Hello Fool, Welcome to LTHForum.com!

Hello Fool, Welcome to LTHForum.com!

Stop me if you’ve heard this one, because I’ve related the following anecdote a few times over the years.

When I posted on Chowhound for the first time (circa 2003), I wanted to alert the vanguard of Chicago’s food underground (i.e., non-establishment media, populist, web-savvy) about this really cool Italian beef stand I had just visited. It was called Johnnie’s, and perhaps you’ve heard of it. Well, I posted without reading back through the archives of the previous year or so, so I didn’t know, as the judicious Vital Information soon posted back, that “Johnnie’s is a board favorite.” This was a corrective comment, but it wasn’t intended to make me feel foolish or uniformed. I was a newbie, and someone with more board experience was letting me know that I would do well to familiarize myself with the (then relatively brief) board tradition.

On LTH, I get the feeling that new posters are too often met with a combination of suspicion and contempt, that the burden of proof is sometimes on them to prove that they’re honest and genuine food enthusiasts, but that too much enthusiasm is not really welcome, and that first-time posters would do well to dial-back their joy and soberly report without unseemly zeal. The paradox is that first-time posters frequently are motivated to post because they found (or in my case, think they’ve found) a new place that they’re really excited about sharing with the new-found tribe. And with our now relatively lengthy board tradition, it might be challenging for new posters to familiarize themselves thoroughly on a topic before posting.

I am not referring to any specific incident on this board, so please don’t take this personally if you’ve responded somewhat dismissively to new posters – it happens all the time, and I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it, too. It may even be a natural and expected response from the knowledgeable and connected community we’ve become. Many of us are now so acculturated to each other’s thinking and food preferences that a new organism in our midst may be viewed as a foreign invader, sparking an immune reaction, the antibodies of which express themselves as snidery.

Anyway, all’s I’m saying is, when new people post, my personal feeling is that it’d be good for them and, ultimately, good for the LTH community if we give them the benefit of the doubt, assume the person is genuine (though use the report function if you seriously believe they’re not), and if you feel they’re off track, give them a nudge in what you know is the right direction.

It may be difficult for many of us to remember what it was like posting on LTH the first time. It may not have been easy for some; many times, a person will post and announce that they’ve lurked for years. Why the long-term lurking? Well, I wouldn’t want to think it was because of the chilly reception some new posters receive.

Good point.

My first ever food board post was something along the lines of, "Hey, I really like Restaurant X. I think it has the best X in town. What do other people think?". Now, looking back, that looks silly and sort of shill-y. Fortunately, no one called me out, I kept reading other posts, and eventually got the lay of the land.

I'm sure as LTHForum continues to grow in popularity there will be both more shills and well-intentioned first-time posters who happen to sound like shills. Not sure what the solution is other than to let the mods do their jobs when it comes to the shills.

Amen, Amen and Amen. Way too many attack dogs lately . . . maybe it's the economy . . . maybe the cold weather this summer in Chicago, but it has gotten out of hand. When posting here, I ask myself whether I'd be comfortable saying face-to-face what I am writing on the forum.

As someone who is relatively "new" with a low post total, I'll chime in on this.

David Hammond wrote:On LTH, I get the feeling that new posters are too often met with a combination of suspicion and contempt, that the burden of proof is sometimes on them to prove that they’re honest and genuine food enthusiasts, but that too much enthusiasm is not really welcome, and that first-time posters would do well to dial-back their joy and soberly report without unseemly zeal.

I have to say I didn't feel much of the above when I first posted - I felt generally welcomed, and that my questions, mostly in the gardening forum, were well received and answered with kind hearts.

I think the most important key for a new member is to read, read, and read some more. I've spent the past six months reading every thread in the shopping/cooking forum in my free time (I just recently finished). Not only did I learn a lot about cooking, but I also learned to use the search function. That seemed to me to be important to the more established members, and looking back I can see where the regulars would not want to chime in on yet another subject that had been hashed and rehashed months earlier in multiple threads. Without that direction, I wouldn't have known that.

Plus, what's wrong with a little bit of suspicion? If a shiny new poster is going to be turned completely off by a semi-flip answer from someone with 2500 posts, maybe this isn't the place for him or her. Maybe the internet isn't the place for him or her. Because really - how do you know what you're going to get from someone with 5 posts? The answers and discussion here are serious and passionate, complete with well-thought out and lengthy replies. I can see where one wouldn't want to waste time on someone who hasn't proven that they're going to properly appreciate the answer or suggestion. That seems like human nature to me.

I like it here, I'm staying. I probably won't get to meet many of you, being geographically undesireable as I am, but you're going to see me lurking, and learning. I feel like my reception here was properly tepid and I'm grateful for that.

My only regret so far was that no one seemed to appreciate my cavernous/carniverous play on words in the 33 Club thread. But that's OK by me.

As someone who's been totally guilty of the "semi-flip" suspicious response, I do recognize that it's a totally uncool thing to do.

I do have to admit, if I see a review from a first-time poster that simply says, "XYZ Restaurant serves the BEST taco in the city, my boyfriend & I went there, it was so good. Try the flan on Wednesdays, and the churros on Thursdays, and enjoy half-price beers on Mondays", I will jump onto Google and search for phrases from the review, the poster's username, and the e-mail address from their profile. In the past, if I found any evidence that the poster was a shill, I would prepare a snarky response...lately, I've simply been notifying the moderators by reporting the post.

If I don't turn up any evidence that the poster is a shill, then I make myself assume that they are, as David suggested, well-meaning folks who are pumped about XYZ Restaurant and want to spread the word, and aren't familiar enough with the culture here to mimic the level of detail often found in veteran members' posts.

My first post here was a long, detailed one, partly because I'd lurked here for quite a while and had seen how most posts are structured, but mostly because I'm a big-mouth, but I was fortunate to have received a friendly, welcoming response that encouraged me to stick around & keep posting (by the way, thanks for that, Kennyz ).

DeathByOrca wrote:If a shiny new poster is going to be turned completely off by a semi-flip answer from someone with 2500 posts, maybe this isn't the place for him or her.

It's too easy to underestimate how intimidated some people might feel about posting on an internet chat site...and it's similarly easy to underestimate the egos of some food writers who feel that they are rightly the last word in specific areas of culinary discussion and expertise.

I think it's better to err on the side of being generous with new posters.

I guess I have not really noticed newcomers being treated badly(if it has happened it is not right). I have however seen some obvious shills quickly exposed, & I think the board as a whole does a good job of policing itself imho.

as a side note when I read the subject for this topic I thought it was going to be about Mr. T., I was kind of disappointed.

David Hammond wrote:Anyway, all’s I’m saying is, when new people post, my personal feeling is that it’d be good for them and, ultimately, good for the LTH community if we give them the benefit of the doubt, assume the person is genuine (though use the report function if you seriously believe they’re not), and if you feel they’re off track, give them a nudge in what you know is the right direction.

Ditto, ditto, ditto, and ditto. I am pleased to read this and even more pleased to be able to second it. The attack dogs seem to be cyclical but I can recall more than a few threads begun in all innocence that left me either mortified or shaking my head in amazement. It doesn't happen often, thankfully, but we need to ensure that it doesn't happen. It's too easy to pick apart a new contributor's post and too often we forget that there is a board "style" of writing that encompasses all kinds of unspoken assumptions. I'm very pleased to read this and, even more so, that it is written by someone so closely connected with this site. Thank you, David.

Thanks, David, for the thoughtful post.

I think that even if your shilly-sense is tingling and you feel absolutely certain that a new poster is shilling (or being disingenuous in some way), it's best to give the benefit of the doubt. New posters may not have a great sense for the subtleties of our community dynamic but that shouldn't be a barrier to their jumping in here. We want our forums to hold as many diverse opinions as possible.

But beyond that, and nearly as important, I heartily urge everyone here to use the 'Report' button if they have an issue with any given post. Doing so keeps the thread focused on the topic at hand, which is important. The last thing we want to do is detract focus from an establishment by bickering over the genuineness of posts about it. Doing so runs completely counter to our intended mission.

=R=

What Gypsy Boy said, and I too say thank you, David for reminding us about treating strangers with kindness. What is that saying?*

But let's not let this turn into an unpleasant discussion of whether, who, what, when, why, or how newcomers have been treated brusquely on occasion. Let's focus on the food.

* Back from a quick google: "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." -Hebrews 13:2

My view is probably pretty unpopular.

I agree with many of the well-said sentiments in this thread, but I wouldn't want to see them carried out too far. Giving first time posters a welcoming response is a fine idea, but there comes a point where I think it's good that they get chided. LTHForum is a different place than other internet forums. While I agree with Ronnie that diversity of opinion is good, I would be turned off if the many well thought out, thorough, and insightful posts got diluted by a myriad of "This place is yummo" posts, and 150 threads that say "Where do You find the best steak" filled with 150 one word responses that say Gibsons. What comes across as harsh also serves what I think is a useful purpose here. As LTHForum grows, there is a risk that it will just become like Yelp, Chowhound, Metromix and the rest of them. Personally, I'd rather err on the unwelcoming side than see that happen.

Kinda timely

I think trust and credibility with the seniors of any board/blog/forum is developed and earned over time, with frequent and varried posts. But being new on any board however, does not necessarily mean that someone is new to critiquing or lacks experience on a given topic.

New posters typically don't know just how quirky the established personalities of any board will be, or what will rub a group a certain way.

And it's not really a requirement to read everything on a broad prior to posting on a particular topic, in fact, it can be quite a voluminous undertaking to do so, and really a brief familiarity should suffice.

While I had been an Internet poster for many years before joining LTH and lurked and contributed on many other boards as well. I always joined assuming that I was going to be contributing and documenting my opinion in a public forum and nothing more. So I dont really give a crap what anyone else thinks is behind or motivating my own musings and typing. I guess I learned something from all that over-moderated crap at Chowhound!

Newbies however might get spooked by the more senior folks with snarky replies and be intimidated out of ever contributing again, and that's a shame. As that new person just might hold the key to your next favorite dining experience or food passion discovery.

Its about opinion, and any new persons opinion is as valid as anyone else's, period. Shills always die out, they only post on one place/topic, and usually just once or twice and then they fade off. Its simply not even worth the effort to track them.

That being said, LTH does seem to have a hypersensitive, maybe even bordering on almost psychotic sensitivity to shills. One that can leave some new and genuine posters with a feeling of being dis-trusted and in some cases even some unwelcoming responses. Not that I quite experienced it directly, but there is that certain persona that does run though the veins of a few posts and replies here.

I would recommend to any new LTH'r what SW Side Jim recommended to me when I finally jumped onto this board; "go to a few events and meet some of the people, LTH actually encourages it". It does makes things more personable, and its harder to be rude or mistrusted by someone who you've already met.

Kennyz wrote:I would be turned off if the many well thought out, thorough, and insightful posts got diluted by a myriad of "This place is yummo" posts, and 150 threads that say "Where do You find the best steak" filled with 150 one word responses that say Gibsons. What comes across as harsh also serves what I think is a useful purpose here. As LTHForum grows, there is a risk that it will just become like Yelp, Chowhound, Metromix and the rest of them. Personally, I'd rather err on the unwelcoming side than see that happen.

The customs and character of LTH militate against this possibility. When people post threads like "Hey everybody, where can I get good toast?!" they're frequently ignored or responded to by just a few people. People should be allowed to post whatever kind of questions they want, of course, and the self-regulating nature of the community, built up and reinforced over the years, will lead to worthy questions getting lots of attention and less worthy questions getting less. It's a very natural, spontaneous mechanism that requires no ill will to operate (though a little passive aggression might help now and again ).

Kennyz wrote:As LTHForum grows, there is a risk that it will just become like Yelp, Chowhound, Metromix and the rest of them. Personally, I'd rather err on the unwelcoming side than see that happen.

I know many suggest that Chowhound, Metromix and Yelp are worthless, but I don't think that's the case at all. Same with Zagat, Tripadvisor, etc. On any site (even this one), there are opinions that are helpful and those which simply do not further a discussion or provide useful information concerning the chosen topic. I agree that it can be frustrating (and I'm not excepting myself as a possible guilty party at one time or another) when reading a review which simply says "loved it," but we're all able to filter the information as we desire, and ultimately find enough quality information on this site to continue to read and post. And as we use the site more, and we know each other's tastes, reputations, likes/dislikes, we're better able to determine whose opinions we trust and do not trust. I'm guessing most people posting on LTH prefer LTH because it contains more detailed information than can be found on similar or somewhat competing sites.

But when traveling to a different state or country, I sometimes find that more useful and more extensive information can be found on Chowhound than LTH, all depending upon how many of each site's users have visited or live in the location I'm visiting.

BR wrote:

Kennyz wrote:As LTHForum grows, there is a risk that it will just become like Yelp, Chowhound, Metromix and the rest of them. Personally, I'd rather err on the unwelcoming side than see that happen.

I know many suggest that Chowhound, Metromix and Yelp are worthless, but I don't think that's the case at all. Same with Zagat, Tripadvisor, etc. On any site (even this one), there are opinions that are helpful and those which simply do not further a discussion or provide useful information concerning the chosen topic. I agree that it can be frustrating (and I'm not excepting myself as a possible guilty party at one time or another) when reading a review which simply says "loved it," but we're all able to filter the information as we desire, and ultimately find enough quality information on this site to continue to read and post. And as we use the site more, and we know each other's tastes, reputations, likes/dislikes, we're better able to determine whose opinions we trust and do not trust. I'm guessing most people posting on LTH prefer LTH because it contains more detailed information than can be found on similar or somewhat competing sites.

But when traveling to a different state or country, I sometimes find that more useful and more extensive information can be found on Chowhound than LTH, all depending upon how many of each site's users have visited or live in the location I'm visiting.

The nice thing about LTH is that the opinions are at least from Chicagoans who are typically far more discerning when it comes to food than *most* of the other areas of the country. I find Roadfood only slightly more helpful than Chowhound when traveling.

David Hammond wrote:Hello Fool, Welcome to LTHForum.com!

On LTH, I get the feeling that new posters are too often met with a combination of suspicion and contempt, that the burden of proof is sometimes on them to prove that they’re honest and genuine food enthusiasts, but that too much enthusiasm is not really welcome, and that first-time posters would do well to dial-back their joy and soberly report without unseemly zeal. The paradox is that first-time posters frequently are motivated to post because they found (or in my case, think they’ve found) a new place that they’re really excited about sharing with the new-found tribe.

Guilty as charged!

I was a long time lurker whose first post was very effusive/lengthy and drew a bit of heat, but I was lucky enough to have a good friend who was a regular poster here to "vouch" for me and to have several other long timers reach out. I was the classic bumbling fool first time poster, no doubt about it. In retrospect, I probably would have picked something else for my first post as the reaction I got (which I entirely understand now) almost scared me off LTH entirely. Almost. I'm too stubborn for my own good and am very happy I stuck around and didn't slink off with my tail between my legs.

David Hammond wrote:Anyway, all’s I’m saying is, when new people post, my personal feeling is that it’d be good for them and, ultimately, good for the LTH community if we give them the benefit of the doubt, assume the person is genuine (though use the report function if you seriously believe they’re not), and if you feel they’re off track, give them a nudge in what you know is the right direction.

Good advice for any internet forum, thanks for the thoughtful post, David!

BR wrote:

Kennyz wrote:As LTHForum grows, there is a risk that it will just become like Yelp, Chowhound, Metromix and the rest of them. Personally, I'd rather err on the unwelcoming side than see that happen.

I know many suggest that Chowhound, Metromix and Yelp are worthless, but I don't think that's the case at all.

I'm not saying so much that they're worthless, just that I'm glad LTHForum represents something different from them. I'd like that to remain so.

Hi,

Well as a very newbie (this would be post #3), I will admit to being apprehensive about posting. I've lurked for a long time and gotten some great restaurant ideas. I was born and raised in Chicago (NW side) and love this city, and eating, and I enjoy the sharing of knowledge and information.

However, at least for right now, unless I'm sure I can say something the "right way" I may decide not to say anything at all. Won't keep me from lurking and considering a post. I'm also waiting for another LTH eats event that will fir my schedule, and hope to meet and get to know people better (and vice versa).

Mary

P.S. Sorry for typos. I'm trying to function with a broken finger.

I think KennyZ's opinions on this are yum-o!

Just thought I would weigh in as a long time lurker who has finally been motivated to register. As is the case with posting on any board for the first time, “lurk before you leap” and utilizing the search function (something I've done to a ridiculous extenet) is never a bad idea and will eliminate most issues.

Re: the hospitality of the board to newcomers, from what I’ve seen a first time post along the lines of “I love this place, the food was delicious” is generally responded to with reasonable replies such as describe what you had and why you liked it, or in the case of a common request or often discussed restaurant, the op is directed to other threads of interest.

In the end, the main draw of the board has been the transparency of the opinions presented and feeling you get when you realize just about everyone that posts is just really into eating and cooking great food.

Alek

Kennyz wrote:My view is probably pretty unpopular.

I agree with many of the well-said sentiments in this thread, but I wouldn't want to see them carried out too far. Giving first time posters a welcoming response is a fine idea, but there comes a point where I think it's good that they get chided. LTHForum is a different place than other internet forums. While I agree with Ronnie that diversity of opinion is good, I would be turned off if the many well thought out, thorough, and insightful posts got diluted by a myriad of "This place is yummo" posts, and 150 threads that say "Where do You find the best steak" filled with 150 one word responses that say Gibsons. What comes across as harsh also serves what I think is a useful purpose here. As LTHForum grows, there is a risk that it will just become like Yelp, Chowhound, Metromix and the rest of them. Personally, I'd rather err on the unwelcoming side than see that happen.

I agree, and would still like to see your response as to your expertise in the area of French Creole Cooking.

Kennyz wrote:My view is probably pretty unpopular.

I agree with many of the well-said sentiments in this thread, but I wouldn't want to see them carried out too far. Giving first time posters a welcoming response is a fine idea, but there comes a point where I think it's good that they get chided. LTHForum is a different place than other internet forums. While I agree with Ronnie that diversity of opinion is good, I would be turned off if the many well thought out, thorough, and insightful posts got diluted by a myriad of "This place is yummo" posts, and 150 threads that say "Where do You find the best steak" filled with 150 one word responses that say Gibsons. What comes across as harsh also serves what I think is a useful purpose here. As LTHForum grows, there is a risk that it will just become like Yelp, Chowhound, Metromix and the rest of them. Personally, I'd rather err on the unwelcoming side than see that happen.

Well, to be clear, I'm a fan of diversity. Vapidity? Not so much.

=R=

I am in agreement with the spirit of this post. My own daughter had the experience of being shot down with her first post, and she won't post again. Too bad, because she has a great deal to contribute related to foraging. One of the things the regulars know is to disregard the comments of the pricklier posters and to read the posts of people who they find helpful. (Though the pricklier posters can be very entertaining at times.)

Still, Kennyz raises an interesting point about the dilution of content. One of the things that works against dilution is the "popular" thread flashing icon. Another thing that works against it is the GNR designation, and the categorization of posts that takes place by design when people bring up old threads to add to, or create indices such as those done by Aaron Deacon and Bridgestone and LAZ.

I do appreciate the work of the moderators to keep mean-spirited posts to a minimum and to organize the content. I suspect this is a thankless job at times, so thank you, mods.

Thanks David for your post. As a newbie, I have been intimidated. I certainly do not have the food knowledge of many of the people on the board, but I do have certain knowledge and am always ready and willing to learn more. While some have been very welcoming (gotta love Cathy 2), I've have felt the sting as the result of a post. Perhaps I was being a bit sensitive, but it's a bit demeaning to get snarky comments because you're not as knowledgable as others. I'm in a different place in my life than others here, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy a great meal and have a love for all things food.

Thanks for listening,

Ms. Ingie

Interesting topic.

Have to say that I think people get treated very fairly by this forum, whether they are first time posters or something more than that.

In one of the responses above it's mentioned that shills only post once or twice and then disappear. I think that people genuinely interested in taking part in a conversation and who have something to say won't be put off by what could be perceived as an initial cold response.

I don't know you all personally, but "cold" is not a description that I would land on after poking about this board. Capable of an occassionaol offputting post, sure. But not cold.

And I've personally experienced the commendable fairness of this board in welcoming disparate opinions. Which just isn't common to food/culinary boards.

This board does have a culture and a hierarchy as any forum of its kind would have. And I've begun to be fascinated with how that operates in a biological sort of way. I am keenly interested when a discussion gets shut down (and also when it gets turned back on). Interested in what new posters post and how senior posters' posts are responded to. Interesting stuff.

And what's really clear is that its a serious board. So first time or other posters who aren't signalling that they are taking their readers seriously might increase the chances of being slammed. I think its the seriousness of the board that reflects the general thoughtfullness of the posters that prevents this from becoming the weekly Chowhound "who has the best deep dish....UNO's or DUE's?"

This extends to treating inclusiveness in a deliberate and thoughtful manner (the OP is yet another example of this). There might be a little pushback on new posters, or for an idea out of the LTH mainstream, but that is short-lived if the opportunity to debate and discuss something new or interesting is detected.

I welcome and second Hammond's post but have to say that in a way I regard as altogether positive, my experience has been the inverse of that described.
Going back to Chowhound and then at the birth of LTH I posted blithely about whatever struck me, either initiating or responding to others. It was fun with only the occasional smack-down. Over time I have found myself far more often thinking twice and even thrice before posting. Not because it's a board full of bullies, but because it seems to me that the bar has been raised very high for really having something to say, having some actual knowledge to back it up, and taking care to say it as well as one can.
It is much less a place for "well, that's just my opinion so, whatever..." than many other places.
Just the prevalence of great photo-illustrations turning into almost a given indicates a seriousness (in the best sense, not pompousness) that one doesn't see elsewhere.
Sure there's still room for the drive-by thumbnail review. By we see more and more careful, elegant, full-fledged essays.
For me, that makes it more intimidating to post. And I say, amen.

jimswside wrote:I guess I have not really noticed newcomers being treated badly(if it has happened it is not right). I have however seen some obvious shills quickly exposed, & I think the board as a whole does a good job of policing itself imho.

"Obvious shills" are obvious to those pretty entrenched in the site's culture, and to some others, but maybe not to more occasional passersby or other more timid lurkers. To met, the danger in unwelcoming or harsh responses is less in losing the original poster--who maybe isn't the kind of poster who would enjoy this place anyhow--but in creating an intimidating environment for potential new posters.

These unwelcoming, harsh, or flippant responses are a small minority--by and large, this is an astoundlingly warm, erudite, welcoming, and tolerant community. But negative experiences (and observations thereof) have an amplified effect.

Aaron Deacon wrote:
"Obvious shills" are obvious to those pretty entrenched in the site's culture, and to some others, but maybe not to more occasional passersby or other more timid lurkers. To met, the danger in unwelcoming or harsh responses is less in losing the original poster--who maybe isn't the kind of poster who would enjoy this place anyhow--but in creating an intimidating environment for potential new posters.

thats why I leave the role of identifying, or calling out these posters to others.

Overall I find the crowd at LTH tough at times, but fair.

I have a soft spot for Chowhound (it's where I met many of the folks I now consider good friends), but I just checked for the first time in a while and 4 of the first 5 posts are all on the order of "Coming to the Windy City. Need Recs." Compare this to the data-giving posts on LTH. I am not making this point to lord it over Chowhound, but to compare the cultural differences between that community and the more mature, largely self-regulating community we have, which has, as mentioned, a relatively high bar set (a good thing for those of us who want the board to be more than an information booth for out-of-town visitors).

Years ago, the august Vital Information described Chowhound as being so much "gimme, gimme, gimme." I think the high percentage of "coming to town; what should I eat?" posts is indicative of this drive-by, grab-the-info-and-run attitude that is probably due, in part, to the fact that Chowhound is a national board, so Frisco hounds feel comfortable tapping into Chicago board resources...maybe without doing their homework. And the Chowhound model is built, in part, on these naive questioners driving discussion. It's a different culture.