You're right about NO2 being the main source of the pink ring, but NO2 isn't only found in smoke. Plenty of gas grills out there produce nitrogen dioxide without any significant amount of smoke, so you can theoretically get a smoke ring out of them. Doesn't mean the meat was smoked.

I agree that the smoke ring is pretty, but it doesn't tell you much.

abf005 wrote:Now if anyone wants to try a taste test blindfolded, putting one smoked meat with a ring against one without, be my guest, and report back your findings. I doubt anyone can identify even 2 out of 10.

Posed as a bet, I would take that -- given that sheer luck should get you 5 out of 10.

Binko wrote:

abf005 wrote:Now if anyone wants to try a taste test blindfolded, putting one smoked meat with a ring against one without, be my guest, and report back your findings. I doubt anyone can identify even 2 out of 10.

Posed as a bet, I would take that -- given that sheer luck should get you 5 out of 10.

Assuming that I only put 2 out of 10, how. Would that make your odds look?

abf005 wrote: This is a BBQ black hole subject; go to any major BBQ site and there will be thread running on the merits or fallacies of the smoke ring.

that I can agree with, this subject can be debated until our fingers are sore or we are blue in the face. My bad for making such a blanket statement, and dredging it up.

it would be great if for next years bbq at my place(tenatively being called "Marseilles Meat and 3 - 2010", paying respect to that chapter of Gary's Book.. ) we could get a few more bbqr's to show up & to show off their skills, or at the very least post some pics on this great thread of what they are producing on their smokers.

jimswside wrote:tenatively being called "Marseilles Meat and 3 - 2010"

Sheesh. Year 2 and we already have a logo change? I'll have to throw together a quote for redesign first!

DeathByOrca wrote:

jimswside wrote:tenatively being called "Marseilles Meat and 3 - 2010"

Sheesh. Year 2 and we already have a logo change? I'll have to throw together a quote for redesign first!

hilarious..... I didnt want to ride on the coat tales of Memphis in May anymore. Plus I can then move it to June instead of being held to May.

i think a good measure of a real bbq man is how he can cook on another man/womans cooker

bum phillips the football coach said once about tom landry coach of the cowboys

he could take his'n and beat your'n
or
he could take your'n and beat his'n

as far as what you use to bbq with
what ever you like
what ever floats your boat
more than one way to skin a cat

i am sure that of the 4000 teams that cook kcbs
the vast majority of them are using therms and guru's
and lots of other toys

the real question is not what temp you cook at
but what temp do you take your meat out
ribs
shoulders
brisket


we should all care more about what we do and not so much about what someone else does

bbq = fun and good times with family and friends
slow cooking with smoke flavor and in lew of that as close as you care to get
peace

baby ray wrote:i think a good measure of a real bbq man is how he can cook on another man/womans cooker

bum phillips the football coach said once about tom landry coach of the cowboys

he could take his'n and beat your'n
or
he could take your'n and beat his'n

as far as what you use to bbq with
what ever you like
what ever floats your boat
more than one way to skin a cat

i am sure that of the 4000 teams that cook kcbs
the vast majority of them are using therms and guru's
and lots of other toys

the real question is not what temp you cook at
but what temp do you take your meat out
ribs
shoulders
brisket


we should all care more about what we do and not so much about what someone else does

bbq = fun and good times with family and friends
slow cooking with smoke flavor and in lew of that as close as you care to get
peace

Spoken like a true elder statesman of the BBQ world. Dave, your a class act, no doubt about it.

BBQ is road trip. You choose from many roads, fuels, vehicles and companions to get there. In the end, it's that you arrived that mattered.

baby ray wrote:the real question is not what temp you cook at
but what temp do you take your meat out

Dave,

I bet you can guess my answer, not important, at least to the way I cook BBQ.

Further, in particular those new to BBQ, often encounter problems tracking internal temperature of brisket and pork shoulder. They may, or may not, know a (loose) target temp is 197-200, but what they often don't know is the internal temperature of brisket and pork shoulder plateaus at approx 160 for hours. This tends to confuse, once again especially the new smoker, and leads to both anxiety and taking the meat off the smoker too early.

On another note, Congratulations to Dave Raymond and team Sweet Baby Ray for taking 1st in Ribs at last weekends KCBS BBQ contest in Westmont.

Enjoy,
Gary

G Wiv wrote:

baby ray wrote:the real question is not what temp you cook at
but what temp do you take your meat out

Dave,

I bet you can guess my answer, no idea, don't really care.

Further, in particular those new to BBQ, often encounter problems tracking internal temperature of brisket and pork shoulder. They may, or may not, know a (loose) target temp is 197-200, but what they often don't know is the internal temperature of brisket and pork shoulder plateaus at approx 160 for hours. This tends to confuse, once again especially the new smoker, and leads to both anxiety and taking the meat off the smoker too early.

How true.

On the Cookshack BBQ forum, the moderator is a very respected circuit competition cook named Smokin' Okie. He is best known for his saying on Brisket; "it's done, when it's done". You can't rush it, and you cant predict it.

So why do you need to know the cooker temperature so precisely, then?

I'm not being snarky. I'm really curious why you're that interested in that when the meat itself is the main wild card.

Maybe I care less because I feel the WSM is so reliably within range?

baby ray wrote:i think a good measure of a real bbq man is how he can cook on another man/womans cooker

bum phillips the football coach said once about tom landry coach of the cowboys

he could take his'n and beat your'n
or
he could take your'n and beat his'n

as far as what you use to bbq with
what ever you like
what ever floats your boat
more than one way to skin a cat

i am sure that of the 4000 teams that cook kcbs
the vast majority of them are using therms and guru's
and lots of other toys

the real question is not what temp you cook at
but what temp do you take your meat out
ribs
shoulders
brisket


we should all care more about what we do and not so much about what someone else does

bbq = fun and good times with family and friends
slow cooking with smoke flavor and in lew of that as close as you care to get
peace

great points Dave,

and congrats on your guys win @ Westmont.

if you know by look or feel you dont need nothing
if you are in a competiton you better have every tool and toy available
knowledge is power as they say
and these guys are not accurate they are precise
and i will take the guy who knows the temp instead of guessing the temp
just about every time

as a rule better to over cook than under cook
and getting it cooked right is much more inportant than getting the flavorright
you can win without the best flavor but i dont think you can will without cooking meat to the right temp or doneness

if you are not in a competiton
what ever floats you boat and makes it more fun for you

hot dogs hamburgers steaks chops chicken
no biggie

ribs shoulders and brisket
very big deal

chances are good in a slab of ribs
by the time the ends of a slab are done the bones in the middle are over done

also there are a number of things you can do once you take meat off the smoker
(like if you over cook brisket you can put it in a ice bath and stop it from cooking right away)
you can reseason your food
you can resauce your food
in my younger days when we overcooked
i would call it the miracle of sweet baby rays and use a technique we called dunk o rama ; 0 )
if its not done you can put it over more heat and get it done or get it crisper
you can as some mositure and wrap in foil to achive more tenderness and moisture

thanks gary and jim and burt for your kind words
ribs were good chicken was not so good 26th

we are hoping to use gary's buttermilk brine recepie (looked it up and learned me some more about brine's 101 in his book) in a practice cook so we could consider it for our next kcbs event

then i spoke to gary and he offered to come out to wood dale and give us a text book demonstration on how he cooked it on his wsm at jims cookout that we all commented that looked so good and tasted so good

now thats bbq
friends getting together having fun smoking meat out doors
yahoo mountain dew

thanks gary
monday tuesday or wed any time after mid day will likely work for us or the following week sometime
anybody that wants to come hang out or check it out
y'all are more than wellcome

and thanks for coming out to westmont gary

i think the term

its done when its done

is code for competiton guys not wanting to tell others what their cooking methods and secerts are

i have heard and been told the same thing at competitons by more than a few

but went judgement is being renderded on what you are cooking i would want to know for sure that i am cooking to the right temp ( and i dont doubt for a second that these same guys do too)

baby ray wrote:i think the term

its done when its done

is code for competiton guys not wanting to tell others what their cooking methods and secerts are

i have heard and been told the same thing at competitons by more than a few

but went judgement is being renderded on what you are cooking i would want to know for sure that i am cooking to the right temp ( and i dont doubt for a second that these same guys do too)

Ray. I purposefully don't cook competition BBQ. I cook for fun and food. That allows me to turn out a more "artisinal" product, rather than trying to have my BBQ be exactly the same every time. It's done when it's done is more than just a way to "hide your secrets" it's a mantra I live by. BBQ is not a precise science, despite any gadgets and geegaws one might use. Every piece of meat is a little different, and unless you're cooking foodservice pre-portioned meat patties, there is always variability in how a particular cut of meat cooks. That's where the skill of the cook comes into play.

chances are good in a slab of ribs
by the time the ends of a slab are done the bones in the middle are over done

I assume you mean this the other way around (by the time the bones in the middle are done the ones on the outside are over done).

steve
i agree
there are lots of things about kcbs and competiton i do not like
a lot of what you mentioned and more
what i do like is the people and hanging around talking bbq and most of all being apart of a team
and i do like to do competiton bbq and backyard as well as being a ribber and a bbq restrauant guy
it gives me more bbq creditability
and allows me to talk the talk and walk the walk
your point is well made though

i was not speaking to what we like as much as trying to answer the question
why someone would temp food and and smoker


the end of a slab will usually be meatier than the center bones and thusly cook slower than the middle

i have been telling the story of when i was in texas at the nbbqa in oct

barry from smoque was cooking and serving ribs
paul kirk took a bone and stated that they were overcooked
no one said anything till joey mac from joey'smack smokestax(2008 gc at the american royal)
joey has a bone eats it waits a moment or two and states
id have to rate it a 9 in tenderness and a 9 in taste
what happend was
paul had a bone from the center of the slab... a little dry
and joey had a bone from the same slab but the end
paul kirk was ultimately right because if the ribs were taken out 1/2 hour earlier the center bones would not have been over cooked and the end bones still would have been moist and juicy
my end analisis was that the real bbq was not the ribs but the great bbq people coming outside from the convention and eating bbq and talking bbq on a beautiful texas day instead of being inside at the convention

what is fun for you with bbq may not be the same for others
if you cooked to improve on what you do to get better and better at it
to be precise instead of accurate
for a lot of guys that is taking bbq to another level
i started out feeling exactly like you
after spending a year with these guys
i have come to have a great deal of respect for them
we love bbq just like you do
im sure there is not a competiton cook anywere the does only competiton cooks
we all love to grill bbq and cook whenever and as much as we can
competiton bbq is a aspect of bbq
it is not the only way of bbq
the level of precisness as well effort and time put into it
i am sure you would at least respect what they do even if it is not your cup of tea

baby ray wrote:what is fun for you with bbq may not be the same for others
if you cooked to improve on what you do to get better and better at it
to be precise instead of accurate
for a lot of guys that is taking bbq to another level

Dave,

I disagree. What you call precise I call uniform/homogenized. Competition cooking is all about appealing to groups of unknown people sitting around a table. You are profiling flavor that appeals to the greatest number of people without going over the top and offending. Not too spicy, lots of sweet tender oh so honey good spend some time in foil BBQ 'goodness'

This type of BBQ cookery, at least to me, is not next level, but lowest common denominator cooking.

Far as BBQ competitions go, I agree they are fun, I've been to a few, nothing better than 4am bourbon while the fires burn and the lies get larger as dark turns to dawn.

Regards,
Gary

i would sugest to anybody
cooking 4 meats to a time
just as i shared with you in westmont
the compelling thing about kcbs to me is cooking 4 meats to a specific time
now if you or anybody else thinks thats the lowest anything
then i say bring our your equipment
6 guys made over 100k last year in kcbs
and over 4000 teams spend an average of 700 dollars and 36 strait hours per cook cooking
we cooked in 12 events
had a plan took notes made improvements spent many many hours talking about how and what we want and think we should do spoke with others read publications read books spoke with people who wrote books went to a convention went back to texas went to yada yada yada
to compare what we are talking about to what you are talking about is nonsense
its one thing to talk the talk its another to walk the walk
you and others seem to thing by attemting to make less of what others do will make more of what you do
i give you alot of credit for what you know and what you have done
but i dont accept at all when you attempt to diminish what others do

changed up my menu for today, I could not pass up a beautiful(to me) bone in pork loin. Rubbed it with some yellow mustard, and minced garlic last night, and applied a rub today. Its about 5 Lbs, and I will start smoking it this afternoon after I cut the lawn.

Also doing some smoked meatballs(pork, and ground chuck). gonna smoke them for a bout an hour and a half, and then put in the crock pot with grape jelly, chili sauce, and some hot sauce for a couple hours.

thanks for changing the tone jim
sorry for losing my kool

baby ray wrote:thanks for changing the tone jim
sorry for losing my kool

its all good, your passion for bbq is admirable.

for the record gary and i have talked and kissed and made up
steve i am sorry if i offended you in anyway
oddly enough gary feels like he is defending everyone who is not competion bbq
and i felt like i was defending competiton bbq's time and effort as opposed to the method that is used

baby ray wrote:for the record gary and i have talked and kissed and made up

Dave,

There was nothing to make up about. Disagreeing is not the same as being disagreeable.

baby ray wrote:oddly enough gary feels like he is defending everyone who is not competion bbq

That wasn't really my point, but we can leave it at that.

Enjoy,
Gary

baby ray wrote:steve i am sorry if i offended you in anyway

Nope. Not in any way. I've got no problem with BBQ competitions. They're lots of fun. They're just not for me. I guess I'm just a Luddite, in that I like to cook by feel and don't normally follow any fixed recipes or timings (like the way my Grandma used to cook). I just do what feels right, and seldom cook exactly the same way twice in a row. Sometimes it's a success and sometimes it's not, but as time goes on, the failures get much fewer and farther between (and tougher to detect by anyone except for me) and the successes go to higher and higher levels (or so I'm told by those who regularly eat my BBQ). An approach like that would never get me very far on the competition circuit, so it never even occurs to me to participate. I can see the allure for some, though.

BTW, interesting take on middle bones being done before the outside ones. I'm not sure the laws of physics support that theory, but it's a good one.

baby ray wrote:oddly enough gary feels like he is defending everyone who is not competion bbq

can I defend the back yard hacks of the world?


meatballs are done, somehow got a darned smoke ring on them.

pork roast is @ about 140 degrees,

Mike G wrote:So why do you need to know the cooker temperature so precisely, then?

I'm not being snarky. I'm really curious why you're that interested in that when the meat itself is the main wild card.

Maybe I care less because I feel the WSM is so reliably within range?

I dont see it as a snarky remark... So no worries. So here are my thoughts on why.

To me, what anyone uses to cook on is really irrelevant, slow cooking has several properties that are common to turning out product that is consistent or good. Which seems to be a bad word with the LTH crowd. I cook electric, no cooker, is more steady and can be kept in tighter range that that!

Now I've seen it stated here how some like a wild-card in the mix and wanna purposely turn out "artisanal" BBQ for their own results, that's fine, enjoy yourself.

I think it fun to experiment & play with the metrics too. Whether be by creating variance in a rub, sauce, cook temps, timings, process or even going so far as to make modifications or redesigns of the cookers themselves.

I get that, I really do. If you saw some of the mods, tweaks and hacks I've made to some of my cookers you'd know what a real "Frankenstein" cooker looks like and never again call a Southern pride such a thing!

But when I hear someone say they dont need probes or therms, and dont understand or see the need to do cook chamber monitoring, I'm reminded of a Steven Wright joke: "You know how it feels when you're leaning back on a chair, and you lean too far back, and you almost fall over backwards, but then you catch yourself at the last second? I feel like that all the time." Just substitute "I feel like that all the time." with "I cook like that all time"...

I firmly believe, BBQ is about personal taste, and using a strong personal methodology. Some folks are nuts about the type of cooker, others obsess over the fuel source, many focus on the rubs, seasonings and sauces. And some drone over the cooking process or the look and feel of the smoke existing the system. Whatever it is, believers in their process dont deviate from it, because it what's works for them, and they are obtaining the results their palettes desire.

I go after controlling the heat source, monitoring the cooking chamber and trying to be aware of the products condition until I'm satisfied its ready for serving. I like to eliminate all the outside variables that I can control so the my only wildcard is the meat itself.

To me, the term "It's done when its done" is not as much a way of withholding info at all. In my mind, it is a way of saying to beginner and novice BBQ'r that BBQ is more about patience, and learning to read the signs. Its about knowing you can use various tools to help you determine what some of those signs are, and what is supposed to be optimal. Just like in Gary's example down thread about hitting a brisket plateau. The thing about tool is that they give you a repeatable process and a target to shoot for, as for "the way of the meat"? Well that's the fun part of the wildcard no one can really control!

jimswside wrote:

baby ray wrote:oddly enough gary feels like he is defending everyone who is not competion bbq

can I defend the back yard hacks of the world?

I'd feel great if you had my back...

Mike G wrote:
Maybe I care less because I feel the WSM is so reliably within range?

not everyone uses a WSM as hard as it is to believe.

abf005 wrote:

jimswside wrote:

baby ray wrote:oddly enough gary feels like he is defending everyone who is not competion bbq

can I defend the back yard hacks of the world?

I'd feel great if you had my back...

you know Ive got your back Burt.

Pork turned out great(probably the best pork roast I have ever eaten), so did the meatballs, Pics to follow tomorrow(i dont just talk a good game I show it)...,

bad thing, I somehow damaged my probe. guess its off to SuperWalmart to get a new one.