The Holy Grail of Hops

Dogfishead 120 minute IPA...You never had anything this good before. It's $54 a six pack so you know it's 6 to 10 times better tham most beers

Somehow I can't get into it. For me, their sweetspot is probably the 60 or 90 minute IPA. The 120 minute is, for lack of a better descriptor, too INTENSE. And I think the alcohol content (~18% ?) is far higher than what I want to taste in a beer, but I guess that's just me.

I don't know that price is the best indicator of quality -- Sam Adams Utopia beers cost $100-150 per 24oz. bottle. Would you say it's 50 times better than most beers?

I agree that the alcohol content is more of a turn-off than anything else (same thing with Founders' Devil Dancer and Dark Horse's Double Crooked Tree). Half a bottle into it and I'm feeling really drowsy.

For me, if I want hops, FFF does it best. Their dreadnaught is sublime but also a hop monster. Lagunitas recently put out a 22oz. bomber of something called Hop Stoopid -- the hops here are mostly in the nose so the drink itself is much more balanced.

Sam's had a few 12 oz. bottles of beer from Mikkeller that used a single hop variety. I saw one with Warrior hops and another with Cascade. This was a very interesting idea and really helped me get a sense of what it means when you read a list of hop varieties present in a given brew. Per their beer list online, they also have a Simcoe hops bottle, as well. USA!! USA!! USA!!

danimalarkey wrote:I don't know that price is the best indicator of quality -- Sam Adams Utopia beers cost $100-150 per 24oz. bottle. Would you say it's 50 times better than most beers?

I don't know if it is, but I do want to try .... I just can never find someone to sell me a bottle.

SSDD

I agree that the alcohol content is more of a turn-off than anything else (same thing with Founders' Devil Dancer and Dark Horse's Double Crooked Tree). Half a bottle into it and I'm feeling really drowsy.

I must have morphed into one of those hopheads because the Dark Horse DCT is my new favorite beer. The one time I tried the 120minute (because I found it at $8 for a 12oz. bottle as opposed to the $10 I usually see it priced at) I found it so hopped that it had trancended hoppiness - it was more like a nectar/syrup that punches you in the face. The 90 minute is more my speed.

Another nicely balanced, really good hoppy beer is Two Brothers Hop Juice.

Fellow hopheads - I tried the 120 minute Dogfish Head last fall and I couldn't finish it. It was so astringent I thought my head was going to turn inside out. But I digress...

I had an American-style IPA last week - by O'Dells of Fort Collins, CO - that has become my new favorite and I wanted to share:

http://www.odellbrewing.com/beers/classics/ipa.aspx

After the pour, the aroma of fresh hops is so intense that I felt it must smell this way going down the rows of mature hops while they're being harvested. I am not prone to embellishment, but this may be the best balanced IPA I've had - the maltiness of the brew is a perfect foil for the bitterness imparted by the hops.

The bad news is that my friend who was kind enough to share it with me - and quite a student of the brew - says production is kinda small and distribution is mainly in Colorado. But if you can get your hands on a bottle, don't pass this one up.

Cheers,
Davooda

Davooda wrote:Fellow hopheads - I tried the 120 minute Dogfish Head last fall and I couldn't finish it. It was so astringent I thought my head was going to turn inside out. But I digress...

I had an American-style IPA last week - by O'Dells of Fort Collins, CO - that has become my new favorite and I wanted to share:

http://www.odellbrewing.com/beers/classics/ipa.aspx

After the pour, the aroma of fresh hops is so intense that I felt it must smell this way going down the rows of mature hops while they're being harvested. I am not prone to embellishment, but this may be the best balanced IPA I've had - the maltiness of the brew is a perfect foil for the bitterness imparted by the hops.

The bad news is that my friend who was kind enough to share it with me - and quite a student of the brew - says production is kinda small and distribution is mainly in Colorado. But if you can get your hands on a bottle, don't pass this one up.

Cheers,
Davooda

Right on with this one. I love the aroma of this beer. Unfortunately Missouri is the closest state that they distribute to.

Another Hop Monster that we can't get here is Pliny the Elder from Russian River. I love that beer.

You guys are where I was a few years ago but as you're collective pallets become more sophisticated you'll eventually only want the very best, and thats the 120 minute..It's like slicinging into a juicy hop nugget. And the alcahol does not dominate the flavor like in another favorite of mine, the Chimay blue. I'm convinced that if you put a cooler full of 120's in the middle of a frat party everyone there would die of alcahol poisoning because it goes down so easy yet it packs an incredibly tremdous punch.

danimalarkey wrote:I don't know that price is the best indicator of quality -- Sam Adams Utopia beers cost $100-150 per 24oz. bottle. Would you say it's 50 times better than most beers?

For conisuers like me, most definately. It's like a fine cognac

De gustibus non est disputandum, suum cuique, etc.

Out of curiosity, how did your "pallet" evolve to "conisuer" level? Do you work in the beer/spirits industry? Taken some courses? Lifetime of sampling different & exotic beers?

On another note, at the Huron St. Whole Foods yesterday, saw a whole variety of super-hoppy beers (judging from the fact that they had the word "Hop" in their names & rather frightening label art) in the beer chill chest. Also saw a 3-4 Dark Horse varieties, but I couldn't remember the names you guys had mentioned, so I couldn't verify if DCT was among them.

I apologize in advance for ending this post on a heretical note, but I just can't get into IPAs. More of an ale & stout guy myself, though I enjoy the occasional porter.

Khaopaat wrote:De gustibus non est disputandum, suum cuique, etc.

Out of curiosity, how did your "pallet" evolve to "conisuer" level? Do you work in the beer/spirits industry? Taken some courses? Lifetime of sampling different & exotic beers?

Thanks for asking-I'm a high end home brewer with over 4 Blue Ribbons to my name..Here's my utopia clone..It's coming up on two years old- it's aging in my cellar now- just 10 more years to go..

Khaopaat wrote:De gustibus non est disputandum, suum cuique, etc.

Out of curiosity, how did your "pallet" evolve to "conisuer" level? Lifetime of sampling different & exotic beers?

Exactly

http://s230.photobucket.com/albums/ee13 ... ea4b22.pbw

WTf is a "high end home brewer"?

Jamieson22 wrote:WTf is a "high end home brewer"?

I only clone the best beers, Chimay's, Dogfisheads, Dead guys, and my home creations...To put it in laymans terms I can brew Miller Light for $6 in ingrediants, New Castle for $15, but I use so much grain and hops that my creations typically cost between 40 and a $120 to brew..Only the best.

Silas Jayne wrote:

Jamieson22 wrote:WTf is a "high end home brewer"?

I only clone the best beers, Chimay's, Dogfisheads, Dead guys, and my home creations...To put it in laymans terms I can brew Miller Light for $6 in ingrediants, New Castle for $15, but I use so much grain and hops that my creations typically cost between 40 and a $120 to brew..Only the best.

Sounds like you need to find cheaper places to buy your grains and hops. For $120 I could brew a 10 gallon batch that used a 55lb sack of grain and > 6lbs of hops.

Khaopaat wrote:De gustibus non est disputandum, suum cuique, etc.
Out of curiosity, how did your "pallet" evolve to "conisuer" level? Do you work in the beer/spirits industry? Taken some courses? Lifetime of sampling different & exotic beers?

Khaopaat, do you also enjoy shooting fish in a barrel?

Obviously, there is no one "best" beer. For me, the best beer is the one in the glass in front of me. I've had my fair share of 15% - 20% ABV beers ... to my mind, they're interesting experiments, but they're not really true to what beer is all about, historically. My personal preference is for session beers, although on rare occasions I will brew a higher alcohol beer. I do generally load them up with hops, which is actually easier in moderate-alcohol beers.

I was lucky enough to be able to sit down with Doug and Tracy Hurst yesterday (owners, brewmasters, custodians, chief cooks and bottle washers, and otherwise all-around Grand Poo-Bahs at Metropolitan Brewing), and we talked a little about hops and their beers. For them, it's all about balance, complexity, and maybe even subtlety. A beer doesn't need to scream at you to be good.

Or maybe my "pallet" hasn't evolved to "conisuer" levels yet.

Khaopaat wrote:I apologize in advance for ending this post on a heretical note, but I just can't get into IPAs. More of an ale & stout guy myself, though I enjoy the occasional porter.

Of course, IPAs, stouts and porters are all ales (and there's quite an overlap between what are commonly considered porters and stouts), but if you're saying you're not into hop bombs, I can understand that. They can fatigue the "pallet" pretty quickly.

And, not to play the "Quien es mas macho" game, I'm not a "high-end home brewer", but I did just count seven blue ribbons for my beers on the wall down in the basement. Okay, I lied. The ribbon from the CBS' Spooky Brew Review was a first place, but its color is closer to purple than blue.

It would be great to get some brewing discussions going that involved substance over bluster.

Jamieson22 wrote:

Silas Jayne wrote:

Jamieson22 wrote:WTf is a "high end home brewer"?

I only clone the best beers, Chimay's, Dogfisheads, Dead guys, and my home creations...To put it in laymans terms I can brew Miller Light for $6 in ingrediants, New Castle for $15, but I use so much grain and hops that my creations typically cost between 40 and a $120 to brew..Only the best.

Sounds like you need to find cheaper places to buy your grains and hops. For $120 I could brew a 10 gallon batch that used a 55lb sack of grain and > 6lbs of hops.

These are only the finest imported grains, barely's and hops..LOL, you won't find them at your local brew nieghborhood brew store. And guess how much grain is involved in brewing Dogfishead 120's?

Silas Jayne wrote:These are only the finest imported grains, barely's and hops..LOL, you won't find them at your local brew nieghborhood brew store. And guess how much grain is involved in brewing Dogfishead 120's?

Wow, must be expensive to import American grown hops to make Dogfish Head 120. I mean with the increased cost of exporting them to Europe (I guess Europe since that is where all the finest things come from) and then importing them back to the US. You are totally "high end"!

And a 10 gallon Dogfish Head clone uses about 32 pounds of base malt. Will there be an essay portion to the quiz???

nr706 wrote:It would be great to get some brewing discussions going that involved substance over bluster.

Thinking the same thing bro...I just made a High Altitude Cream Ale using a Lager Yeast that is just about four days from being bottled..I have a tentative tasting date of September 13, 6:20 pm when Devin Hester runs the opening Kick off back on the Packers.. And I like to condition my ale's for at least 6 weeks..I find my ales peak after about two weeks in my 32 degree fridge..

I'm Calling it "Jay Cutler Cream Ale"..

Jamieson22 wrote:

Silas Jayne wrote:These are only the finest imported grains, barely's and hops..LOL, you won't find them at your local brew nieghborhood brew store. And guess how much grain is involved in brewing Dogfishead 120's?

Wow, must be expensive to import American grown hops to make Dogfish Head 120. I mean with the increased cost of exporting them to Europe (I guess Europe since that is where all the finest things come from) and then importing them back to the US. You are totally "high end"!

And a 10 gallon Dogfish Head clone uses about 32 pounds of base malt. Will there be an essay portion to the quiz???

Hold on son...I don't use extracts...I haven't for 12 years...

Silas Jayne wrote:These are only the finest imported grains, barely's and hops..LOL, you won't find them at your local brew nieghborhood brew store.

So, along with barley, you're using other grains - adjuncts? Do you need to use six-row to convert them? And, why do you feel you need to use imported grains and hops? Briess, up in Chilton, WI is certainly among the world's finest maltsters. I also get some great malts from Rahr, in Minnesota. Which maltsters do you prefer? And I think many of the hops from Washington are the equal or better than many of the European hops, depending on the hop profile you're going for. Is your experience different?

Also, have you ever considered using a spell-checker?

For the last time...I don't use Malt Extracts..Never would..Thats not even brewing beer in my opinion..You might as well be using the Mr Beer setup if you use somebody elses extracts..

I wasn't asking about extracts - although, well handled, some decent (but not great) beers can be made with extracts. (Check out Ch.3 of the highly authoritative book "Designing Great Beers," by Chicagoan Ray Daniels.) That said, I don't use extracts, either. But you seemed to make a distinction between barley and grains, which is why I asked you about adjuncts.

nr706 wrote:I wasn't asking about extracts - although, well handled, some decent beers can be made with extracts. That said, I don't use extracts, either. But you seemed to make a distinction between barley and grains, which is why I asked you about adjuncts.

Listen...I've brewed barely wines, rice beers, sorgum and even molassas brews..I've been doing this for over 20 years..There's nothing I haven't tried. All my ingrediants including my water are the finest on earth..I live 10 miles from the comtental divide on a 67 acre ranch and my land in fed exclusively from snow melt, and my well is 1200 feet deep..I grow my own hops as well


Award winning Pumpkin ale 11%

Fresh water- This creek runs right through my property

Silas Jayne - Don't get me wrong - it's great to have experienced brewers and beer geeks here on LTH. There are other great brewers here on LTH, also. But when you use terms like (sic) "All my ingrediants including my water are the finest on earth," you have to expect a little pushback. The water from Burton-on-Trent is vastly different from the water in Pilsen - and each contributes its own character to the local brew. There is no "finest on earth" water for making all beers, although there might be "finest on earth" waters for making particular styles of beer. Waters aren't that tough to adjust, anyway, for particular beer styles.

I'm sure you're a very good brewer. I'd be happy to exchange homebrews with you sometime, if you get to the Chicago area. But I hope you'll acknowledge that there are others here on LTH who know a bit about brewing, too. (And I'm anxiously awaiting JimTheBeerGuy's take on all this.)

Puppy wrote:Somehow I can't get into it. For me, their sweetspot is probably the 60 or 90 minute IPA. The 120 minute is, for lack of a better descriptor, too INTENSE. And I think the alcohol content (~18% ?) is far higher than what I want to taste in a beer, but I guess that's just me.

Agreed. The 120 IPA is a fun treat every once in awhile (when you want a seriously high alcohol, hoppy beer), but their best is the 90-minute IPA. The 60 is okay, but the 90 is really special. If I were to rank my three favorite imperial IPAs, they would be Three Floyd's Dreadnaught, Goose Island's Imperial IPA, Dogfish Head 90-minute IPA, and Stone Ruination. Dreadnaught has the most amazing nose of any beer I've drank. It's a bit over-the-top, but in a good way.

I find my ales peak after about two weeks in my 32 degree fridge

Isn't that a little too cold?
Drinking quality beer at that temperature dulls the flavors.
Bud/Miller/etc, on the other hand, should be as cold as possible - for the same reason.

JasonM wrote:Isn't that a little too cold?
Drinking quality beer at that temperature dulls the flavors.
Bud/Miller/etc, on the other hand, should be as cold as possible - for the same reason.

At home I am serving 4 kegs of homebrew in a chest freezer controlled with a digital temperature controller. I set it for 33 with a 4 degree swing, so generally the amibient temp inside is 32-37 degrees and I'd guess the beer is in the middle of that range.

When I pour a beer it is into a 74 degree pint glass behing held by 98.6 degree hands. It very quickly comes up to a proper temperature.

Any beer that is poured at a proper drinking temperature will quickly become too warm. I always think a beer poured at a temp below proper temperature will spend more time in the perfect drinking range.

Silas Jayne wrote:

Jamieson22 wrote:

Silas Jayne wrote:These are only the finest imported grains, barely's and hops..LOL, you won't find them at your local brew nieghborhood brew store. And guess how much grain is involved in brewing Dogfishead 120's?

Wow, must be expensive to import American grown hops to make Dogfish Head 120. I mean with the increased cost of exporting them to Europe (I guess Europe since that is where all the finest things come from) and then importing them back to the US. You are totally "high end"!

And a 10 gallon Dogfish Head clone uses about 32 pounds of base malt. Will there be an essay portion to the quiz???

Hold on son...I don't use extracts...I haven't for 12 years...

Up until this point in the thread, the word "extract" had not been used. You are not being accused of using extracts. "Base malt" means the malt from which the majority of your fermentable material is extracted and is generally used to refer to the actual malted barley rather than a liquid or powdered extract. I think you might need to settle down a tad or at least read more carefully. Someone who has been brewing for 20 years (well done, I myself have only been brewing for 9 or so) should recognize the term "base malt."

I enjoy brewing "high end" stuff too--strong Belgian ales, barleywines, etc--but mostly I brew session beers because mostly that's what I drink. I disagree with your assertion that a sophisticated palate will only seek out the strongest flavors--they have their place, certainly, and I enjoy a good double IPA or Imperial Stout, but a) only drinking very strong beers makes you drunker quicker, resulting in fewer beers being consumed and thus less enjoyment, b) a sophisticated palate is more capable of detecting fine distinctions in flavor, thus making the wild excesses of extreme beers superfluous, c) just as someone who only enjoys action movies, or only enjoys hour-long police procedurals on TV, or only enjoys fantasy novels to read, would be considered somewhat one-dimensional, unsophisticated and even boring, so is someone who only drinks one kind of beer, no matter how excellent that one kind of beer is.

nr706 is one of the more knowledgeable people about beer that I know and he has made some very excellent points, and I'm not sure I could improve on too many of them. Your enthusiasm is admirable, but your claims of excellence are a bit at odds with some of your other assertions. I don't want to make too many assumptions, so why don't we just talk about beer with less of the dick-swinging? and if you really are as excellent as you seem to think, I'm sure we'll all be convinced before long.