could also see not needing a pause, and rattling off the whole string.

seebee wrote:Oh yeah, and your English teacher was wrong!

You could be right. She also felt that saying "Hello" when picking up the phone was redundant.

GAF wrote:Saffron, Shrimp and Crab Risotto
Black Tiger Shrimp, Jumbo Lump Meat cooked with Saffron infused Arborio Rice, Rendered Sopresata Grana Cheese, and topped with Lobster Roe Salt.

[Lobster roe salt is not lobster roe and salt, we were told, but lobster roe salt].

Misspelings, misplaced, commas I can deal with (and on menus it's usually not that much an issue (for me) - but on professional media services: papers, television, etc. I find it unprofessional).

But (take that you start of a sentence!) whatever is lobster roe salt !?!
(and how bout dat punctuation)

edit: Oops! discovered in proof - forgot to punctuate the end of my my post, so here it is

Comma Smackdown!

stevez wrote:

seebee wrote:The comma after the last word in a list thing was DRILLED into our heads. We were not allowed to use incorrect punctuation. It was not tolerated. We were not allowed to move on to the next punctuation mark until everyone in the entire room knew every rule about the previous punctuation mark.

I had a similarly strict English teacher and the "NOT using a comma after the last word in a list thing" was drilled into our heads as well. So I guess the use of a comma before the word and is open to interpretation, however you'll never see me using one.

In journalism it is not used to save space. Otherwise it is recommeded per the Chicago Manual of Style, which is considered the grammar bible.

why do I know this? my wife is an editor.

Funny that this discussion arose the day after National Grammar Day.

FWIW, use of the serial comma was firm policy for my former employer. Omitting it was, in no uncertain terms, a mistake.

Ah, here’s a thread after my own heart. Years of reading college students’ papers have left me unable to read anything without finding errors in punctuation or grammar. I can’t seem to turn that little proofreader in my head off. GAF’s example is a nice one, of the sort I collected when I was teaching, of why punctuation matters. In the case of his friend’s understanding of the menu, an error in punctuation made a difference in the real world!

I always use the serial comma but would never mark its absence as incorrect. I fear that the apostrophe is doomed; its misuse is rampant. (The semi-colon is my favorite punctuation mark.)

Alas, if we limited ourselves to perfectly correct menus, we’d be eating at home every night!

seebee wrote:

David Hammond wrote:

seebee wrote:And if you did not know how to read using vocal inflection, then you would stand up in front of the class and read each part of all of the new lessons until you DID. I felt kinda bad for the foreign kids who had trouble with English, but, they sure learned quickly.

Note comma error in above.

Overly stern grammars can induce in students a tendency toward hyper-correction of perceived errors.

Good one - I wrote that how I would have inflected it, (with a pause after the "but") and even thought about using caps for that "but." I could also see not needing a pause, and rattling off the whole string.

Interesting-- I've been seeing commas after "but" a lot more lately.

It's weird when you get old enough that you see the language change. One change in spoken English that's been happening since maybe the 90s: people using the pluperfect when they mean the past. Someone just said to me: "So-and-so had left me a message." I was waiting to hear what happened next but no, that was just the past tense as far as that person was concerned. I'm seeing it in writing now too.

That menu description is incredibly unclear. Having to read through through a list of dishes with the ingredients run together like that would make ordering much more difficult. I can't imagine it makes the server's job any easier either.

bibi rose wrote:It's weird when you get old enough that you see the language change. One change in spoken English that's been happening since maybe the 90s: people using the pluperfect when they mean the past. Someone just said to me: "So-and-so had left me a message." I was waiting to hear what happened next but no, that was just the past tense as far as that person was concerned. I'm seeing it in writing now too.

That menu description is incredibly unclear. Having to read through through a list of dishes with the ingredients run together like that would make ordering much more difficult. I can't imagine it makes the server's job any easier either.

Have you also noticed that "ly" is a thing of the past, as in "That works perfect" or "It turned out perfect"? I hear that kind of thing in commercials on the radio on a daily basis.

Serial commas are one of my pet peeves, too. I learned to write using the Chicago Manual of Style. Now I work for an organization that edits according to the AP style manual. One uses uses the third comma and one doesn't. So, depending on one's situation, either placement could be appropriate. However, a menu isn't a newspaper and I'd opt for third commas if I were a menu editor. Of course, I'm the kind of person who purchased the book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" and gets the joke.

I would like to nominate this thread as one of the funniest of the year.

Additionally, I feel that the colon is the most underutilized punctuation: the proper use of the colon is especially relevant or those who love food.

MikeW665 wrote:Have you also noticed that "ly" is a thing of the past, as in "That works perfect" or "It turned out perfect"? I hear that kind of thing in commercials on the radio on a daily basis.

One of my pet peeves. I may not type full sentences (and I think there's room, particularly on the internets, for taking liberties with strict grammarian rules), but when I leave a party, and I'm told to "Drive safe," I mourn the death of the lowly ly.

nr706 wrote:

MikeW665 wrote:Have you also noticed that "ly" is a thing of the past, as in "That works perfect" or "It turned out perfect"? I hear that kind of thing in commercials on the radio on a daily basis.

One of my pet peeves. I may not type full sentences (and I think there's room, particularly on the internets, for taking liberties with strict grammarian rules), but when I leave a party, and I'm told to "Drive safe," I mourn the death of the lowly ly.

I usually tell people to drive recklessly. I figure they will do the opposite and drive safely.