I somehow managed to not see this thread at all until this morning. I'm obviously one of the less-desirables since I never even got the spam

That said, it's been a fascinating time spent reading this entire thread from first post to last in the space of 15 minutes. (The first two pages speak volumes about this community, both good and bad, but I think I'll leave that all alone for now.) I'm very sorry to have missed the dinner and would be curious about the next.

ronnie_suburban wrote:Cynthia,

You're a fairly seasoned diner. Did you encounter any techniques that were new to you at this meal?

Nothing new -- but I did say "younger" people, which pretty much disqualifies me. Clearly, all the youngsters who were helping Andrew had no prior experience of the techniques. I suspect that there is a whole world of people out there who have never even considered shelling out $200 per person for dinner, and most lower-level restaurants aren't doing the high-end techniques.

ronnie_suburban wrote: As for pursuing dreams, heaping praise on Andrew for this meal seems disingenuous to me.

I didn't heap any praise on the meal, other than the ingredients -- great veggies and cheese. Otherwise, I only praised the enthusiasm and the goals. (Because the veggies were great. Well, and I did think the puff pastry balls were tasty, but so did Kennyz. And the mojito shot, which even you described in glowing terms.) I haven't mentioned any other food.

ronnie_suburban wrote: Attaining some dreams, like cooking, requires more than gumption. It requires training and experience. I wholly applaud Andrew's pursuit of his dreams and feel that getting additional training would be the single best thing he could do to achieve them. Advising anything else would be incorrect and unrealistic, IMO. In fact, if he were my son, that's exactly what I'd advise him to do.
=R=

I agree. He has a lot to learn. Who of us didn't at 23? But I think he also has a fun idea (the whole arts community thing) that people in his age group can enjoy for a reasonable price. The food was wholesome, the vibe was cheerful and energetic. I don't think anyone has suggested, however, that he doesn't need to continue developing his skills.

So we really aren't in as much disagreement as you seem to think.

On a new note about this, I had signed up for the July 11th Soylent Fuchsia dinner because spamming aside it seemend like an interesting menu, I was eager to see how an event would work at Kitchen Chicago, and I'm always on the lookout for a nice BYOB dinner.

The July 11th event was postponed to July 25th and just now when I went to the website to double check the start time it claims that Soylent Fuchsia has been postponed due to to "ineffable events". The first time this was postponed I got an email letting me know the new date. This time - nothing. If I hadn't checked the website I would have shown up at Kitchen Chicago on Saturday with my husband in tow and a couple of bottles of nice wine to be greeted by.....nothing.

I'm only hoping that Andrew Forlines does the stand-up thing and refunds the money I spent (and everyone else's as well). I'll keep the forum up to date - but until then, buyer beware for any future events run by this fellow.

Tobermory wrote:I'm only hoping that Andrew Forlines does the stand-up thing

He does. Kennyz posted a clip upthread.

Hi,

Just the other day, I remembered never hearing anyone comment about the early July dinner. I hope everything resolves in your favor.

Regards,

cilantro wrote:

Tobermory wrote:I'm only hoping that Andrew Forlines does the stand-up thing

He does. Kennyz posted a clip upthread.

<golf clap> Brilliant.

Ineffable - that word he uses, I do not think it means what he thinks it means.

I do note that a photo gallery of the first event, including a picture of Kennyz and bride, is now up, full of things to eff.

http://soylentfuchsia.com/photographs.aspx

I do hope Andrew is able to pull together a big enough group to warrant a second dinner, though I also hope he finds the right audience. I thought everything was at least tasty, if not always stellar (though, as noted previously, there were some very bright spots -- wonderful ingredients, a few great dishes, and the fish was perfectly cooked, which is not easy to do for a crowd), but it was everything surrounding the food that made the evening really lovely and fun -- the ideas, the people, the energy, the music and images, the enthusiasm. I could imagine this becoming a regular outing for a slightly younger crowd (not necessarily as young as Andrew, just younger than me), especially as the arts side of it grows.

I still never received any kind of communication from Mr. Forlines - either regarding the cancellation of the 2nd dinner and certainly not regarding the refund of the cost of the two tickets I had purchased. Looks like I'm out $100. I can't find any way to contact Mr. Forlines to ask about a refund - any suggestions? I'm thinking a call to Kitchen Chicago might be in order - I realize it's not their fault, but I assume they don't want to be renting out their space in the future to someone who takes people's money and then doesn't refund it.

Tobermory wrote:I still never received any kind of communication from Mr. Forlines - either regarding the cancellation of the 2nd dinner and certainly not regarding the refund of the cost of the two tickets I had purchased. Looks like I'm out $100. I can't find any way to contact Mr. Forlines to ask about a refund - any suggestions? I'm thinking a call to Kitchen Chicago might be in order - I realize it's not their fault, but I assume they don't want to be renting out their space in the future to someone who takes people's money and then doesn't refund it.

His email address is at the bottom of his posts. Did you try that?

Tobermory wrote:I still never received any kind of communication from Mr. Forlines - either regarding the cancellation of the 2nd dinner and certainly not regarding the refund of the cost of the two tickets I had purchased. Looks like I'm out $100. I can't find any way to contact Mr. Forlines to ask about a refund - any suggestions? I'm thinking a call to Kitchen Chicago might be in order - I realize it's not their fault, but I assume they don't want to be renting out their space in the future to someone who takes people's money and then doesn't refund it.

good luck to you, I know I'd be none to happy thinking I was out $100.

did this guy ever post again with a follow up to his 1st dinner attempt(I dont think I missed it,)? If he didnt thats not very cool.

I just sent out an e-mail to Kitchen Chicago warning them of doing business with him in the future and I'll send him an e-mail now. It's a shame - I though it was a great idea and now I'll be wary of ponying up for something similar in the future.

Just let your credit card company know that you were charged for goods you didn't receive. They'll take care of it.

=R=

Unfortunately, I paid by PayPal. I'm not sure if I have any recourse through them.

Tobermory wrote:Unfortunately, I paid by PayPal. I'm not sure if I have any recourse through them.

I think you do. They have a buyer protection plan, but there is a time limit, so report this ASAP.

Ronnie is right about what to do, of course, but I'm a little amused by surprise at the possibility that someone young trying to pull off an Alinea-sized dinner party for the first time might not prove to be as completely reliable as an established brick and mortar restaurant. Look, it's an underground dinner! Back in the 70s this would have been like going to the Aardvark for a show of Stan Brakhage or Michael Snow experimental films and then complaining that they were kinda pointless and low-budget next to Patton. You want the transgressive, hipster experience, it's going to be missing some of the niceties of established restaurants, like actually happening. You want guarantees in life, go see Howard Keel in Show Boat at the Drury Lane. You want to be a cool cat who's in with the in crowd, you can go to a happening at The Savage I and watch two hours of a be-in! If it cost you $100 to be a cool cat, whether or not you actually ate anything, you got your money's worth. What's food got to do with it?

Mike G wrote:Ronnie is right about what to do, of course, but I'm a little amused by surprise at the possibility that someone young trying to pull off an Alinea-sized dinner party for the first time might not prove to be as completely reliable as an established brick and mortar restaurant.

I was thinking along the same lines but more that, I'm not surprised that someone who overpromised about his dinner but underdelivered on those promises, not to mention, aggressively attempted to sell that dinner by arguably unscrupulous means, also did not refund money paid on a dinner that he cancelled.

Mike raises a good point, though, any underground dinner is buyer beware, except for possibly The Wandering Goat series because Stephanie Izard has a reputation to maintain.

Thanks for the suggestion - I did go to PayPal to open a ticket for resolution. Looks like they won't automatically refund the money, but they will contact him to try to get the money refunded.

I disagree with the people who sort of said, eh, it was an underground dinner - expect to take your chances. I paid $112.50 for nothing. Not even an e-mail to say - hey do you mind if I hold this until the next event I plan - which I would have been willing to do. I can understand the tenuous nature of the event, but not refunding money is not cool. If 'eh' was everyone's opinion then hey, let me plan a little dinner party, take your money and then cancel and not refund it - it sounds like a great business plan.

Tobermory wrote:I disagree with the people who sort of said, eh, it was an underground dinner - expect to take your chances. I paid $112.50 for nothing. Not even an e-mail to say - hey do you mind if I hold this until the next event I plan - which I would have been willing to do. I can understand the tenuous nature of the event, but not refunding money is not cool. If 'eh' was everyone's opinion then hey, let me plan a little dinner party, take your money and then cancel and not refund it - it sounds like a great business plan.

As one of those people, I'll say that I certainly sympathize with you being out the money and it undisputable that the honest thing for Forlines to do is refund your money. But the point about undergrouund dinners is that, central to the concept of an underground dinner is that they are run by folks who pick up and move, so they could be here one day, gone the other. In other words, although they have the moral duty to deliver on what is paid for, there's inherently some risk there. It's like - if you were stopped by a guy on the street who said, I have a car for you, just deposit $50 into my account, would you be surprised if you never saw or heard from him again? But if he had a brick and mortar dealership, at least you know where the guy is, or have a teensy bit more recourse than in the prior example . . .

The risk here seemed to me that the meal might be bad, not that the money would be pilfered (which is not to say that it has been). When going through such conventional channels as paypal, the 'back alley' aspects of the transaction and experience are all but negated, IMO. There's nothing rogue or edgy about this. It's just bad business.

=R=

Hi,

Back when this saga began, I read an article germain to how events were developing, but thought it was premature to offer it.

At Kendall College's cafeteria, they often have free copies of Sizzle: The American Culinary Federation Quarterly for Students of Cooking. In their summer edition, there is an article titled, "Top 10 Biggest Mistakes: Chef's divulge early career errors and how you can avoid them."

Mistake #1 Overzealous

When the opportunity to own a restaurant presented itself, Homaru Cantu assumed he was ready. After all, at the time, he had line-cook and sous-chef experience. "The restaurant lasted nine months," says Cantu, who now is chef/owner of Moto in Chicago. It failed because everyone involved was too inexperienced. It was too big to handle."

Looking back, Cantu recommends opening a restaurant on someone else's watch. "Be a line cook for as long as you can."

Sage advice offered for free.

Does anyone happen to know the restaurant Cantu opened first?

With brief details, the other nine mistakes:

Mistake #2 Product ignorance
New cook is inspired to make ice cream with flowers found in the refrigerator. Later learned they were $55 a bag.

Mistake #3 Overambitious
Resist the urge to move up to grill/saute chef or kitchen manager before mastering your craft. The higher level jobs also require monitoring productivity of your co-workers. "Take time and learn as much as you can while your responsibility is low."

Mistake #4 Using diners as guinea pigs
"It's easy to get carried away with over-the-top dishes. All chefs need to remember that they cook for consumers - not themselves." Recommended testing dishes with focus groups and staff, before guests.

Mistake #5 Forgetting basics
While making panna cotta for a festival, he accidentally boiled buttermilk causing it to separate. "I was angry and embarassed, but have not boiled a drop of buttermilk since."

Mistake #6 Inadequate communication
Accepting a line cook position in an Italian restaurant without realizing the entire kitchen spoke Italian and he didn't. He learned a bit of Italian. "I should have spent more time observing the kitchen when I interviewed, then maybe I would have noticed the Italian."

Mistake #7 Forgetting your status
Young culinary students believe they can be a 'superstar' before learning the fundamentals. "In reality, a culinary degree prepares you for more education. ... New graduates need to realize that they are the 'new kid on the block' and should seize the opportunity to soak up the educational and professional opportunities surrounding them."

Mistake #8 Burning bridges
"No matter how much you dislike a job, give proper notice and leave it professionally. The industry is not big. You will always want to leave a position respectfully." It included advice on staying on a job for at least a year and not hopscotch.

Mistake #9 Unrealistic salary expectations
"To work with 'name' chefs, you need to take a job doing anything. ... The ability to add that 'name' to your resume is huge. It is invaluable to work with a genius chef, even if you are just peeling potatoes." Build a solid resume and reputation, the money will come.

Mistake #10 Inability to think for yourself
Ask questions in school. In the work place, take notes, study at home and come prepared to work.

I think Cathy2's stuff is good -- and might even be viewed as encouraging, given that Homera Cantu had an early set-back followed by considerable success.

I do think a lot of the rest is over-reacting.

First, regarding never sending money to anything but a brick and mortar operation -- pretty much say good-bye to all LTH events. Sure, we have our anniversaries, special dinners, and holiday parties at real places, but that's not where the money gets sent. It gets sent to someone you probably don't know. Most planners have gotten stiffed by no-shows often enough that few folks still plan costly events without getting the money up front. Sometimes you just have to take chances, or nothing happens.

Second, it has only been a couple of weeks since the July 11 party was rescheduled, and only a few days since the July 25 party was canceled. If Forlines is trying to reschedule, of course he wouldn't have sent back the money by this time. That said, it is foolish of him not to communicate. But the first dinner party showed that his intention was to have a dinner party, not to scam the public. Sure, try to get your money back, but calling Kitchen Chicago and "warning" them about this guy is a bit much. You've probably now made it impossible for him to reschedule the party.

Cynthia wrote:Sure, try to get your money back, but calling Kitchen Chicago and "warning" them about this guy is a bit much. You've probably now made it impossible for him to reschedule the party.

Such is life. It's not something I'd have done but it was a reasonable thing to do. I don't believe that a person whose money's been collected and not returned for a dinner that's now been cancelled twice owes the cancelling party any courtesy whatsoever, especially when direct correspondence to the cancelling party has gone unanswered. I personally wouldn't be making excuses, apologies or concessions for Mr. Forlines. And calling Kitchen Chicago seems like a fair way to prevent the current set of annoyances from happening to others.

=R=

It'll probably prevent a lot of things from happening to others.

Like LTHers getting invited to the next underground event.

Honestly, I think paying money for a second dinner like this when the first one hasn't even happened yet was really sticking your chin out. To then react in high dudgeon and toss legal threats around-- strictly from Squaresville, man. Anybody comes in their gray flannel suit to my happening and complains about the movie not making any sense and the smell of funny cigarettes in the air, they can get straight back on the train to Levittown. Totally L-7.

Mike G wrote:Totally L-7.

How "L7" am I? I had to look this up in Urban Dictionary

I dunno...$112 isn't chump change to me. If someone, from my perspective, took my money & then skipped town for three weeks, I'd be pretty livid & out for blood too. Some of you may be more patient or in-the-know than me, but I don't think I'd be able to keep up the "oh well, it's called 'underground' for a reason, there's a risk that shady things might happen" attitude - I'd be too busy finding ways to get my money back, and if that fails, burning this guy.

Relatively speaking, I think Tobermory has been pretty calm & reasonable in dealing with this issue.

Khaopaat wrote:

Mike G wrote:Totally L-7.

How "L7" am I? I had to look this up in Urban Dictionary

I dunno...$112 isn't chump change to me. If someone, from my perspective, took my money & then skipped town for three weeks, I'd be pretty livid & out for blood too. Some of you may be more patient or in-the-know than me, but I don't think I'd be able to keep up the "oh well, it's called 'underground' for a reason, there's a risk that shady things might happen" attitude - I'd be too busy finding ways to get my money back, and if that fails, burning this guy.

Relatively speaking, I think Tobermory has been pretty calm & reasonable in dealing with this issue.

I agree 100% with you on this one....

whats the saying...? dont f with my money.

Obviously I'm being tongue in cheek about this, and in the same situation, I would pursue whatever my reasonable options were.

At the same time, I'd have some perspective about what I'd just done. This whole underground restaurant thing is very hot at the moment and part of what makes it popular-- you only have to read the many articles on secret restaurants in NY and SF to see this— is a sense that you're doing something hipper and edgier than boring old people who just go to a restaurant that has, you know, signage and a lease and permanent staff and all that. And then people get surprised that it doesn't run as smoothly as Blackbird or, for that matter, Cheesecake Factory— that some dude's loft is not as nice a place to eat as a Suhail-designed room, that some guy cooking in his kitchen once a month is not as accomplished as people who run a restaurant six nights a week sixteen hours a day, that service is off or things are a little flaky and so on. Wow, who could have foreseen that? I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!! You want the reliability of an established restaurant, maybe you should be going to... wait for it... restaurants.

I attended one some months back (linked above) and though it had some good features, all in all I felt like the level of accomplishment was by no means as high as, say, Mado, which was doing many of the same things (using whole animals from sustainable farms and whatnot), and where clearly much of what's good about the place is rooted in the fact that they do it night after night and get discernably more accomplished month after month. These one off events can be very good, and I'm curious to attend a Drunken Goat one eventually, but there's a lot of hype in this whole scene too, and complaining too hard that the hype balloon blew up in your face, well, I have to tell you that Windows 7 will not make your life magical and the 2010 Lexus will not make every drive an S-curve through redwoods, either.

The thing that bothers me the most about this whole thing (beginning to end) is that Mr. Forlines aggressively marketed to this community, defended his concept, received some good support in the form of attendance, garnered some praise and some constructive criticism, all after claiming to be part of this community....

Forlines wrote:I am merely one community member addressing another.

....and has now disappeared.

Lame.

Mike G wrote:It'll probably prevent a lot of things from happening to others.

Like LTHers getting invited to the next underground event.

Honestly, I think paying money for a second dinner like this when the first one hasn't even happened yet was really sticking your chin out. To then react in high dudgeon and toss legal threats around-- strictly from Squaresville, man. Anybody comes in their gray flannel suit to my happening and complains about the movie not making any sense and the smell of funny cigarettes in the air, they can get straight back on the train to Levittown. Totally L-7.

Fully tongue-in-cheek, right Mike G? Otherwise, I just don't get it.

The mollycoddling that Forlines has received from some posters is strange enough. ("That's ok sweetie, you sure tried hard to create a special event. Your exuberant spirit, blah blah blah.") But now, we're going to reserve judgment? Forlines took money, canceled his event, and has failed to communicate with the people who paid in advance. In my book, this is enough to convict, even if he plans to eventually pay back the money or hold a rescheduled event.

Enough already. Soylent Fuscia is PNG as far as I am concerned.

--Rich

edit: Mike G beat me to the post by acknowledging his tongue-in-cheekness. I Figured as much.

Mike G wrote:Obviously I'm being tongue in cheek about this, and in the same situation, I would pursue whatever my reasonable options were.

At the same time, I'd have some perspective about what I'd just done. This whole underground restaurant thing is very hot at the moment and part of what makes it popular-- you only have to read the many articles on secret restaurants in NY and SF to see this— is a sense that you're doing something hipper and edgier than boring old people who just go to a restaurant that has, you know, signage and a lease and permanent staff and all that. And then people get surprised that it doesn't run as smoothly as Blackbird or, for that matter, Cheesecake Factory— that some dude's loft is not as nice a place to eat as a Suhail-designed room, that some guy cooking in his kitchen once a month is not as accomplished as people who run a restaurant six nights a week sixteen hours a day, that service is off or things are a little flaky and so on. Wow, who could have foreseen that? I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!! You want the reliability of an established restaurant, maybe you should be going to... wait for it... restaurants.

Unless I've missed something, no one is asking for money back for the event they attended. The complaints are all geared to the event that was canceled. I completely agree with the sentiment in the paragraph above. But it doesn't seem applicable to the situation here. (Unless I've missed something.)

Correct. Fully tongue in cheek. As fully as this comment or this one, likewise directed at people whose expectations of restaurateurs are absolutely reasonable under the circumstances.