JP1121 wrote: Sorry to disagree but if the story is true, the restaurant is very much to blame.

Yes, but that's not really the argument here. The debate is whether aloof and/or abysmal service at a vaunted LTH-approved restaurant supersedes the value of exemplary cooking.

For most of us, that answer is no.

TAC Quck is not Vong's Thai Kitchen. Just like Kuma's isn't Applebee's and Lao Sze Chuan isn't PF Chang's.

Sometimes bad things happen at good restaurants (at all levels). Sometimes customer service at more "ethnic" restaurants may not be in line with Western expectations. But, hey, that's why we love these places. It can sometimes be a roll of the dice, but the reward can be so much sweeter than eating in a more "predictable" environment.

I mean, come on, no one got hurt here. A dish was forgotten and maybe there was some sort of miscommunication due to a language barrier on the follow-up. It happens, but I wouldn't write off a place like TAC just based on this kind of experience.

JP1121 wrote:

seebee wrote:If you like the food there, try not to write it off. Really, it sounds like you just got caught up in a horrible situation. I doubt the restaurant itself is to blame

Sorry to disagree but if the story is true, the restaurant is very much to blame.

The most important part of the story is that they asked for the manager and he did not bother to at least listen to their complaint, that is not acceptable.

As a former manager of a Lettuce Entertain You restaurant I can tell you that it is unlikely that they will ever come back, and after an experience like that there is no reason why they should.

I agree that quality of food is important and I appreciate that this is a restaurant that you like, but there are so many great restaurants in Chicago there is no reason for someone to suffer even one bad night, and that is the harsh reality of the business.

JP1121, you make very valid points, although I think they would hold more true for a Lettuce place than Tac.

chezbrad wrote:

JP1121 wrote: Sorry to disagree but if the story is true, the restaurant is very much to blame.

Yes, but that's not really the argument here. The debate is whether aloof and/or abysmal service at a vaunted LTH-approved restaurant supersedes the value of exemplary cooking.

For most of us, that answer is no.

Well to me the answer is yes, but then I am new here and don't really know how significant it is to be a LTH approved restaurant, in terms of financial success for said approved restaurant. But my guess is that it would be better in the long run for the restaurant to take note and change their ways and service the customer, especially in this very difficult financial environment.

I consider myself an incredibly sympathetic diner but I still would not tolerate being ignored if felt I was mistreated by staff and asked for the manager, I don't care how good the food is. That is what managers/owners do, deal with problems.

In the example given I as a manager would not have comped the meal or even a dish, based on one dish not arriving, it sounded to me like a simple misunderstanding and a very demanding customer. An apology would suffice, maybe desert for the kid at most.

But even if the complaint is out of bounds, and believe me I have experienced some ridiculous complaints, it is still up to the manager to listen and decide.

But hey, that is just my opinion.

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seebee wrote:JP1121, you make very valid points, although I think they would hold more true for a Lettuce place than Tac.

Point taken, and you may very well be right. I am no longer in the business but I just know how hard it is to keep people coming back and it was drilled into us how one bad experience will likely be the last.

But I do love how you guys defend your favorites, it is very cool!

JP1121 wrote:But even if the complaint is out of bounds, and believe me I have experienced some ridiculous complaints, it is still up to the manager to listen and decide.

Also worth considering that at a place like TAC, there isn't necessarily a dedicated manager. The manager, owner and wok station might all be the same person, which might make it a little difficult to come running out on cue. I know of Andy more than I know Andy, and I don't know how his level of involvement might have changed over the past few years, but I believe he used to spend quite a bit of time doing most of the cooking with just a couple of servers up front. Those who aren't working purely on heresay can correct me, though.

In any case, VTK could host me with more love and affection than my dearly departed grandmothers and TAC could screw up my order every time and make snide remarks about it, and TAC would still be the Thai restaurant with my business. I'll take great food over great service every. single. time. There are exceptions, of course, but I think that goes for the majority of us here.

JP1121 wrote: But I do love how you guys defend your favorites, it is very cool!

You know, I keep seeing this lately, and I think it's a misperception. In a couple of circumstances lately, people have relayed how service put them off a restaurant, and posters have responded yes, that happens, but they like the place anyway. I think this is less about defending any given spot than it is about defining the culture of LTH: I think if the food is really good, many of us could give a hot damn if we're subjected to the drunken, swearing proprieter brandishing half a broken bottle while loudly singing opera off-key. For me, that's good to know (for instance, I might not bring Sparky to such a place,) but it's not really what I care about - it's really about what's on the table (or trunk, or dashboard, depending on the establishment.)

Mhays wrote:I think this is less about defending any given spot than it is about defining the culture of LTH

EXACTLY what I've been wanting to say multiple times over the past couple of weeks but have been at a loss for the words. Thanks for finding them.

I know we're all trying to be nice, which is, well, nice. But come on, this is just ridiculous. So an inexpensive, incredibly delicious neighborhood Thai place had a hard time with an unexpected, larger-than-usual party one night. They forgot an entree, and couldn't find a "manager". Maybe they didn't even know what the word "manager" meant. It is so incredibly pointless to post about this.

Dmnkly wrote:

Mhays wrote:I think this is less about defending any given spot than it is about defining the culture of LTH

EXACTLY what I've been wanting to say multiple times over the past couple of weeks but have been at a loss for the words. Thanks for finding them.

Or, to quote the eminently quotable Calvin Trillin about the importance of things in restaurants beyond the food:

If a New York restaurant figured out how to serve crawfish bisque or the kind of sopapillas available in, say, Española, New Mexico...I would be happy to eat the special of the day in a small, dark closet. People who attach great importance to the bright lights ought just to go to Radio City Music Hall and pack some sandwiches.

TAC is one of those places that has figured out how to bring tastes to Chicago that just didn't exist here before. I'd be happy to eat their daily specials in a small, dark closet.

Best,
Michael

Mhays wrote:it is about defining the culture of LTH: I think if the food is really good, many of us could give a hot damn if we're subjected to the drunken, swearing proprieter brandishing half a broken bottle while loudly singing opera off-key.

I could deal with the broken bottle but off key opera? NO NO NO.

Seriously, you may be right but I personally think that viewpoint is out of sync with the realities of the business, but if it is the prevailing attitude here I am sure those proprietors are very thankful for the existance of the LTH forum for sure.

JP1121 wrote:Seriously, you may be right but I personally think that viewpoint is out of sync with the realities of the business...

Of this, JP, we are acutely aware

(And, incidentally, alternately proud of and frustrated by.)

Dmnkly wrote:

JP1121 wrote:Seriously, you may be right but I personally think that viewpoint is out of sync with the realities of the business...

Of this, JP, we are acutely aware

(And, incidentally, alternately proud of and frustrated by.)

Jerry

Wondering how you'd all feel if the restaurant in question was $250 for two people instead of $30?

Does price point and the fact that it's a beloved board certified sacred cow hot shot chef increase expectations or would you let it slide?

$250 for two people with bad service (actually, the service once you're in the restaurant is pretty good) can be had at Schwa, and most LTHers seem OK with that, too.

Jazzfood wrote:Wondering how you'd all feel if the restaurant in question was $250 for two people instead of $30?

Does price point and the fact that it's a beloved board certified sacred cow hot shot chef increase expectations or would you let it slide?

Speaking only for myself, Alan, to extend the metaphor, if Jean Joho washed my car and shined my shoes as I dined while Thomas Keller insulted me on my way in and out the door, I'd still take The French Laundry over Everest every time. Doesn't make it right, but that's where my priorities are.

Dmnkly wrote:if Jean Joho washed my car and shined my shoes as I dined while Thomas Keller insulted me on my way in and out the door, I'd still take The French Laundry over Everest every time.

LOL! Fine dining as a study in masochism. IT works at Ed Debevic's, why not try it at 250 a plate. Instead of the waiters insulting you the head chef comes out in full gear and lays into you like Don Rickles on crack and you sit there quietly and eat your meal just happy to be in the presence of greatness. Now that would be a test of how good the food is for sure!

Who knows, it may sell.

JP1121 wrote:

Dmnkly wrote:if Jean Joho washed my car and shined my shoes as I dined while Thomas Keller insulted me on my way in and out the door, I'd still take The French Laundry over Everest every time.

LOL! Fine dining as a study in masochism. IT works at Ed Debevic's, why not try it at 250 a plate. Instead of the waiters insulting you the head chef comes out in full gear and lays into you like Don Rickles on crack and you sit there quietly and eat your meal just happy to be in the presence of greatness. Now that would be a test of how good the food is for sure!

Who knows, it may sell.

Hey, I'm not saying poor service is enjoyable or even excuseable -- just that when it comes to my priorities, service is a distant second. And it's going to take a pretty damn ornery staff to keep me away from a place that's uncommonly good.

chezbrad wrote:

JP1121 wrote: Sorry to disagree but if the story is true, the restaurant is very much to blame.

Yes, but that's not really the argument here. The debate is whether aloof and/or abysmal service at a vaunted LTH-approved restaurant supersedes the value of exemplary cooking.

For most of us, that answer is no.

Now, I do eat at Tac Quick all the time. It is great. But, as has already be posted here, you do have to be very careful ordering or risk a miscommunication due to a language barrier. I've experienced trivial mistakes there, usually on the order by which things were *requested* to arrive. Or totally accurate information on specific ingrediants. Again, these are issues arising out of verbal communication confusion. Not intention, not spite, not harassment or violence as has been alleged against certain Diners.

OTOH, I think the best way to get the managers attention in this instance is to refuse to pay the gratuity---which is, after all, for "service". I am sure then you'd have been invited into a discussion. And perhaps resolved things into a compromise you could live with, and return again. The concept of the gratuity, itself, probably accounts for the decline in great service. Because it has become an automatic entitlement, rather than a token of evaluation or appreciation. And you look incredibly cheap if you don't go along with this 20% "tax" automatically. You can be arrested if you refuse to pay a check---even for good reason---but can you be arrested if you refuse to pay the gratuity on dissapointing service? When I lived in Australia, my first meal out was actually a thai place. It was great and I left a tip. After I left, the server chased me down the street to return the money, and explained that it is just not done in Aus., only the americans do it, they already receive a full salary as an employee, etc. And service was impeccable everywhere I went in Oz, even the dinky meatpie diners run by crusty bawdy sisters. The very concept of the great food/bad service place is only even coherent in the U.S.

So to those who claim the service is irrelevant, try not paying for the "service' charge and see what happens.

I should point out, in case it isn't clear in my above post, I don't think posts about disappointing service are irrelevant, please continue posting them. They probably won't stop me from visiting a given spot, but they do help to make my expectations clear.

Marco wrote:The concept of the gratuity, itself, probably accounts for the decline in great service.

What decline in great service?

Marco wrote:So to those who claim the service is irrelevant, try not paying for the "service' charge and see what happens.

Who claimed irrelevance? "Lower priority" does not equal irrelevance.

I don't think all posts about service issues are irrelevant. Only the irrelevant ones.

"Are we just an overly sensitive coterie of effete and self-important snooty-pants dilettantes?"
David Hammond

Kennyz wrote:I don't think all posts about service issues are irrelevant. Only the irrelevant ones.

The thing about relevance is that it is so darn relative.

Wow! Didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest, but for you TAC-lovers, we didn't leave angry or sullen -- just disappointed that of the four couples, two were my kids who have in their own way noticed service declines at TAC and said "told you so, Dad," and the other were friends of ours who have been asking us since the Check Please! episode that we go with them to TAC one day, and they were not impressed. This wasn't a "forgotten" dish, it was a dish they ran out of and nobody bothered to tell us until it was too late and that's just not acceptable no matter how many or how few stars a place rates. No, we didn't see Andy there and I'm not sure if anyone was in charge that evening. Any restaurant can have an off night, and if the staff accepts responsibility, apologizes and hopefully compensates with a check adjustment, free dessert or even just a "please come back and we'll make it right" all can be easily forgiven. To not care -- well, that tells me they've become a "Mediocre Neighborhood Restaurant."
>>Brent

I think it was the "server" and the "manager" that didn't care. Granted, they were your representatives for Tac that night, but I don't think that represents the attitude that the servers display on a regular basis. Again, I wasn't there, and I would probably be a lil bit ticked too, but I would chalk it up to the server being not the brightest light on the marquis, and the "manager" too. Especially since their inclusive tip is predicated on the bill amt. Also, again, I'm not saying that their actions were "acceptable" at all, just that the stars were simply not lined up for you. I'm not trying to talk you out of writing them off, just trying to somehow make sense of what happened. I might have asked the server, with all due respect, and in all honesty, how it could possibly make sense to them to refuse you an order of food when the extra order of food would add $ to their tip? I really think you got a sub-par server to say the least. I mean, that's like rudimentary stuff there.

I appreciate that Brent recounted his experience here. If it had happened to me, I certainly would have been disappointed and likely, a bit irritated. Upon hitting similar rough spots at other places I like, I usually end up taking a break from them for a while. But as long as the incidents are isolated, they're generally not enough to permanently prevent my return. However, if I begin to sense a pattern, that might not be the case.

Strictly as an additional data point, my last few trips to TAC were stellar on every level.

=R=

I too appreciate the detailed account of the service "problems", as it helps me put the poster's opinion into context. I have been given all the information I need to realize that what is a big deal to Brent is virtually meaningless to me. It's not that either of us is right or wrong, just that we have drastically different expectations regarding the service at a place like TAC. I happen to think that Brent's expectations are completely unreasonable, and have the unfortunate consequence of depriving him of wonderful food. I discourage others from entering places like TAC with similar expectations regarding service. That said, the service I've had in 7-8 visits has always been fine. Once they brought the wrong item - something I didn't order, but it turned out to be delicious.

All this guffawing over one or two wrong or forgotten (or whatever) dishes at what amounts to a small, family run ethnic restaurant is hilarious to me. I remember one of the first restaurants I went to after moving to Chicago in 2001 was Hema's Kitchen when it was a basic hole-in-the-wall on Devon with a large crib as the central decoration. One of the best things about the old Hema's was that it forced you to dine on another cultures terms. Sure you had a menu to order off of but it was to make us outsiders feel better. You never got exactly what you ordered. Your order was taken as a template and then the kitchen served whatever they felt like.

Don't let the decor at TAC fool you... you are going to a restaurant that operates from a cultural base different from our own. In fact, that is why most people that read this board go. We are fortunate enough to have a handful of Thai restaurants that, despite the prevailing thought that Anglos won't eat real Thai food put themselves out there. Why is it so hard to believe that it isn't just the food that doesn't conform to western style. We have a tendency here to treat waitstaff as clerks that simply run between the kitchen and the customer but then take it as a personal affront if they dare to make a mistake at your table... I am no expert on Thai culture but at all of my favorite Thai places, Spoon, Aroy, TAC, Sticky Rice, I have found that you get nearly a mirror image of what you put in. If you engage the staff, ask questions about the menu, take recommendations, you are engaged right back. If you expect the waitstaff to be no more than a message board you are treated as no more than a customer. These are family places that don't really need to open their kitchens the way they do... I'm sure most would be just fine doing take out and pad Thai. When you wonder why more places don't put themselves out like these places do... remember complaints like these. Next time someone makes a simple mistake or miscommunication occurs try asking what the server recommends that isn't on the English menu and let them know how much you like the other dishes not offered somewhere else rather than getting upset and complaining. Remember, the way people treat you is a reflection of how you treat them.

I might be wrong, but I think Brent stated that (he?) and his other family members have been "semi-regulars" at Tac, and some fam members live within walking distance. They have noticed the service going downhill. I'm not too sure that characterizing them as having too lofty expectations is correct. I think they may have been there enough to know what to expect.

For the record, I'm not defending Brent or Tac (I wasn't there.)
I will say that I like the place a lot, and them being out of an item, but not telling me about it would irk me, but would not be a dealbreaker for me at all.