7 Course Ice Cream Dinner – Conceptual Stage

7 Course Ice Cream Dinner – Conceptual Stage

Preparing for our annual Fourth of July get-together with college friends, The Wife dug up an ice cream maker that had been missing for years. I made some rum raisin and mango mint, and then as my daughter, Josie, nibbled some salmon we’d cured, she noted “You should make salmon and cream cheese ice cream and decorate each bowl with bagel chips.”

Cue: light bulb.

Of course, I thought, I should make some savory ice creams…in fact, I should make a 7 Course Ice Cream Dinner.

Initial thoughts:

1. Vichyssoise: a cold, creamy blend of potatoes and leek, and a good start as it would get guests used to the idea of eating non-sweet ice cream in a relatively familiar, generally recognizable dish.

2. Salmon: thin shreds of fish in a cream-cheesy confection (with bagel chips). Fish ice cream might be a challenge for some…but best to start with salmon and move to stinkier fish.

3. Creamy Caesar: Shreds of Romaine in a garlic cream highlighted with Parmesan, shredded anchovies and lemon. Not sure how to handle croutons…maybe sprinkle on top before serving.

4. Chicken Chorizo: okay, this is pushing it a little, I realize, but remember, this isn’t sweet, it’s just the poultry and a little sausage in a cool cream sauce; I may add a little rice for texture. The chili heat, I believe, would be a welcome tonal shift and might help mitigate the heaviness of all this cream. Maybe serve with home-fried tortilla chips.

5. Dill Beef: a take on an Eastern European dish I’ve had many times, and it seems like an easy transition. I’m thinking the beef might be thinly sliced steak.

…But that’s all I got. I need a few other courses to round out what is for me a magic number 7. A “cheese course,” maybe, with a selection of Roquefort, chevre and others?

For dessert…cookies, of course. I mean really, wouldn’t more ice cream for dessert be going a little too far?

Rick Tramonto, Thomas Keller and others have pushed sorbet into savory town; Heston Blumenthal makes an egg and bacon ice cream (a natural fit, I’d think) and recently Gourmet magazine featured an article about Humphrey Slocombe, a place in Frisco that turns out some innovative savory ice creams: Peanut butter curry, Prosciutto with fennel and black pepper. That’s what I’m talking about. Ice cream; it’s what’s for dinner.

Hammond

An interesting, thought provoking, and fun idea. The main problem I think you might have is that 7 courses of cream, whether iced or not, is just too much. No matter how good they are (and I must admit to having doubts about at least a couple of your ideas), I'd expect people to feel a little queasy by the end.

Nonetheless, I'll play.

For your caesar salad course, how about an ice cream sandwich? I'd juice the lettuce, cook it down to intensify, and puree it into an egg yolky custard that gets a whirl through the ice cream maker. Sandwich that between 2 flat shaped garlic-anchovy croutons.

In the fish course, wouldn't shreds of frozen salmon, however small, have a pretty unpleasant texture? I don't think fish ice cream can work, so I'd focus on a traditional fish accompaniment with a more traditional preparation for the actual sea creature. Perhaps some crispy salmon skin served with a horseradish ice cream, or some such thing.

How about a nod to savory Asian cuisine somewhere in your menu? I'm thinking of thai chili ice cream with a roasted rice coating/ topping.

How about a traditional pasta dish? Tomato-vodka ice cream served with crispy fried noodles.

Kennyz wrote:An interesting, thought provoking, and fun idea. The main problem I think you might have is that 7 courses of cream, whether iced or not, is just too much. No matter how good they are (and I must admit to having doubts about at least a couple of your ideas), I'd expect people to feel a little queasy by the end.

I'm imagining portions would be relatively small -- probably less than half-a-regular scoop of ice cream, so the whole dinner would be a little more than two scoops. The creaminess would be leavened by some of the excellent carbo accompaniments you suggest, such as...

Kennyz wrote:For your caesar salad course, how about an ice cream sandwich? I'd juice the lettuce, cook it down to intensify, and puree it into an egg yolky custard that gets a whirl through the ice cream maker. Sandwich that between 2 flat shaped garlic-anchovy croutons.

Love it. I have not scratched the surface of possibilities such as sandwiches or even cones, two traditional ice cream carriers that should be included. I like the idea of "separating" the anchovies from the ice cream itself, and I appreciate your point about the salmon.

Noodles. Love it, too.

The David Lebovitz book, Perfect Scoop includes a Roquefort & Honey ice cream that has long intrigued me, and I got a pound of Hook's Bleu this month in our CSA so I can try it out...I'll let you know if it goes well. Sounds like a very intriguing concept! We use our ice cream maker at least 2x/week this time of year when the local fruits are so good, and we love trying different flavors. The next flavor I want to play around with is a spicy thai lemongrass/peanut with coconut milk base.

Jenn_in_RoPa wrote:The next flavor I want to play around with is a spicy thai lemongrass/peanut with coconut milk base.

Coconut milk would have been a good addition to the mango-mint I made yesterday.

Spicy ice cream is interesting because the heat would play off ice cream's expected sweetness.

David Hammond wrote:

Jenn_in_RoPa wrote:The next flavor I want to play around with is a spicy thai lemongrass/peanut with coconut milk base.

Coconut milk would have been a good addition to the mango-mint I made yesterday.

Spicy ice cream is interesting because the heat would play off ice cream's expected sweetness.

You could do a fire and ice combination: same combination served as ice cream, room temperature and hot. You could compare and contrast the differences in chili heat in those three states.

Regards,

Cathy2 wrote:

David Hammond wrote:

Jenn_in_RoPa wrote:The next flavor I want to play around with is a spicy thai lemongrass/peanut with coconut milk base.

Coconut milk would have been a good addition to the mango-mint I made yesterday.

Spicy ice cream is interesting because the heat would play off ice cream's expected sweetness.

You could do a fire and ice combination: same combination served as ice cream, room temperature and hot. You could compare and contrast the differences in chili heat in those three states.

Regards,

Kind of like how one appreciates the temperature differential in Hot Potato/Cold Potato. I like it, and "Fire and Ice" is an excellent name for the dish.

Hi,

I think there was a classic cosmetics campaign from the 1950's titled "Fire and Ice." I have always liked the name, too.

Regards,

David, are you considering sorbets as well? As part of the 7 courses or just between some of the courses?
I remember (from a long time ago) an excellent serrano & lime sorbet at Salpicon.

For a smoked salmon course there is a great recipe in the Alinea cookbook (Sour cream; sorrel, smoked salmon, pink pepper; pg 58) with the sour cream made cold with the smoked salmon as shavings. Not exactly 'ice cream' but the textural element of cold sour cream that thaws in the mouth is great.

If you are going Thai - a kaffir lime (leaf) ice cream would be great (in theory; in practice I've made great panna cotta with it)

Just another note - in one of Heston Blumenthal's book there's a note about his vanilla ice cream with chocolate and pistachio in which the taste of the vanilla flavor comes through first and then the chocolate flavors are released (due to differential solubilities of vanilla and chocolate).
Here's a clip
http://www.rsc.org/education/teachers/l ... _video.htm
(scroll down to V12 and click link to video)
The flavors though may be too tame for your purposes, but you could use the trick of mixing/encapsulating other flavors and freezing them with your ice cream...

I look forward to your report.

Question: doesn't ice cream require sugar to reach the proper texture?

sazerac wrote:David, are you considering sorbets as well? As part of the 7 courses or just between some of the courses?
I remember (from a long time ago) an excellent serrano & lime sorbet at Salpicon.

I was thinking of sorbets as the "beverage" portion of the meal; I thought I might sorbetize a few wines and fruit/veg juices.

Those Blumenthal videos are excellent -- a lot of the other videos in this series look fascinating as well.

Mhays wrote:Question: doesn't ice cream require sugar to reach the proper texture?

In the Blumenthal video that sazerac mentions, Blumenthal does mention that sugar is one of the essential ingredients, but I'm not sure if he means essential to the chemical process of creating ice cream. There are sugars in the milk, of course, but I'm not sure if the chemistry requires more sugar than that...though I assume someone here can provide some ilumination there.

Alinea also has a salad granita: frozen juiced greens, shaved, or something like that.
Aha: Alinea At Home's Version.

My guess is that without sugar and without some other sort of stabilizer (eggs, locust bean gum/guar gum), your cream will freeze nearly solid. The only other real option would be to add some alcohol. Of course, a mixture of egg/gum/alcohol will probably get you the desired texture, but I think it'll take a good bit of experimenting.

gleam wrote:My guess is that without sugar and without some other sort of stabilizer (eggs, locust bean gum/guar gum), your cream will freeze nearly solid. The only other real option would be to add some alcohol. Of course, a mixture of egg/gum/alcohol will probably get you the desired texture, but I think it'll take a good bit of experimenting.

Eggs would definitely be part of the equation.

As I often make Ice cream without sugar, I can tell you that sugar-free ice cream turns out rock-solid. As does ice cream made with Splenda (Diabetisweet, which is a mixture of Isomalt and Acesulfame-K, makes a softer ice cream - but I couldn't tell you why.)

The alcohol route would work best, but you can always just warm it a little before serving.

sazerac wrote:For a smoked salmon course there is a great recipe in the Alinea cookbook (Sour cream; sorrel, smoked salmon, pink pepper; pg 58) with the sour cream made cold with the smoked salmon as shavings. Not exactly 'ice cream' but the textural element of cold sour cream that thaws in the mouth is great.

I've edited my earlier post
Doesn't look like it is in "Alinea at home". I've made it though and it is excellent. You can fashion an antigriddle - very very cold substance (I used dry ice; if you can get your hands on some that would be good, otherwise an ice-salt, or an ice-alcohol mixture would work) in an ice bucket with a thin cookie sheet over it.

If you've got some budget room, how about foie gras ice cream with black truffles? Poach some fresh foie gras in cream/ milk combo, puree it, add yolks and cook a custard. Cool, whirl in the ice cream machine and serve scoops with shaved black truffles on top. Why not?

Same concept as above could be applied with any animal liver. Lamb liver ice cream with mint gele? Chicken liver ice cream sandwich on rye cookies? A scoop of beef liver ice cream served with some hot, crispy onion strings?

Sweet corn ice cream with chicharrones sounds good to me too. Maybe a chile-lime syrup to drizzle over it.

I am not sure I approve of this activity. I think I find transforming food ingredients into some completely different type of food to be slightly unnatural. It seems to be a trend, though. I suppose we can blame the inventors of Tofurkey. Have you thought of including courses that simply emulate ice cream form factors, like maybe mashed potatoes and chorizo in a fried tortilla "cone", or a sundae made of scoops of various mashed root vegetables topped with different sorts of gravy?

Anyhow, the creaminess of ice cream is a function of the degree of flocculated fat (mmmmmm). As gleam suggested, adding a stabilizer can help lower fat ice-cream achieve a higher degree of creaminess. I believe that my mother, a retired chemist, uses carrageenan as a thickener in her ice-cream. H. Douglas Goff Ph.D., the professor of Ice Cream at the U of Guelph, seems to favor guar gum (or in combination with carrageenan). Here is a link to a summarized version of one of his publications which has a pretty understandable description of the physical properties and chemistry of ice cream (unfortunately, Goff's book itself, being a textbook, costs $90+ US): http://www.foodsci.uoguelph.ca/dairyedu/icecream.html

There is a section specifcally about the function of sweetners in ice cream. Sugar lowers the freezing point of water, thereby forming fewer and less dense ice crystals, and leaving more unfrozen water in the ice cream. Apparently, adding a stabilizer to the ice cream can also contribute to less ice (as gleam suggested). Professor Goff also details a formula using palm, sunflower and coconut oils instead of milkfat.

d4v3 wrote:I am not sure I approve of this activity. I think I find transforming food ingredients into some completely different type of food to be slightly unnatural. It seems to be a trend, though. I suppose we can blame the inventors of Tofurkey.

We all do silly things sometimes for no better reason than it being fun. I'm quite sure David isn't planning to do this weekly or daily as the makers of tofurkey do (at least I hope not, though though with Hatter Hammond I'm not sure even he can tell ). At the very least it is an interesting mental exercise. Your extrapolation to serve non-ice-cream in ice-cream forms is interesting and a significant expansion - not sure if David will take it up, but this is already a superb thread.

Thanks too for the ice cream link!

sazerac wrote:We all do silly things sometimes for no better reason than it being fun. I'm quite sure David isn't planning to do this weekly or daily as the makers of tofurkey do (at least I hope not, though though with Hatter Hammond I'm not sure even he can tell ). At the very least it is an interesting mental exercise.

I admit I do find it interesting. At least he is not making bacontinis.

I wonder if salt would function like sugar in lowering the freezing point, or would you have to add so much it makes the "ice cream" unpalatable?

d4v3 wrote:I am not sure I approve of this activity. I think I find transforming food ingredients into some completely different type of food to be slightly unnatural.

I agree, it's Unnatural to a degree, but I'm not sure where you draw the line. Does taking a steak, chopping it up, and serving it in tomato sauce over spaghetti render it "completely different"? I can't see how that's quantitatively more different than transforming cold potato leek soup into ice cream -- there are actually fewer steps involved. When people ask me what I thought of the food at Alinea, my usual response is that it's Unnatural. It is. So is having an all ice cream dinner. Comparisons between my work in the kitchen and that of Achatz ends there.

d4v3 wrote: Sugar lowers the freezing point of water, thereby forming fewer and less dense ice crystals, and leaving more unfrozen water in the ice cream. Apparently, adding a stabilizer to the ice cream can also contribute to less ice (as gleam suggested). Professor Goff also details a formula using palm, sunflower and coconut oils instead of milkfat.

Thank you very much for that clarification about, which probably means I should (as some have suggested) think more Asiatic and sweet/hot.

David Hammond wrote:I agree, it's Unnatural to a degree, but I'm not sure where you draw the line. Does taking a steak, chopping it up, and serving it in tomato sauce over spaghetti render it "completely different"? I can't see how that's quantitatively more different than transforming cold potato leek soup into ice cream -- there are actually fewer steps involved. When people ask me what I thought of the food at Alinea, my usual response is that it's Unnatural. It is. So is having an all ice cream dinner. Comparisons between my work in the kitchen and that of Achatz ends there.

David,
I think you know where the line is. If you took that spaghetti sauce and made it into popscicles or breakfast cereal, that would cross it. I didn't even have to mention Achatz as somebody who crosses said line on a regular basis. Of course, it is lots of fun. That is why people pay big bucks for gastrotainment at Alinea. My nephew eats fortune cookies injected with cheese whiz. That may not cross the line, but it certainly bumps up against it.

I've always wondered how you can use another substance to mimic the effect the crystalline structure of sugar and its sticky property(quick, somebody who's a chemist, give me a college-educated-sounding word for sticky) have on cooking.

I never use artificial sweeteners in cooking - except in something like chocolate, where the sweet property of sugar is all you're looking for - because they lack this property, so you don't get the right texture. For instance, many baked goods and most candies depend on stickiness to get the correct mouthfeel (and many of them degrade in flavor when heated.) I also assume the crystalline structure has something to do with it, but d4v3 brings up an interesting point - salt is also crystalline, but not sticky. I have always thought that if someone could come up with a flavorless calorie-free substance that has the properties of sugar, we might be onto something.

(Das - I'm not a fan of BASF, I grew up near their plant in Cincy that exploded, but the linked site is interesting, if not in-depth)

d4v3 wrote: My nephew eats fortune cookies injected with cheese whiz. That may not cross the line, but it certainly bumps up against it.

Yes, how could anyone doctor something as bound to nature as a fortune cookie. It would be like adding seltzer to a glass of Tang. Heresy.

You could do a deconstructed gazpacho--a tomato-olive oil ice cream with tiny scoops of cucumber, bell pepper, red onion, and sherry vinegar sorbets. And to go along with the Spanish theme, you could do a squid ink ice cream & a garlic ice cream (frozen, churned aioli) that are set to melt and sauce some simple grilled seafood and rice.

d4v3 wrote:

David Hammond wrote:I agree, it's Unnatural to a degree, but I'm not sure where you draw the line. Does taking a steak, chopping it up, and serving it in tomato sauce over spaghetti render it "completely different"? I can't see how that's quantitatively more different than transforming cold potato leek soup into ice cream -- there are actually fewer steps involved. When people ask me what I thought of the food at Alinea, my usual response is that it's Unnatural. It is. So is having an all ice cream dinner. Comparisons between my work in the kitchen and that of Achatz ends there.

David,
I think you know where the line is. If you took that spaghetti sauce and made it into popscicles or breakfast cereal, that would cross it. I didn't even have to mention Achatz as somebody who crosses said line on a regular basis. Of course, it is lots of fun. That is why people pay big bucks for gastrotainment at Alinea. My nephew eats fortune cookies injected with cheese whiz. That may not cross the line, but it certainly bumps up against it.

Dave, I think our fundamental difference here is that you seem to not approve of crossing lines and I do -- not that I always enjoy the result. Sure, we all have a general sense of where the line is, but I think part of the well-recognized fun in the restaurants of Chicago's lively molecular gastronomists is that they actively push against the line. In the same way, poetry violates grammar though it could not exist without the lines that grammar creates.

All that said, I'm just goofing off in the kitchen over here.

Your nephew sounds cool...and it's certainly more creative and interesting to create fortune cookie rellenos with Cheez Whiz than it is to blast the unnatural stuff directly into the mouth (which happens).

trixie-pea wrote:You could do a deconstructed gazpacho--a tomato-olive oil ice cream with tiny scoops of cucumber, bell pepper, red onion, and sherry vinegar sorbets.

Last summer I made a few attempts at a (sweet) tomato-olive oil sorbet, but I could never get it to freeze without the olive oil coming out of suspension to make streaks/chunks of frozen oil in the sorbet, no matter how emulsified it looked before freezing. Has anyone successfully made something like this? What could I add to stabilize the emulsion without resorting to eggs or strange chemicals?

My basic method was: Toss some heirloom tomatoes in the blender. Strain out unblended bits. Add simple syrup until it got to the right brix level (using the floating egg method to test brix.) Add olive oil a bit at a time, blending after each addition, until it had a nice rich mouthfeel.

(I finally gave up and used it unfrozen as a marinade and sauce for grilled chicken, which worked surprisingly well, so all was not lost.)

Wow - I *love* the idea of a deconstructed gazpacho - sounds completely delicious on a hot summer day!

I typically use a lot less sugar in my ice creams than called for, and most of the time I just use coconut milk as the base, and it makes a fine custard and has enough fat in it, along with some natural sweetness, and then I just add a couple tablespoons of alcohol before I turn the ice cream...I've only made basil ice cream to date for a truly not-sweet dessert, but I am definitely intrigued by this whole idea.

Tonight I felt I needed to develop a spicy ice cream that would go well with Nobu-inspired miso-marinated smoked chicken that I came across in GWiv’s majestic Low and Slow.

My spicy ice cream recipe:

2 egg yolks
½ cup 1% milk
½ cup cream
¼ cup sugar
¼ cup shelled edamame
½ teaspoon of Sriracha

I served the ice cream -- semi-soft, right out of the ice cream maker -- with white rice and some garden lettuce, dressed with a simple rice vinaigrette.



I dialed back the Sriracha for fear it would be too hot. Now, the reviews are in:

The Wife: “Kind of like it, but not sure where it fits into the world.”
Daughter: “Tastes like something weird got mixed into very creamy ice cream.”

In closing, The Wife proclaimed the dinner “a worthwhile attempt,” but her microexpression suggested mild contempt; Daughter thought the ice cream was good at “good temperature..if it had been hard, it would not have worked with the rest of the food, which was all about room temperature.”

Both The Wife and daughter would have preferred more heat; they thought the ice cream too creamy. I believe I underestimated the power of cream to compete with heat. In addition, I added the edamame beans too soon, and they were semi-frozen in the confection, which was not what I was looking for.

Still learning.

Hammond

David Hammond wrote:Dave, I think our fundamental difference here is that you seem to not approve of crossing lines and I do -- not that I always enjoy the result. Sure, we all have a general sense of where the line is, but I think part of the well-recognized fun in the restaurants of Chicago's lively molecular gastronomists is that they actively push against the line.

On the contrary, I cross lines on a daily basis, but there is a method to my madness (at least in my mind). Actually, I even approve of crossing lines simply for the sake of crossing lines or even just for my own amusement (which I am sure is your intention). I ate my fair share of cheese whiz filled fortune cookies (and liked them).

I was just joking about it being unnatural to make an entree based on a dessert (or is it a dessert based on an entree?), but it is interesting that you describe Alinea's food that way (unnatural that is). I guess I just don't approve of crossing lines as a gimmick (think Marylin Manson). I am not accusing you of gimmickry, but I feel that some professional gastrotainers do employ a fair amount of gimmickry when they mix things up just to be wacky (and make a buck), even when it comes out as bland as an edible menu. Mind you, this is coming from somebody who has never eaten at Alinea, and probably will never go (although I did enjoy Trio) . Don't get me wrong, I am not faulting anybody who finds a way to make a decent living doing something they enjoy. There are just other whimsical and amusing things I'd rather spend that kind of money on.

Anyhow, back on topic, the concept of making ice creams from non-traditional ingredients, brings into question the definition of ice cream itself. The Village Creamery makes ice cream in many non-traditional flavors (like corn, avocado, purple yam and cheese) , but all of their ice creams start out life as real ice cream (ie. milkfat, sugar and emulsifier) before the flavor ingredients are added.