"The harder I try to get out, the more they pull me back in!"

Okay, quick note due to insufficient willpower to stay out. I was actually having some of VI's thoughts, second thoughts perhaps, because I've enjoyed a few extras in my time and I've let a few chefs who I knew paid some attention to LTHForum or Sky Full of Bacon know I was coming because, mildly presumptuous though that might be, it seemed less weird than going, having them recognize my name on the book, and then thinking I was trying to go incognito for some reviewing reason. I'm not expecting anything, I just don't want them to think I'm trying to pull a fast one, that's even more awkward. (I also think there's something to the point that L2O should know how to handle such requests better if they're common, even if you also find them improper; and that it demonstrates they're not quite at the level they, and some in local media claim. This doesn't really matter to me, but it may be true nonetheless.)

But VI's post clarified for me the issue. It's one thing to have worked your way to a little special treatment via patronage, or even the secondhand patronage of being an LTHer and thus enjoying the benefits of the community's past business. It's another to announce yourself to a distant city and a restaurant where you've never been, and then slam them online for not treating you with the full pomp you think you warrant. Most things in life that are not obvious are a matter of tone, and I agree with those who find both the request and the subsequent posts about the experience just... more brash than I find tasteful.

Addendum 3:02 pm: I should clarify that the number of places where I feel there's a reason to ID myself ahead of time is probably well within the fingers of two hands. It is not a universal practice of mine by any means.

hoppy2468 wrote:Steveo,

How did you get the restaurant to do tasting portions of ala carte menu items when practically every restaurant that I'm aware of will only do a "tasting menu" for the entire table?

I don't know I just asked. I know Mike from the survey and I emailed him ahead of time to tell him I was coming.

Let me add one more note here. Because of my blog and the survey, restaurants often know who I am. It is fairly typical for me to walk into a restaurant where I have done nothing but made a reservation using OpenTable, in order to have the host/hostess tell me that the chef is a fan of my blog and he/she will be shortly coming to the table to talk over that night's dinner. So quite often because of who I am, I am extended certain nicetities that might not be extended to others even though I haven't asked for them. And to be honest about it, some times it works out great and some times it's annoying.

Here is an email I recieved from a restaurant I had never been to in SF:

"dear steve - just wanted to thank you for including ------ in your 2009 recommended list of restaurants. it is a great honor and privilege to be part of such a prestigious list and for that i'm incredibly grateful. i have been a big fan of your work for a long time and discussed it at length with my very good friend ----------- from -------restaurant on many occasions. again, thank you kindly and hopefully we will meet in person soon."

Now what I find counter-intuitive about this thread, which in many ways is summed up in Mike G's last post, is that if I went to that restaurant and I recieved special treatment, I am not holding back the info and I am happy to tell anyone here how to get it. So accusations of being a "big shot" are unfounded. One could only make that case if I held the info back for my own purposes. But I am williing to share the info with everyone here yet I am being criticizeed for making an effort to get the information in the first place.

I lost my last response when I closed the internet before loading... so here's the abbreviated version:
As a chef - and one who will make rounds in the dining room - I completely understand why one wouldn't want to. Although most guests are friendly and enjoyable, plenty are obnoxiously long winded, think I care about their relative's resume who is in the profession, or in the worst case scenario, ask me for the bill or to bring me more bread thinking I am their server. Additionally, though praise is nice to hear - and I am admittedly not on the level of Chef Gras - this can still go emabarrasingly overboard. And then there are also other guests who may feel inadequate for not receiving attention.
Regarding critics announcing themselves, I am strongly against this. As a responsible chef, I will probably pay more attention to your table because of the pr reprocussions. But I will also go into the back of the house and obnoxiously let the entire team know what I think of this seemingly desperate gesture of announcing yourself. You have a much better chance of winning affection/attention by letting me know you are a connoisseur by how you order. Then go and write about it if you wish. Though I doubt Chef Gras simply ignored you because you were a writer, I would applaud him for having the balls if he did.

phillipfoss wrote:I lost my last response when I closed the internet before loading... so here's the abbreviated version:
As a chef - and one who will make rounds in the dining room - I completely understand why one wouldn't want to. Although most guests are friendly and enjoyable, plenty are obnoxiously long winded, think I care about their relative's resume who is in the profession, or in the worst case scenario, ask me for the bill or to bring me more bread thinking I am their server. Additionally, though praise is nice to hear - and I am admittedly not on the level of Chef Gras - this can still go emabarrasingly overboard. And then there are also other guests who may feel inadequate for not receiving attention.
Regarding critics announcing themselves, I am strongly against this. As a responsible chef, I will probably pay more attention to your table because of the pr reprocussions. But I will also go into the back of the house and obnoxiously let the entire team know what I think of this seemingly desperate gesture of announcing yourself. You have a much better chance of winning affection/attention by letting me know you are a connoisseur by how you order. Then go and write about it if you wish. Though I doubt Chef Gras simply ignored you because you were a writer, I would applaud him for having the balls if he did.

I am guessing Steve will now never wish to eat at Lockwood, but you've earned my business. I have few relationships (borne out of repeat business, not preconceptions) with chefs like Antonio at Xni-Pec and Gaetano, and if I'm invited or offered anything special, I want it to be on their terms and as their time allows. Respecting them as artists is different than commissioning a bust of yourself.

Steve Plotnicki wrote: But I am williing to share the info with everyone here yet I am being criticizeed for making an effort to get the information in the first place.

I for one sincerely appreciate that. There is much value in knowing the steps you've taken to earn the reputation you've earned.

I feel like I'm at an advantage in this conversation, because until yesterday, I had no idea who any of you people were...hopefully this allows me to speak without bias for or against anyone.

Overall, I still feel like the idea of knowing "code words" and dropping names & titles in order to get preferential treatment is a bit sleazy...HOWEVER, this is the same thing that goes on in the nightlife scene in every city, every night. Hell, I've been guilty of this sleaziness on many occasions, trying to bypass long lines, avoid paying cover, score a table in the VIP section, or get a bachelor party group into the hot club-of-the-moment (this is the hardest task of all...usually the doorman's attitude is "no girls? no dice"). Calling ahead, dropping names, greasing palms, pulling strings, calling in favors, playing the "do you know who I am?" card (assuming you're in a position to play it...I, unfortunately, am not) are all SOP.

It's a damn shame that truly high-end restaurants (I'm not implying that L.2O necessarily fits into this category...I'll be able to say for sure after Saturday though ) participate in this ridiculous behavior. I see it as encouraging people to act as badly as they can...if it's demonstrated that acting like an entitled a-hole, or a pompous bigshot, or a name dropper, or whatever (and I emphasize, I'm not accusing anyone of doing these things, I'm basing this on multiple posts where it's based on multiple posts that these things can work) results in better service, guess what more and more people are going to do as word spreads?

I wish fine dining could be above this b.s., but it's not surprising that it isn't...back in the day, fine dining was the domain of the elite, the originators of "do you know who I am?" and obsessed with surpassing the Joneses (or the Brook-Hampsters and the Smith-Smythe-Smiths). Nowadays, high-end cuisine has gone mainstream, and likely attracts many of the same folks who are already accustomed to dropping names and pulling strings to get into clubs.

Like I said, the whole thing makes me feel slimy, and I have no intention of willingly participating in it. If this means I'm stuck with the plebeian degustation menu, so be it. It's also the reason I've stopped going to clubs and "trendy" bars (I'm not about to beg & bribe some hired good in a cheap black suit for the "privilege" of walking in the front door in order to be ripped off by cover charge and ridiculous drink prices...but that there is a whole 'nother rant). But I guess just because I no longer live in a glass house doesn't mean it's okay to start throwing stones

Khaopaat wrote:I feel like I'm at an advantage in this conversation, because until yesterday, I had no idea who any of you people were...

other than GAF who I had the pleasure of meeting @ the burrito crawl, I have zero idea who any of the other people are.

Chef Foss's response suggests a related issue that might belong on some other thread of whether he (or other chefs) would appreciate knowing that there was another chef in the house. Should chefs, dining in a colleague's restaurant, announce themselves, and will they receive special treatment.

Following from this is the question of whether there is a community of high-level chefs and high-level diners who participate within the same tight-knit community, which is the assumption that Steve is making - and it is a plausible one, even if I am not a part of that same community.

I will not comment on Chef Foss's modest comment that he and Chef Gras have different abilities, but I do warmly congratulate him for making the Palmer House a destination for serious diners, rather than a place from which to flee.

phillipfoss wrote:Regarding critics announcing themselves, I am strongly against this. As a responsible chef, I will probably pay more attention to your table because of the pr reprocussions. But I will also go into the back of the house and obnoxiously let the entire team know what I think of this seemingly desperate gesture of announcing yourself. You have a much better chance of winning affection/attention by letting me know you are a connoisseur by how you order. Then go and write about it if you wish. Though I doubt Chef Gras simply ignored you because you were a writer, I would applaud him for having the balls if he did.

There are a few things conflated here. First of all I am not a writer, I am a blogger. I write about my individual experiences as a diner. Part of my blogging gestalt is my personality superimposed on the dining experience. Take my personality, and the way I apporach a restaurant out of the equation and you merely have a generic review. The second thing is that the Laurent Gras's of the world need the important bloggers to write good reviews about their restaurant. The restaurant was more than half empty, and I am certain that this extended dialogue about the incident on this board and other places (including my blog) will make some people choose a different restaurant than L2O in the future. So in essence you are applauding him for being a poor businessman. The third thing is, if I wait to impress the kitchen by how I order, that precludes the chef from choosing my meal which is what I want so your point doesn't make sense.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:...the Laurent Gras's of the world need the important bloggers to write good reviews about their restaurant. The restaurant was more than half empty, and I am certain that this extended dialogue about the incident on this board and other places (including my blog) will make some people choose a different restaurant than L2O in the future.

"the important bloggers"???? Seriously? Thank you again for teaching us the steps to earn that reputation of yours.

phillipfoss wrote: or in the worst case scenario, ask me for the bill or to bring me more bread thinking I am their server.

I think if I was in your place and the person asking me had no idea that I was the executive chef
I'd get the bread or get someone to get their check and just move on. Showing your frustration over being confused with a server would be a clear sign to your staff of what you think of their role on your team.

I am disappointed by the perjorative way people who are merely looking for the best dining experience are being described as "A-Holes." I mean do you think anyone does this to be a big shot. Isn't it possible that they are more poassionate or knowledgable about dining than you are? Why do you insist on characterizing them in an offputting way?

Let me make up a hypothetical example and see what you guys have to say about it. There is a very famous restaurant in the Oregon wine country called the Italian Lavatory. One of the specialties of the house is game. On the day you are scheduled to go, their normal game supplier walks in with three very special wood pigeons. The problem is, there are 12 reservations that night and not everyone can be offered wood pigeon. How should the restaurant determine who they offer it to?

Steve Plotnicki wrote:First of all I am not a writer, I am a blogger.

You're not a writer? What do you do on your blog? Dance?

Seriously, you take a position as an expert and write. You've got an audience, copyright notices, and thousands of paragraphs of work. You're a writer. The blog is the delivery format. It doesn't matter if it comes out online or in a hand-delivered quarterly journal, you're a writer.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:Let me make up a hypothetical example and see what you guys have to say about it. There is a very famous restaurant in the Oregon wine country called the Italian Lavatory. One of the specialties of the house is game. On the day you are scheduled to go, their normal game supplier walks in with three very special wood pigeons. The problem is, there are 12 reservations that night and not everyone can be offered wood pigeon. How should the restaurant determine who they offer it to?

Wood pigeon soup with a wood pigeon amuse?

Steve Plotnicki wrote:...not everyone can be offered wood pigeon. How should the restaurant determine who they offer it to?

Depends. Does a wood pigeon bite?

That is why I am puzzled as to why you are trying to blame Dutchmuse for a system that was set up in restaurants in France before any of us were born? The way it works is they offer a better experience to more important customers. If you want to change that, complain to the Michel Troisgros' of the world not me.

I assume this is why Michelin reviewers do their utmost to preserve their anonymity. There is a huge difference between Frank Sinatra and Frank Bruni in their role as diners, and why one would be seeking special treatment and the other would not.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:I am disappointed by the perjorative way people who are merely looking for the best dining experience are being described as "A-Holes." I mean do you think anyone does this to be a big shot. Isn't it possible that they are more poassionate or knowledgable about dining than you are? Why do you insist on characterizing them in an offputting way?

You're missing the point, you're not being jumped on for looking for the best dining experience. Everyone attending any restaurant ever is looking for the best dining experience. The reason people are upset with you is because you're name dropping which you think should move your experience above and beyond everyone else's. On top of that you can't seem to see the ethical implications of publishing restaurant reviews while seeking special treatment. If it helps to understand why it's off putting you might look into the history and criticism of Nina and Tim Zagat.

I am disappointed by the perjorative way people who are merely looking for the best dining experience are being described as "A-Holes." I mean do you think anyone does this to be a big shot. Isn't it possible that they are more poassionate or knowledgable about dining than you are? Why do you insist on characterizing them in an offputting way?

But the responders are not describing ALL such people
like that, only the ones who seem to be doing so in an
A-hole-y way. Seems you've got a full house of passionate
and knowledgable diners on here, but only this particular
group it raising the communal ire. Speaks volumes I think.

So, Steve how was the food?

I'm not a writer the way Phil Vittel is a writer. I make no representations about anonymity, jounalistic standards etc. If you are unhappy with that dynamic, you are free to use your mouse to click out of my site. Most people don't care.

You're missing the point, you're not being jumped on for looking for the best dining experience. Everyone attending any restaurant ever is looking for the best dining experience

Actually this isn't true. Most people want the generic experience otherwise they would be happy to ask for a better one. And this business about name dropping is silly. That's the system the restaurants have set up. They want people to name drop in order to get First Class rather than Coach treatment.

What is really bothering people on this thread, and I know this from discussing this topic ad nauseum on OA, is that people are unhappy that there is a two tier system where one of the tiers are unannounced, EVEN THOUGH IT DOESN'T AFFECT YOUR own MEAL. Now, due to people like me, you know you can ask for a first class meal if you want to, and you can order off the menu if you want to. Why can't that be the end of it? Why do people who want a First Class meal have to be insulted?

You see no one has been willing to answer the question I asked about the wood pigeons because the obvious answer is the restaurant is going to give them to their most important customers. But since you guys don't want to blame that on the restaurant, because you want to like restaurants, you are trying to use the diner as a proxy for you to express your ire at the system. Well just remember I'm not the one hiding the wood pigeons and keeping them off of the menu so you don't know about it, the chefs are. I'm just trying to figure out a way to have them offer them to me. If you are unhappy with the various methods people use to do that, well you can go on eating the A food rather than the A+ food. But in the end of the day as Christopher Mintz-Plasse would say if he was a food critic, "I get to eat the wood pigeon and you don't, sucka"

Matt the food was better than I expected. Unfortunately because the communication problems, I didn't get a representative meal so it's a bit hard to say.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:You see no one has been willing to answer the question I asked about the wood pigeons because the obvious answer is the restaurant is going to give them to their most important customers. But since you guys don't want to blame that on the restaurant, because you want to like restaurants, you are trying to use the diner as a proxy for you to express your ire at the system. Well just remember I'm not the one hiding the wood pigeons and keeping them off of the menu so you don't know about it, the chefs are. I'm just trying to figure out a way to have them offer them to me. If you are unhappy with the various methods people use to do that, well you can go on eating the A food rather than the A+ food. But in the end of the day as Christopher Mintz-Plasse would say if he was a food critic, "I get to eat the wood pigeon and you don't, sucka"

Matt the food was better than I expected. Unfortunately because the communication problems, I didn't get a representative meal so it's a bit hard to say.

No one has answered because it's a straw man argument.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:Now, due to people like me, you know you can ask for a first class meal if you want to, and you can order off the menu if you want to. Why can't that be the end of it? Why do people who want a First Class meal have to be insulted?

But Steve, your approach did not seem to yield a first-class meal at L.20. It seems to me that it may have worked against you. It also seems to me that this inevitably was an important factor (for you and/or some of your fellow diners) in determining that L.20 was not "top-tier." Do you think this conclusion is fair? If you would have found out that Chef Gras had indeed put the meal together for you, would your impression of the restaurant as "top-tier" have been different? I'm just curious on your thoughts in this regard.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:You see no one has been willing to answer the question I asked about the wood pigeons ....

You waited 26 minutes this time. Big improvement.

Steve Plotnicki wrote: well you can go on eating the A food rather than the A+ food.

But at L.20, it seems your approach may have yielded a B+ progression rather than an A+ progression. Should this speak invariably to the quality of the restaurant or to the quality of your approach?

Steve Plotnicki wrote:\If you are unhappy with the various methods people use to do that, well you can go on eating the A food rather than the A+ food. But in the end of the day as Christopher Mintz-Plasse would say if he was a food critic, "I get to eat the wood pigeon and you don't, sucka"

Are we to take this to mean that your blog is primarily a means to the end of eating the proverbial wood pigeons?

But that's because the restaurant didn't know how to deal with the type of request that restaurants at that level get every day. And instead of coming to us with all of the information, so we could figure out how to proceed, they assumed they could allow our server to choose for us.

My blog is about teaching people how to get a better meal at a restaurant than might be apprarant from merely reading the menu.

This discussion seems to have moved completely off of the topic of L.20; can we start a new topic in "Other Culinary Chat" and continue this conversation there. I find this topic very interesting but I do not feel that it is appropriate in the L.20 thread any longer.

Thanks!

Steve Plotnicki wrote:What is really bothering people on this thread, and I know this from discussing this topic ad nauseum on OA, is that people are unhappy that there is a two tier system where one of the tiers are unannounced, EVEN THOUGH IT DOESN'T AFFECT YOUR own MEAL.

Okay, I'm jumping in because this directly speaks to my main criticism with your point(s), Steve. If everyone went to restaurants and demanded special treatment, chef composed individualized menus, and to meet with the chef, wouldn't this totally cripple the restaurant? Those wood pigeons would already be gone when you got there. Yes, these things are part of the system as it currently exists, but if your main altruistic inspired goal is to share the availability of these options and more people started to partake, wouldn't that completely derail the fine dining experiences you so enjoy? You say it doesn't affect my own meal, but the more time my waitperson spends accommodating you, the more time the chef spends talking to you and catering to you, it very well could affect my meal. Furthermore, people who know about the system but choose not to participate with these special requests (as I think most people here would qualify, but I can only speak for myself) are not making the choice because I prefer a "generic" experience over a "first-class" one, but because I want to experience the restaurant and it's food as it's meant to be experienced and because I respect the kitchens need for a consistent pace. Assumptions on all sides of this argument have been rampant, but I think yours are particularly excessive.

Is there any way to get a Freedom of Information Act request for OpenTable customer notes? After getting a sense for how some restaurants and waitstaff react to these kinds of requests and diners from reading through the Waiter Rant archives lately, I imagine they would be more entertaining than even this thread, which is a high bar to surpass.

ndgbucktown wrote:

Steve Plotnicki wrote:\If you are unhappy with the various methods people use to do that, well you can go on eating the A food rather than the A+ food. But in the end of the day as Christopher Mintz-Plasse would say if he was a food critic, "I get to eat the wood pigeon and you don't, sucka"

Are we to take this to mean that your blog is primarily a means to the end of eating the proverbial wood pigeons?

Bingo. As Roger Ebert reports Louis Armstrong used to say, "There are some folks that, if they don't know, you can't tell 'em."

We're returning to the cave.

With wood pigeons.