It might not be illegal but my guess is that it would be impossible.

McDonald's ingredient and product specifications would be so detailed and complex that few companies, if any, could meet them with any sort of consistency (It's the U.S. govt. Haliburton model of only this supplier is capable of supplying and that's why they have the business).

Those that could are likely already producing for McDonald's or one of its competitors.

Virtually impossible for an outsider to penetrate unless McD's has an interest in setting someone up in business which they've done with minority firms or to counterbalance a supplier they view as too powerful.

auxen1 wrote:Perhaps if you're independently minded and have your own ideas about what makes a good hamburger you never go to hamburger U. And, if you're independently minded and don't give a hoot about what you serve in your restaurant but see the biz benefits of owning one of the top performing franchises you do.

It's a good argument and it may come down to a case of semantics, but I feel like it is one thing to be an independent businessman and another to be an independent restaurateur and I prefer to support the independent restaurateur, but as always your mileage may vary.

JP,

Like you, after eating at McD's I experience deep regret. Only exceeded by that once every couple years when I eat KFC and so also feel sick to my stomach. So I'm no proponent of the food.

I'd venture that both populations share the independent streak. What separates them is that one has already achieved some wealth and the other is more creative. Much more creative.

I do like the McD's coffee which is all I've bought there in the last many years. I think it's better than Starbucks.

I guess I don't understand this deep aversion to fast food in general and McDonalds in particular. McDonalds was, at one point, an independant restaurant. They're just a bit bigger now. But really, deep regret? Sick to your stomach? That's more than a bit mental. I bet y'all dont eat Kraft Mac-n-Cheese either. Sure I would rather eat from the "little guy" restaurant that offers fresher food but until "little guy" opens up a bunch of stands just off the freeway so I can pull off and get a quick lunch...oh wait, that would make "little guy"...GASP...McDonalds!

hoppy2468 wrote:I guess I don't understand this deep aversion to fast food in general and McDonalds in particular. McDonalds was, at one point, an independant restaurant. They're just a bit bigger now. But really, deep regret? Sick to your stomach? That's more than a bit mental. I bet y'all dont eat Kraft Mac-n-Cheese either. Sure I would rather eat from the "little guy" restaurant that offers fresher food but until "little guy" opens up a bunch of stands just off the freeway so I can pull off and get a quick lunch...oh wait, that would make "little guy"...GASP...McDonalds!

I can't speak for the others, but last time I ate at McDonald's (probably 6 or 7 years ago), it made me feel sick to my stomach, but it was not because I was supporting McDonald's or have some unreasonable aversion to McDonald's. The food just sat heavy and greasy in my stomach -- I think my body is just no longer calibrated for that type of food. No mental component of which I'm aware.

for a quick bite that serves no more than basic sustenance on the run, McDonald's is just fine for me. no sick to my stomach type stuff here, but its not something i seek out when i have time. when i have time and want something with unique and quality flavor i hit up one of the GNRs or a local place i enjoy. heck, i even prefer smaller chains like Five GUys to MCDs, but in a drive-thru pinch, MCDs has its purpose.

hoppy2468 wrote:I guess I don't understand this deep aversion to fast food in general and McDonalds in particular.

Nothing against McDonalds in particular, it is simply representative of the fast food nation that we have become. The aversion, my aversion that is, is to the mass produced corporate driven assembly line always frozen never fresh cardboard tasting food, the regret is for having consumed said product rather then spent my eight bucks helping out a little guy and eating fresh food and something unique and perhaps even special that only he or she prepares a certain way, but hey, that's just me.

I had the Angus burger in LA a year ago, and it wasn't bad (I thought it was a step up from the 1/4 pounder). I think Mickie D's overcooks their burger, so it's not some place I go all that often. I also have grown to dislike their fries (I find that they have a greasy after taste). All in all, I don't think In n Out (or Culvers) has anything to worry about.

But really, deep regret? Sick to your stomach? That's more than a bit mental. !

It might be a bit mental, but physical as well. I don't feel good after eating the burgers. I love KFC, it's really a guilty pleasure that I will endulge once every couple years....but I get nauseous in about an hour.

I do think McD's coffee is solid. I think the egg mcmuffin is terriffic. Bfast is a solid value.

I bet y'all dont eat Kraft Mac-n-Cheese either.

Hasn't been in the house for years. Annies and Trader Joes both have brands where "cheese" is in the ingredient list (unlike Kraft's product)

until "little guy" opens up a bunch of stands just off the freeway so I can pull off and get a quick lunch...oh wait, that would make "little guy"...GASP...McDonalds

I believe that what you write is valid. Having met McD's franchise owners I like and respect their business acumen. The conversation was never about food, though.

auxen1 wrote:I believe that what you write is valid. Having met McD's franchise owners I like and respect their business acumen. The conversation was never about food, though.

I doubt many of them eat the drek they serve in the restaurants, either (by choice). I can say from first hand experience that at their corporate meetings they never eat "burnt bossie on a bun".

Although a certain ad agency for a certain hamburger chain once wanted to show a new client its intense loyalty to its other clients (I guess) by bringing hamburger chain's food to the first big powwow of their respective upper managements, instead of some fancy food from the fine dining joint in the building.

The thing was, the new client was a running shoe company, and needless to say, everyone there had a BMI of 0.7 and reacted to the greasy gloppy burgers and fries they were offered like PETA being served monkey brains.

stevez wrote:I can say from first hand experience that at their corporate meetings they never eat "burnt bossie on a bun".

I can vouch for that, back when I did food purchasing for the Hyatt Lodge on the McDonalds campus the food was of high quality, and I bought the best food I could source in Chicago for them.

As for eating McDonalds, I try to avoid it as much as possible, and I also tend to feel ill after eating a Big Mac, and an order of fries,(or an eggmcmuffin, and hashbrowns for that matter) no matter how good the idea sounded before eating. All that fried food, greasy "beef" patties, french fries, etc.. I wouldnt doubt the folks at McD's are trying to figure out a way to deep fry their beverage options.

Another reason I avoid McD's if at all possible is because when I drove a limo that McD's had a corporate account with, I never ran into such a high percentage of jags, and cheapskates in my life.

I doubt I will ever try the 1/3 "angus" burger.

Jimswside, I'm glad you posted that as I do business at the lodge once a year, and have tried to get them to serve egg mcmuffins for the breakfast hot food item, and they say no way, not affiliated. We end up with some sort of burrito, which is good, but the egg mcmuffins would be cool since we are on the McDonald's campus.

i know the crash some of you are mentioning and that does happen when eating anything in excess, at least for me, that is fried and high in carbohydrates (though i've experienced crashes from the grilled steak las asadas burrito). the big mac, fries and full bodied cola certainly fits that bill. that said, MCDs has wraps and salads, which i've been eating lately with the diet beverages and i have not experienced those types of crashes. the worst crashes in my experience come from taco bell, which makes sense since their food is high carb/low protein for the most part.

nicinchic wrote:Jimswside, I'm glad you posted that as I do business at the lodge once a year, and have tried to get them to serve egg mcmuffins for the breakfast hot food item, and they say no way, not affiliated. We end up with some sort of burrito, which is good, but the egg mcmuffins would be cool since we are on the McDonald's campus.

when I worked there was a long time ago, around 15 years now, so I dont know if things have changed. It was fun from a purchasing perspective to have no fiscal restraints when buying, I loved the experience of buying whole wheels of reggiano parmesan, great beef, wild game, etc.

Another reason I avoid McD's if at all possible is because when I drove a limo that McD's had a corporate account with, I never ran into such a high percentage of jags, and cheapskates in my life.

Can't disagree with you. Would't want a job where my back was to those guys.

I have a theory. Is there anyone who enjoys McD's who did not eat it as a child? My mother considered it revolting, and would not allow us to eat there, so my first taste of their food (aside from one Shamrock Shake) was in my 20s. Then I had a brief love affair with their cheeseburger, but it faded quickly and I really have no desire to eat there again. None of their flavors appeal. But it seems like most people my age have a place in their heart for it still.

Suzy Creamcheese wrote:I have a theory. Is there anyone who enjoys McD's who did not eat it as a child?

Me, for one. When you have seven kids you cannot afford to feed them at McDonald's. We had Burger King at most seven times a year (on your birthday you got to pick the birthday dinner). On summer trips all nine of us piled into a station wagon with a cooler of homemade cheese/butter/pickle/wonder bread sandwiches.

I must have gone to McDonald's occasionally as a child, but I have no clear memory of eating at one until I started working there one summer in high school.

auxen1 wrote:I believe that what you write is valid. Having met McD's franchise owners I like and respect their business acumen.

I agree with this. Several years ago, I was invited to a refurbished McDonald's "grand reopening" here in Indy, hyping some higher-end sandwiches and salads, complete with a separate ordering counter and some nicer seating.

The event was catered, ably, by a local group.

The restaurant's refurbished portion is a now a kid's play area. I think the franchise owners are pretty familiar with their wheelhouse.

hoppy2468 wrote:I guess I don't understand this deep aversion to fast food in general and McDonalds in particular.

I don't doubt there's some game-playing going on in this discussion, and don't take much of the conversation as more than that.

Matt wrote: when i have time and want something with unique and quality flavor i hit up one of the GNRs or a local place i enjoy.

Some of the GNRs aren't going to offer you much, if any, different or improved quality in product than McDonalds and some of the other franchises will. Some of the quality requirements placed on suppliers of the franchisers will I've no doubt be higher than what many independent operations maintain/seek-out.

Suzy Creamcheese wrote:I have a theory. Is there anyone who enjoys McD's who did not eat it as a child?

As a child in the 50s when McDonalds was a new, different and exciting concept my mother would treat us by driving to the closest McDonalds, at 79th & Marshfield, and we'd have some of the hamburgers. The really big treat, though, was heading to the White Castle and devouring a sack of sliders. I don't like any of the fast food chain fried burgers today, except I still can't seem to pass-up a White Castle without stopping for a few. The only fast food chain burgers I eat these days come from Burger King.

Katie wrote:Me, for one. When you have seven kids you cannot afford to feed them at McDonald's.

Nor can one afford to take a family of that size to any restaurant, very often - not just a McDonald's.

JP1121 wrote:It's a good argument and it may come down to a case of semantics, but I feel like it is one thing to be an independent businessman and another to be an independent restaurateur and I prefer to support the independent restaurateur, but as always your mileage may vary.

The owner of the McDonald's closest to where I live, almost across the street, is someone I know and speak with on a regular basis and I consider him an "independent" business operator. The man, and his adult son (they have two McDonalds in the vicinity) are active in community organizations and support local events. This McDonalds has developed into the urban equivalent of a small town diner - with a large group of "regular" customers visiting on a daily basis, and the restaurant and its employees cater to the peculiarities of the clientel. The owners invested over $1 milliion in the demolition of an existing, older store and the building of a new one and when Oakbrook wanted a certain design the neighborhood found objectionable the restaurant owner pushed hard to support most of the neighborhood resident requests. The restaurant is considered a valued part of our community. My visits are almost always on Saturday mornings when I meet-up with a group of 10 or so neighborhood residents with whom I have some breakfast - an egg mc muffin meal, which I enjoy. Such business owners as the one I refer to contribute much to our communities - not the least of are jobs.

Bill wrote:

Matt wrote: when i have time and want something with unique and quality flavor i hit up one of the GNRs or a local place i enjoy.

Some of the GNRs aren't going to offer you much, if any, different or improved quality in product than McDonalds and some of the other franchises will. Some of the quality requirements placed on suppliers of the franchisers will I've no doubt be higher than what many independent operations maintain/seek-out.

Allowing for the fact that MBK's first name could be Matt, I think the above quote is misattributed to me (or at least appears to be).

Some of the GNRs aren't going to offer you much, if any, different or improved quality in product than McDonalds and some of the other franchises will. Some of the quality requirements placed on suppliers of the franchisers will I've no doubt be higher than what many independent operations maintain/seek-out.

Bill, I don't think that its possible to have higher quality ingredients than McD's. Their product stewardship is unmatched.

When I use the word "quality" I'm thinking foremost about freshness, safety, testing, etc. And so I would rate the quality of their ingredients such as lettuce and beef as higher than, say, than what might be used at a Charlie Trotters (to pick an extreme example).

Someone not terribly focused on stewardship of lettuce production but very focused on taste....and puts taste ahead of safety when defining quality....would likely disagree.

But while McD's ingredients are of the highest quality, what the cook does with those ingredients makes all the difference in the world. McD's has defined fast food in this country and many parts of the world but it's just not a place I'm going to encourage anyone to go to. (Even though like you I like the owners I've met)

Bill wrote:

Katie wrote:When you have seven kids you cannot afford to feed them at McDonald's.

Nor can one afford to take a family of that size to any restaurant, very often - not just a McDonald's.

That's what I meant to say. Thanks, Bill.

Suzy Creamcheese wrote:I have a theory. Is there anyone who enjoys McD's who did not eat it as a child?

Maybe the opposite of your theory is just as true. I have the opportunity as an adult to enjoy something that I didn't have much chance to enjoy as a child.

auxen1 wrote:

Some of the GNRs aren't going to offer you much, if any, different or improved quality in product than McDonalds and some of the other franchises will. Some of the quality requirements placed on suppliers of the franchisers will I've no doubt be higher than what many independent operations maintain/seek-out.

Bill, I don't think that its possible to have higher quality ingredients than McD's. Their product stewardship is unmatched.

When I use the word "quality" I'm thinking foremost about freshness, safety, testing, etc. And so I would rate the quality of their ingredients such as lettuce and beef as higher than, say, than what might be used at a Charlie Trotters (to pick an extreme example).

Someone not terribly focused on stewardship of lettuce production but very focused on taste....and puts taste ahead of safety when defining quality....would likely disagree.

But while McD's ingredients are of the highest quality, what the cook does with those ingredients makes all the difference in the world. McD's has defined fast food in this country and many parts of the world but it's just not a place I'm going to encourage anyone to go to. (Even though like you I like the owners I've met)

I've never once ate at McDonalds and marvelled at the freshness of their food. I have marvelled at the tastlessness and the inate ability of their product. I just do not see many redeeming qualities of McDonald's as a restaurant aside from price and speed. I plan to steer my children away from the place like the plague as I certainly don't want to eat there and after seeing the miraculous freshness of their fries in the Super Size Me documentary I have to wonder at the healthiness of the level of preservatives and sodium their food contains.

*edited for grammar

KSeecs, "Freshness" is probably the weakest link in my "quality" definition if you believe that meats shouldn't be frozen or lettuce needs to be same day farm fresh.

My argument is no meat gets scrutinized and tested throughout the production chain quite like McD's.

I'm not defending their preparation, use of sodium, flavoring agents or taste.

I'll even say their burgers are crap products. But they provide an entirely safe crappy eating experience.

KSeecs wrote:after seeing the miraculous freshness of their fries in the Super Size Me documentary I have to wonder at the healthiness of the level of preservatives and sodium their food contains.

You are aware, I assume, that just about any place that serves frozen fries (I'm betting a majority of this city's hot dog stands, Italian beef shops, etc. fit into this category) serves an almost identical product? If you were to fry up some Ore-Ida® Golden Fries® at home, and then place one behind the couch or in that narrow, hard-to-reach spot between the driver's seat & the door sill of your car, it would probably age just as gracefully as a McDonald's fry.

In fact, here are the almost-identical (and equally scary) lists of ingredients for comparison:

McDonald's French Fries
Potatoes, vegetable oil (canola oil, hydrogenated soybean oil, natural beef flavor, citric acid), dextrose, sodium acid pyrophosphate, salt

Ore-Ida Golden Fries
Potatoes, partially hydrogenated vegetable oil (soybean and/or canola), salt, dextrose, disodium dihydrogen, pyrophosphate, annatto (vegetable color)

I'm not arguing with you, of course, that McDonald's fries are a far cry from being a "whole food", and that as far as ideas go, steering kids away from McDonald's as much as possible isn't a bad one. All I'm saying is that McDonald's products aren't all that different from many things that aren't deemed to be as bad, only because McDonald's gets the most attention/scrutiny.

Edited to update McDonald's fry ingredients

Suzy Creamcheese wrote:I have a theory. Is there anyone who enjoys McD's who did not eat it as a child? My mother considered it revolting, and would not allow us to eat there, so my first taste of their food (aside from one Shamrock Shake) was in my 20s. Then I had a brief love affair with their cheeseburger, but it faded quickly and I really have no desire to eat there again. None of their flavors appeal. But it seems like most people my age have a place in their heart for it still.

I've posted this before, but it's something I'm quite proud of. I've never in my life had a McDonald's burger of any sort. It's also beyond my comprehension why anyone in Chicago* would patronize McDonald's (or other establishments of the same ilk) when we have so many independent hot dog/burger places to choose from that serve better quality food. Incidentally, I feel the same way about pizza places like Pizza Hut, Domino's, etc. Why in the Wide World of Sports anyone in Chicago patronizes places like that with the bounty of other, better choices available to them is beyond me.

* I'm not talking about some little town in the sticks, where I understand that chain dining is the only choice, although I would be willing to bet there's at least some type of local diner that would be preferable (unless you're in Julie_Suburban's home town).

is that ingredient list up to date....do they still use partially hydrogenated vegetable oil?

stevez wrote:I've posted this before, but it's something I'm quite proud of. I've never in my life had a McDonald's burger of any sort.

I wish I could state the same thing, I thought a couple year boycott of McDonalds I had going until recently was impressive until I read this. Kudos to you steve.