Kennyz wrote:I get the feeling that they were really expecting (or at least hoping for) some extra special treatment that other patrons don't get. It sounds like they wanted to be treated differently from the rest of us. When the restaurant didn't provide that, they might have been disappointed. It's possible that that disappointment colored the whole experience, even if the diners don't even realize it did. I'm left to think that the review might tell more about the diners' expectations than about the restaurant itself.

Steve Plotnicki's 2005 Avenues review seems instructive.

I'm bothered by the idea that the chefs need to be seen and heard by the diners. If I wanted to eat with Rocco DiSpirito, I would. This whole "celebrity chef" thing has gotten out of hand. Great chefs are great because of the quality of their cooking and the quality of the food coming out of their kitchen. But I've been to many a great restaurant (fine dining and more casual) where the chef is never seen and I have no problem with that. They're chefs, not movie stars. And to the extent New York chefs and restaurateurs are willing to provide more of a rock star experience, good for them - I'll stay here.

And after having the write-ups of this evening at L.20, I must also assume that the review of the food was affected by the restaurant's failure to give rock star treatment to the "critics."

G Wiv wrote:

Kennyz wrote:I get the feeling that they were really expecting (or at least hoping for) some extra special treatment that other patrons don't get. It sounds like they wanted to be treated differently from the rest of us. When the restaurant didn't provide that, they might have been disappointed. It's possible that that disappointment colored the whole experience, even if the diners don't even realize it did. I'm left to think that the review might tell more about the diners' expectations than about the restaurant itself.

Steve Plotnicki's 2005 Avenues review seems instructive.

Wow. That really does provide all of the context I need.

G Wiv wrote:Steve Plotnicki's 2005 Avenues review seems instructive.

"Instructive" indeed. I will confess I've never heard of Mister Plotnicki. While I understand and even am grateful for different approaches to fine dining, it appears that Mr. Plotnicki's approach is so distinctive that I.... Well, I'll confess that words fail me. And perhaps that's just as well.

Its an interesting diversionary approach to focus on Steve Plotnicki. Mr. Plotnicki did not write my review; I did. I can assure you, I am in no way Mr. Plotnicki.

Again, I would like to hear comments from folks who have dined at L20 personally, preferably in the last six months.

Just to take one example: what do you think about being charged a supplement of $25 for a course you returned?

Last comment: Is it really that threatening to hear a critical comment about a local restaurant? Hard to believe how sensitive a topic this is--most haven't even been to the restaurant, they focus on someone who didn't even write this review (and who may well not agree with my views). Wow.

I don't think anyone is taking issue with your (or anyone's) opinion of the restaurant. It's the circumstances under which that opinion was developed that people are taking issue with. You'll find plenty or criticism of L2O here.

DutchMuse wrote:Just to take one example: what do you think about being charged a supplement of $25 for a course you returned?

Depends on the situation. If I were a restaurant manager and these were diners that I wanted to be absolutely certain would never return, I might make it $250 instead of $25.

GAF wrote:
Diver Scallops with Blueberries

Champagne-poached buttery Arctic Char with Chantrelles and Zucchini

Lobster Medley with Tarragon Gelee

beautiful pictures GAF,

one of the many things I love about LTH is getting to live vicariously thorough members posts and pictures of restaurants I will probably never get to go to.

Kennyz wrote:

DutchMuse wrote:Just to take one example: what do you think about being charged a supplement of $25 for a course you returned?

Depends on the situation. If I were a restaurant manager and these were diners that I wanted to be absolutely certain would never return, I might make it $250 instead of $25.

I do think that we largely separated the evaluation of the food from the disappointment with the communication. There was much of the food that was brilliant (the scallops, the foie gras), some that was impressive but flawed (the char), some was very competently prepared but unadventurous (the perfectly prepared Grand Marnier souffle), and some was not successful (the salt cod). And I should note that the experience also did not affect the gratuity to our captain negatively (perhaps positively), which was generous.

jesteinf wrote:I don't think anyone is taking issue with your (or anyone's) opinion of the restaurant. It's the circumstances under which that opinion was developed that people are taking issue with. You'll find plenty or criticism of L2O here.

^ This.

Dmnkly wrote:

jesteinf wrote:I don't think anyone is taking issue with your (or anyone's) opinion of the restaurant. It's the circumstances under which that opinion was developed that people are taking issue with. You'll find plenty or criticism of L2O here.

^ This.

Yep, that ^

=R=

Wow, this thread is always manages to entertain. If not for the great pics, the interesting discussion.

First my credentials. I have dined at L20 numerous times (and I know that I get special treatment because I go regularly, which is why I don't regulary comment on L20. My dining experience is certain to be different from yours). I have had some amazing meals there and some merely great meals. I do find the 4 course is generally more enjoyable than the tasting menu, I can't always commit to 5 hours of dinner and my wife prefers to order her courses.

Based on how I read your review it seems like you asked for something special and the front of the house worked to accomodate that request. There seems to be some miscommunication in that you each received distinct dishes each course and that wasn't the special treatment that you had in mind. However you were afforded the chance to try a significant portion of the menu which is pretty special.

I have found the front of the house can be too accomodating there and this can lead to some snafus. They should have just told you no and we wouldn't be on page three of discussing your review and not the food. But maybe you would have knocked them for that, who knows?

Also, and this is just my sense and I could be way off base, but it does seem to me like maybe your group expected a full comp for dinner? At least that's the feeling I get from "they knew who were were; it was for a national publication"

One final note, the kitchen will do special meals, they're just for special events such as the salon wine/sake dinners. If you can attend one, I highly recommend it as a way to see the kitchen take risks and offer an unique experience.

As always, YMMV.

DutchMuse wrote:Its an interesting diversionary approach to focus on Steve Plotnicki. Mr. Plotnicki did not write my review; I did. I can assure you, I am in no way Mr. Plotnicki.

Again, I would like to hear comments from folks who have dined at L20 personally, preferably in the last six months....

Last comment: Is it really that threatening to hear a critical comment about a local restaurant? Hard to believe how sensitive a topic this is--most haven't even been to the restaurant, they focus on someone who didn't even write this review (and who may well not agree with my views). Wow.

I agree with jesteinf. No one is accusing you or your review of being or even emulating Mr. Plotnicki. However, the circumstances of the dinner are the circumstances of the dinner.

Further, since you're under the impression that we're "threatened to hear a critical comment," you might be interested to read my take on a special dinner that was less than universally enjoyed. I note that the dinner was almost exactly seven months ago and so doesn't quite fall within the six-months you're seeking. I'm hardly alone in being critical of my experience here. A fairly brief persual of posts will disclose others.

Paul Barman wrote:Wow, this thread is always manages to entertain. If not for the great pics, the interesting discussion.

First my credentials. I have dined at L20 numerous times (and I know that I get special treatment because I go regularly, which is why I don't regulary comment on L20. My dining experience is certain to be different from yours). I have had some amazing meals there and some merely great meals. I do find the 4 course is generally more enjoyable than the tasting menu, I can't always commit to 5 hours of dinner and my wife prefers to order her courses.

Based on how I read your review it seems like you asked for something special and the front of the house worked to accomodate that request. There seems to be some miscommunication in that you each received distinct dishes each course and that wasn't the special treatment that you had in mind. However you were afforded the chance to try a significant portion of the menu which is pretty special.

I have found the front of the house can be too accomodating there and this can lead to some snafus. They should have just told you no and we wouldn't be on page three of discussing your review and not the food. But maybe you would have knocked them for that, who knows?

Also, and this is just my sense and I could be way off base, but it does seem to me like maybe your group expected a full comp for dinner? At least that's the feeling I get from "they knew who were were; it was for a national publication"

One final note, the kitchen will do special meals, they're just for special events such as the salon wine/sake dinners. If you can attend one, I highly recommend it as a way to see the kitchen take risks and offer an unique experience.

As always, YMMV.

Aside from the speculation that we expected to be comped for the dinner, which was not the case (I wish!), Paul's post makes a lot of sense.

For those who, like me, don't know, YMMV = Your Mileage Might Vary.

DutchMuse wrote:Just to take one example: what do you think about being charged a supplement of $25 for a course you returned?

You wrote:

The salted cod with caviar was very salty and I actually did not eat my portion and mentioned to the GM that it was too salty. Disappointingly, I saw that I was charged the $25 supplement for this dish, even though I told him I did not like it.

It doesn't sound like you returned it. What did the GM say when you said it was too salty?

DutchMuse wrote:Is it really that threatening to hear a critical comment about a local restaurant? Hard to believe how sensitive a topic this is--most haven't even been to the restaurant, they focus on someone who didn't even write this review (and who may well not agree with my views). Wow.

I think you misunderstand. No one here finds your critical comments about a restaurant, local, foreign or otherwise, "threatening" - most of the responses have focused more on the demands-for-special-treatment portions of your review. If you click around, I think you'll find that this board is populated with folks to love the actual food aspect of dining, and seek out great food at all levels, including but most definitely not limited to "NYT 4 star" and "Michelin ***".

What you won't find much of are folks who demand celebrity treatment or consider their names being "known" to be their ultimate dining goal. I for one find that sort of mentality rather distasteful...but what do I know, rarely does anyone know my name when I dine out. To each his own, I suppose.

Last comment: Is it really that threatening to hear a critical comment about a local restaurant? Hard to believe how sensitive a topic this is--most haven't even been to the restaurant, they focus on someone who didn't even write this review (and who may well not agree with my views). Wow.

Hey, who dese guys from outta town who come in and knocka our French chef?

Moddaratas, trow dem bums out! We gotta stan up for our Frenchy!*

* * *

Many years ago I had the privilege, once in my life, of dining under the rarefied circumstances of which GAF speaks. It was at a noted San Francisco restaurant, to this day a four-star establishment. The fine wine flowed like caviar and the water tasted like foie, or something like that. However, there was a crucial difference vis-a-vis the above story: the guy who made all this possible, a dandified, somewhat slippery fellow of foreign extraction and perhaps questionable monetary sources, got us this special treatment by liberally larding the establishment and its staff with his boodle. He probably dropped at least an extra G if not 2 or 3 just on the desire to be treated like royalty-- Saudi in particular-- which impressed me with the smoothness with which it was transacted (on both sides) even if it did not, necessarily, strike me as quite worth the price. Nevertheless, if it was what you wanted, there was no question that he knew the cost, paid it happily, and received satisfaction for money spent.

Some years later we were visiting Napa and went to Michael Chiarello's Tra Vigne for dinner. We were sitting in the anteroom when I happened to notice a set of cowboy boots walking past. My first thought was that this was a bit rough even for a technically rural part of California. My second thought was, hey, didn't I just see a guy wearing cowboy boots at the Oscars? I looked up and it was Billy Bob Thornton, fresh off his screenwriting Oscar for Sling Blade, and Laura Dern, whom he was dating at the time pre-Angelina.

A few minutes later both our parties were seated and we happened to land right next to the stars, who were fawned over by the staff fairly disgustingly. (Though to their credit, our service didn't suffer as a result.) And she— second-generation Hollywood— proceeded to do the Get Shorty thing of refusing to order off the menu and instead creating some dish of her own which, in actress-diet fashion, contained practically nothing tasty to eat, only healthy stuff. (It was not unlike the vegan meal Chiarello had to prepare for another actress on a recent Top Chef Masters.) By the end of the evening, it seemed clear that she was the only person in our two parties, and maybe the whole restaurant, who didn't like what she had to eat at Tra Vigne.

It seems to me that it is one thing to drop a wad and expect exceptional treatment, the world was ever thus and fine dining only moreso, but it's an odd combination of presumption and naivete to expect that you can go into a top drawer (or nearly) restaurant, drop only your name and the vast influence you wield as some guy with a food website, as if those weren't thick on the ground to begin with (I even know one or two, and I'm not sure they don't have at least as many readers as Mr. Plotnicki's site), order them to muck around what they normally do, and then be surprised that all you've really done is throw a monkey wrench into their smooth-functioning machine and guaranteed yourself an actually worse experience than if you'd simply gone in as a normal person and ordered the normal meal without trying to be a big shot.

Anyway, next time try being an attractive blonde Hollywood celebrity, that might work better than being an internet star, which is like "jumbo shrimp."

* Entirely facetious, do not mean to suggest in any way that the poster should actually be moderated.

Thanks for your comments; they are helpful. To answer some questions: no we did not expect to be comped. I've never been comped in my life and at 53 if it were going to happen it would have happened by now. I told the GM the salt cod was too salty, that I could not eat it and I pushed it away from me having taken only one spoonful. I did not eat any more of it. I don't think I was ambiguous.

If you knew us I don't think you'd come away thinking we were a horde of narcissistic demanding and boorish diners fixated on rubbing elbows with Gras or demanding special treatment. We asked if the kitchen would be willing to cook for us, the restaurant via the Captain said yes.

By the way I am not an out of towner. I sold my condo in NYC a year ago and moved to chicago. I return to NYC each week from Tuesday to Thursday as a professor at Columbia University. I love my life in Chicago and live here by choice despite the commute. My hobbies are wine collecting and dining out. I love all kinds of places from hot dog stands to Troigros. On the side I write wine and food reviews for publications such as The World of Fine Wine. I haven't met most of you and thought a little about me might help.

DutchMuse,
Thanks for the response and the introduction. And welcome (albeit 60-odd posts into your tenure here).

We're happy to have you here, but I'm not entirely certain that you appreciate the tone that I think many of us have felt.

DutchMuse wrote:If you knew us I don't think you'd come away thinking we were a horde of narcissistic demanding and boorish diners fixated on rubbing elbows with Gras or demanding special treatment. We asked if the kitchen would be willing to cook for us, the restaurant via the Captain said yes.

I think this partly illustrates the problem. This is not complete. It wasn't simply a matter of asking if the kitchen would be willing to cook for you. That was clearly a part of it and clearly a part wherein communication was sadly lacking, as others have noted above. But it is also a fact (I presume, based on what I read) that the restaurant was advised of your coming, advised that the party would be a part of a national evaluation/survey. That skews things. Irremediably. Whether you choose to preface your visit with that kind of information is, of course, entirely up to the party. But it is unreasonable to do it and then suggest that it had no effect on what transpired.

I won't go into the practice of chefs appearing in the dining room; it's been surveyed by others more competent than I. I think only that it might be helpful to step back a bit and try to view the discussion from our perspective, as you wish us to experience the dinner from yours.

Dutch Muse,

I've appreciated all of your participation in the forum since you joined, and respect your experience and diverse palate. The way you approached this particular dinner at L.20 doesn't sit well with me, but I certainly hope you don't view comments in this thread as indicative of some larger problem people have with you. . I'm actually quite happy with the lively discussion your post has generated. What a boring forum this would be if everyone just agreed about everything. My comments probably say as much about my own frustrations from having worked back-of-the-house in NYC than they say about you

Check out the LTH Events board. I hope to meet you at one of them sometime.

Kenny

Mike G wrote:on the desire to be treated like royalty-- Saudi in particular--

Mike G wrote:even for a technically rural part of California.

Mike G wrote:And she— second-generation Hollywood— proceeded to do the Get Shorty thing

Hilarious pieces of writing. Bravo!

It occurred to me just now: 3 pages of posts in response to DutchMuse's review, yet none of us thought to ask him about the portions.

Gypsy

Your presumptions aren't entirely correct. I think Steve made the reservation and to my knowledge no mention was made of any national survey. I emailed Chantelle to inquire as to byob and mentioned Garys and Steves names in the email but that was it.

I'm on my iPhone and it's a bit hard to read/reply but I take it you are a chef? If so, bravo. I hope to be a chef in my next life. Dare I say it? Some of my best friends are chefs.

As to the question about portion sizes I'd say they were large--very generous portions.

DutchMuse wrote:Gypsy

Your presumptions aren't entirely correct. I think Steve made the reservation and to my knowledge no mention was made of any national survey. I emailed Chantelle to inquire as to byob and mentioned Garys and Steves names in the email but that was it.

I'm on my iPhone and it's a bit hard to read/reply but I take it you are a chef?

Ah, if only. (I think.) No, I am not. I think my antecedent-less "our perspective" misled you. By "our," I meant the LTH community, not that of chefs. Sorry for the confusion.

DutchMuse wrote:As to the question about portion sizes I'd say they were large--very generous portions.

Sorry to confuse - my question was actually a failed attempt at humor

The following posts explain what I was getting at:
http://www.lthforum.com/...p84720
http://www.lthforum.com/...p276407
http://www.lthforum.com/...p201085
http://www.lthforum.com/...p35503
The old Catskills resort joke

i swore i'd never write on this or any other food blog again, but i just had to let everyone know how fascinating this thread/discussion has become; honestly it's very entertaining and educational.

aschie30 wrote:Hilarious pieces of writing. Bravo!

Speaking of hilarious.......

It was with enthusiasm that I accepted the invitation to join five .............

As a relative newcomer to lth and layperson who enjoys food, I find this thread to be highly fascinating and illuminating. You've even managed to get a world class chef to come out of the woodworks. Can I nominate this thread for lth thread of the year. It certainly surpasses the great Andrew Forlines debacle of 2009 thread. Btw, who in the heck is this Plotnicki character..the Julia Child of food bloggers?



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"We are blinded in examining our own labors by innumerable prejudices. Our juvenile compositions please us, because they bring to our minds the remembrance of youth; our later performances we are ready to esteem, because we are unwilling to think that we made no improvement; what flows easily from the pen charms us, because we read with pleasure that which flatters our opinion of our own powers; what was composed with great struggles of the mind we do not easily reject, because we cannot bear that so much labor should be fruitless. But the reader has none of these prepossessions, and wonders that the author is so unlike himself, without considering that the same soil will, with different culture, afford different products."

-Samuel Johnson

ChefGEB wrote:i swore i'd never write on this or any other food blog again, but i just had to let everyone know how fascinating this thread/discussion has become; honestly it's very entertaining and educational.

So you swore you'd never write, but lurking's all good, eh? Shady.

I kid, I kid

na wrote:Btw, who in the heck is this Plotnicki character?

That's what Google is for!