DutchMuse wrote:

jimswside wrote:

Khaopaat wrote:I feel like I'm at an advantage in this conversation, because until yesterday, I had no idea who any of you people were...

other than GAF who I had the pleasure of meeting @ the burrito crawl, I have zero idea who any of the other people are.

Nor have I had the good fortune to meet most of you guys. Therefore, I propose a dinner for any interested LTH member at L2o in the next two months, organized at a date of generally mutual agreement. The ground rules:

Thank you (genuinely) for the offer, and your good humor throughout the discussion. This is a reasonable way to make some progress.

I personally must decline, since I am standing in line for free gyros, saving lots of Lincolns for that addition on the house, and resenting Steve's higher station in life and superior knowledge.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:This post is the crux of the argument:

[It's so interesting for me to hear this perspective. I sometimes wonder if Steve is for-real or if this is just an online persona of some kind. Amazingly, it seems nuts to me to call a restaurant to tell them in advance that I "really appreciate cuisine." This is self-evident if I am there and willing to spend my money. The calling in seems to have ulterior motives, which have been pointed out and accepted.

It assumes that all diners are the same, and all diners are as knowledgable as other diners and that's just not true. That's what is really bothering people here IMO. They are upset that people with more knowledge can get a better meal than they get. What flows from that are a whole host of class resentment arguments that have nothing to do with dining ot food.

Wow.

Now that rendered me speechless.

You must be right, Steve. It has nothing to do with being annoyed by people who throw their weight around, who exaggerate their self-importance, who are willing to put other people in uncomfortable situations to get what they want, and who generally make themselves enormous pains in the ass, and it has nothing to do with the fact that we expect our fellow diners to act with humility and respect.

It must be because our uncultivated palates are just jealous.

I stand corrected.

X <----- You.

The Point ------------> X

I do believe we're at an impasse. Time for me to bow out.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:It assumes that all diners are the same, and all diners are as knowledgable as other diners and that's just not true. That's what is really bothering people here IMO. They are upset that people with more knowledge can get a better meal than they get.

But you didn't get a better dinner...and that is what ticked you off. I would be crazy to assume that all diners are as knowledgeable as other diners. It just seems weird for me to call the restaurant up front just to tell them how knowledgeable I am. I see nothing strange about a genuine exchange with your servers or the chef while dining that, in its course, may show your knowledge or lack of knowledge about food. But doing so simply in a disingenuous manner simply to get a perk seems in poor taste to me. That's just me though.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:When I took Tony to Lunch at Txikto, they made us a special menu. That's because I name dropped and told them I was bringing him to lunch with me.

Okay, seriously, this can't be the real Plotnicki. I call BS. No one could be this thick.

Dmnkly, KennyZ, et al., I think we all appreciate your valiant yet fruitless efforts here but let's not take the bait any further from this fine fellow and maybe he'll go away. It's pointless to argue with faulty generalizations and fallacious reasoning. I've never heard of these people either. Can we get back to the food pretty please.

Santander wrote:
Thank you (genuinely) for the offer, and your good humor throughout the discussion. This is a reasonable way to make some progress.

I personally must decline, since I am standing in line for free gyros, saving lots of Lincolns for that addition on the house, and resenting Steve's higher station in life and superior knowledge.

I can assure, you, I started to print out that same coupon only to realize I would be in NYC on September 1. I even looked to see if there was a place in NY I could find to honor the coupon! (Seriously!)

Thanks for your kind post.

r2g wrote:But you didn't get a better dinner...and that is what ticked you off.

No that isn't what ticked me off. What ticked us all off was that the restaurant decided that Allison was going to choose our meal AND THEY DIDN'T TELL US she as going to do that. Had they told us, I would have asked to see the menu and the three of us would have worked out a menu we wanted. So as a result of their not telling us what was happening, I ended up not getting what I came there for. That's my sole complaint. The restaurant didn't afford us the opportunity of correcting THEIR mistake until it was too late. In my experience that is unusual for a top restaurant.

It just seems weird for me to call the restaurant up front just to tell them how knowledgeable I am. I see nothing strange about a genuine exchange with your servers or the chef while dining that,

A genuine exchange with your server? All the server can do is talk to the chef.

C...caller
R...restaurant

R...good evening, may i help you?
C...I'm so and so
R...may I help you
C...I knowd a lot about vittles
R...of course you do
C...I write stuff
R...of course you do
C...on blogs
R... of course you do
C...I want the cook to chef for me
R...of course..., yes, the chef will cook for you
C...I want the supercalifragilistictic dinner
R...One pidgeon coming up!

Steve Plotnicki wrote:communicate to the kitchen that you were an experienced diner and were looking for something special

I can't imagine conveying this with a straight face so clearly I am missing something so please sirs, some guidance on how one would communicate this to the kitchen. Would one say:

I am an experienced diner and am looking for something special
I am an experienced diner and am looking for something special
I am an experienced (perhaps with a saucy wink?) diner and am looking for something special
I am an experienced diner and am looking for something special
I am an experienced diner and am looking for something special (maybe delivered in a husky whisper with a smoldering gaze?)

Hi Hello

I'm sure you could advise us as to the best way; this taken from your website linked to your post:

Explore the city's neighborhoods by bicycle with us as your guides. Experience a wide range of unique food. Talk with restaurant owners, cooks and shopkeepers passionate about what they do.

How do you speak to the owners and cooks and how do you ask them these types of things?

I'm not sure why this discussion is still underway*, in light of the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

* Though I have found it entertaining. Thanks, all.

Hellodali wrote:

Steve Plotnicki wrote:communicate to the kitchen that you were an experienced diner and were looking for something special

I can't imagine conveying this with a straight face so clearly I am missing something so please sirs, some guidance on how one would communicate this to the kitchen. Would one say:

Hellodali, don't you get it. Buy Steve's book, he'll show you how.

OK, this not informative or fun any more. Guess I'm out too. I should have stepped out after my "miscommunication" post. Instead, I bit the bait.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:There are a few things conflated here. First of all I am not a writer, I am a blogger.

So if bloggers are not writers, then what the hell are they? And why should anyone care about your personality? This has quickly become one of the most surreal threads ever on this list.

You<------------X

X------------->You










Me----------->?????????????????????????????

Hellodali wrote:I can't imagine conveying this with a straight face so clearly I am missing something so please sirs, some guidance on how one would communicate this to the kitchen. Would one say:

Here are two very simple ways:

1. We would like the kitchen to cook for us

2. We would like the kitchen to choose our meal

If you utter those simple words to your captain, more often than not you will find that either the chef will send the captain back out to get more information about what you are looking for, or he will come to the table himself to discuss the meal with you. Of course in some instances they will simply tell you to order the tasting menu.

So if bloggers are not writers, then what the hell are they? .

That's a great question and I'm not sure I know the answer. But even though I write about food, I am not a writer in the sense that Phil Vittel is a writer. What I do is less formal than what he does and I don't know how to quantify the difference.

And why should anyone care about your personality?

Because a writer's personality is what makes his work interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYp2LGKOF_M

Looks like it's gonna be 17 over.

So if bloggers are not writers, then what the hell are they? .

That's a great question and I'm not sure I know the answer. But even though I write about food, I am not a writer in the sense that Phil Vittel is a writer. What I do is less formal than what he does and I don't know how to quantify the difference.

And why should anyone care about your personality?

Because a writer's personality is what makes his work interesting.[/quote]

But you have already said a blogger is not a writer, that you're not a writer in the sense that Phil Vittel is. So if bloggers are not writers than your personality doesn't or shouldn't matter. Help me out here. Just from what you have written it's difficult to reach a conclusion other than that you're just a self important blowhard who is expecting special treatment.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:

So if bloggers are not writers, then what the hell are they? .

That's a great question and I'm not sure I know the answer. But even though I write about food, I am not a writer in the sense that Phil Vittel is a writer. What I do is less formal than what he does and I don't know how to quantify the difference.

Well, I can quantify the difference for you. The difference is that a major newspaper pays Phil Vittel to write what he writes, and nobody pays Steve Plotnicki to write what he writes. That's not saying either one is worth more than the other, but that is the quantifiable difference between you two.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:

And why should anyone care about your personality?

Because a writer's personality is what makes his work interesting.

Oh for Pete's sake, please check out this and report back. It is decidedly NOT a writer's personality that makes his (or her) work interesting; it is the writer's WORK that makes the writer's work interesting. To the extent a writer effectively imparts his, hers or anyone's personality through that work, then hurrah! That's one mark of success. Successful writer! I don't give a flying fish about your personality unless I'm in the room with you.

(By the way, I had dinner once at L.20 and it was just fine, but I would never repeat it. I prefer a restaurant with a more expressive personality.)

Matt brought up Socrates' cave analogy, and I think that's where we are: both sides feel they've seen the light, and the other side is basing their reality on shadows in the cave. And when both sides think the other is basing their world view on a faux reality, there's really no convincing each other that they're wrong.

Hellodali wrote:I am an experienced diner and am looking for something special (maybe delivered in a husky whisper with a smoldering gaze?)

Awesome. Thanks for seeing me out of this thread with a laugh

JimInLoganSquare wrote:Well, I can quantify the difference for you. The difference is that a major newspaper pays Phil Vittel to write what he writes, and nobody pays Steve Plotnicki to write what he writes. That's not saying either one is worth more than the other, but that is the quantifiable difference between you two.

I was referring to editorial slant. A blog is much less formal and has less restrictions on it than a newspaper does becausenewspapers are bound by a whole set of journalistic standards. Yet bloggers adhere to many of those same standards. All I was saying is that I don't know how to quantify the difference.

Oh for Pete's sake, please check out this and report back. It is decidedly NOT a writer's personality that makes his (or her) work interesting; it is the writer's WORK that makes the writer's work interesting. To

It is for bloggers. Didn't you see Julie and Julia? What makes it interesting isn't that she tried to cook the food, it's how she personally dealt with her adversity which comes through in every blog article she wrote about it.

You know on OA we have a casual rule that as soon as someone starts citing academic theories in a discussion about an informal hobby, it's code that the person doesn't know much about the hobby. Otherwise they would be talking about how the hobby works and not academic theories. Read this article I wrote which includes that subject. I am certain it will make your head explode.

http://www.opinionatedaboutdining.com/OADblog.php?ID=10763

I'm not sure why this discussion is still underway*, in light of the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

I don't think anyone's accused anyone else of being a Nazi just yet, so I think we've still got some distance to go.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:It is for bloggers. Didn't you see Julie and Julia? What makes it interesting isn't that she tried to cook the food, it's how she personally dealt with her adversity which comes through in every blog article she wrote about it.

Julie was calculating. She choose a high profile project to get herself noticed. She slugged her way through it throwing tantrums over everything. She road the coat tails of someone else's effort.

Julie's blog and book is all me, me, me with the sole purpose to call attention to herself. Whereas Mastering the Art of French Cooking was written to share the techniques and joys of French cooking.

My overall reaction to Julie: I don't care. Nobody I would want to emulate.

Regards,

Cathy2 wrote: Julie's blog and book is all me, me, me with the sole purpose to call attention to herself. Whereas Mastering the Art of French Cooking was written to share the techniques and joys of French cooking.

My overall reaction to Julie: I don't care. Nobody I would want to emulate.

Regards,

Yes but oddly enough, as a blogger, I related to much of her plight. Even my wife could relate to the role a spouse plays when someone becomes self-absorbed with their blog.

There is something about blogging that is more personal than merely being a writer. Like I said I can't quantify it but I can tell you there's a difference

Steve Plotnicki wrote:There is something about blogging that is more personal than merely being a writer. Like I said I can't quantify it but I can tell you there's a difference

I know what you mean.

When you're a professional writer, you're writing under some serious external constraints: an editor, a client, an audience you must appeal to if you want to get paid for what you're doing (and payment is one way to separate a professional anything from an amateur).

It's different with boggers or with people who contribute to LTHForum (who get clumped up in the same category with bloggers but are really different, though that's another discussion). Bloggers write, in part, for the joy of personal expression, their only editor is internal, there is no client to please, and the audience...well, if they like what they read, great; if they don't, the blogger is still going to be doing what they're doing tomorrow. Blogging is more personal because one person, the blogger, controls much more of what can be said.

David Hammond wrote: Bloggers write, in part, for the joy of personal expression, their only editor is internal, there is no client to please, and the audience...well, if they like what they read, great; if they don't, the blogger is still going to be doing what they're doing tomorrow. Blogging is more personal because one person, the blogger, controls much more of what can be said.

I agree Dave, I have a blog because I like to share what/where I am eating and cooking without a second thought to censorship, posts being deleted, etc. It is my canvas to do what I please, and say how I feel.

With the above said I would never use my blog, or attempt to use my blog to garner special favors, etc. I prefer to be as anonomous as possible, and fly below the radar.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:

Cathy2 wrote: Julie's blog and book is all me, me, me with the sole purpose to call attention to herself. Whereas Mastering the Art of French Cooking was written to share the techniques and joys of French cooking.

My overall reaction to Julie: I don't care. Nobody I would want to emulate.

Regards,

Yes but oddly enough, as a blogger, I related to much of her plight. Even my wife could relate to the role a spouse plays when someone becomes self-absorbed with their blog.

There is something about blogging that is more personal than merely being a writer. Like I said I can't quantify it but I can tell you there's a difference

A blogger doesn't need to have standards while a writer should. A writer submits their work or ideas to an editor in hopes of being accepted and getting paid for their work. A blogger hits "submit" on wordpress. As someone who has been paid for their work and written for free, I think that quantifies the difference quite simply.

jimswside wrote:With the above said I would never use my blog, or attempt to use my blog to garner special favors, etc. I prefer to be as anonomous as possible, and fly below the radar.

I am curious about this. Suppose a famous chef was a fan of your blog, and he would be happy to cook you a special meal if he knew you were in the restaurant that would be the best meal of you life. Why wouldn't you, or anyone else want that?

Steve Plotnicki wrote:
I am curious about this. Suppose a chef Keller was a fan of your blog, and he would be happy to cook you a special meal if he knew you were in the restaurant that would be the best meal of you life. Why wouldn't you, or anyone else want that?

who is chef keller?

Luckily I am a little fish in the blog world, and dont have this issue.

Steve Plotnicki wrote:

jimswside wrote:With the above said I would never use my blog, or attempt to use my blog to garner special favors, etc. I prefer to be as anonomous as possible, and fly below the radar.

I am curious about this. Suppose a famous chef was a fan of your blog, and he would be happy to cook you a special meal if he knew you were in the restaurant that would be the best meal of you life. Why wouldn't you, or anyone else want that?

Is Laurent Gras a fan of your blog?