'Save the Deli' talk & nosh, Thursday, Oct. 29 [past event]

David Sax, author of "Save the Deli: In Search of Perfect Pastrami, Crusty Rye, and the Heart of Jewish Delicatessen" and the similarly named blog, will give a talk and reading at Manny's at 6 p.m. Thursday, Oct. 29. Ticket prices: TBD. More info.

HI,

Please update once the price is known.

Regards,

Well, it still listed as "TBA" on Sax's web site, but his publicist says it's free.

Hi,

I will then mention it at Culinary Historians today.

Regards,
Cathy

I'm reading Save the Deli right now, and it offers some intriguing insights (at least to me) regarding the relative paucity of delis in Chicago.

Like every Jew in town doesn't know that already?

Here's what he has to say about our buddy extramsg:

http://www.savethedeli.com/2009/05/21/kenny-and-zukes-a-visit/

Jazzfood wrote:Like every Jew in town doesn't know that already?

Here's what he has to say about our buddy extramsg:

http://www.savethedeli.com/2009/05/21/kenny-and-zukes-a-visit/

There is no restaurant on earth that I want to get to more than this. Some people book a vacation to Spain built around a reservation at el Bulli. I'm going to have to apply the same idea to get myself to Portland asap.

You won't be sorry. In my opinion, the best deli in America with the best pastrami I've ever had. Talk to me before you go. Besides Nick's there's a couple other places in Portland I'd highly recommend.

Jazzfood wrote:Like every Jew in town doesn't know that already?

What Sax attempts to provide are reasons why.

Let me guess. No one wants to do it anymore because instead of first generation immigrants, they're dr's and lawyers now?

Or... it's considered too fatty and heavy a style of food? I know I'm goin' out on a limb there, but...

Frankly, I think the Save the Deli guy offers one dead-on explanation in the post on Kenny & Zuke's:

Kenny and Zuke’s is more than just a great new deli. It is what new delis should aspire to, and what many established delis can learn from. There’s no trading on nostalgia here. This is all done from scratch. The food comes above all else, and you can taste that in every incredible bite of this business. There are tons of good delis out there bringing in meat from Hebrew National and other purveyors, using canned products, frozen foods, and other time and money saving things. But there will always be something missing. They’re holding on, but they aren’t moving forward, and that might just be the heart of why so many delis have gone by the wayside. I’m not talking about fusion, or making deli gourmet, or fancy. I’m talking about a return to quality. A revisiting of the old ways. A look inward, at our traditions.

Jazzfood wrote:Let me guess. No one wants to do it anymore because instead of first generation immigrants, they're dr's and lawyers now?

Mike G wrote:Or... it's considered too fatty and heavy a style of food? I know I'm goin' out on a limb there, but...

I'm baffled as to why the assumption is that Sax has nothing to say on this topic.

Not that @ all. Do tell.

Jazzfood wrote:Not that @ all. Do tell.

I'm going to finish reading the book, and all's I can say at the moment is that I'm intrigued by the effort of Sax to delineate social forces that might have contributed to the deli's demise and I seemed to detect a certain "ain't it obvious?" tone in some of the posts here that I was at a loss to explain. Perhaps I misinterpreted.

Headed out to Maxwell Street Market now, where once I would have visited a classic deli or two...

Not quite Maxwell St. but fairly near the hood, I remember Braverman's fondly.

This guy is on the $. I've just heard that cliche for too long. I'm glad he's putting forth more thoughtful reasoning. I'd love to have his insight. Wish I could go on the 29th, but I've got a date w/Leonard Cohen.

Jazzfood wrote:I've got a date w/Leonard Cohen.

"Everybody knows."

I'm baffled as to why the assumption is that Sax has nothing to say on this topic.

Um... didn't I just quote him?

That said, among life's mysteries, why more people aren't eating fatty pastrami for lunch is not exactly up there with the Voynich Manuscript.

Mike G wrote:

I'm baffled as to why the assumption is that Sax has nothing to say on this topic.

Um... didn't I just quote him?

That said, among life's mysteries, why more people aren't eating fatty pastrami for lunch is not exactly up there with the Voynich Manuscript.

I'm not sure I agree with this assessment of why delis have declined. Hasn't the decline coincided with an explosion in unhealthy fast food consumption? I haven't read Sax's stuff yet, but to me the decline has more to do with a lost sense of community that exists among Jews and, more generally, in society. Delis are, or were, places to congregate over a relatively slow meal and enjoy shared traditions as much as delicious food. I think the decline of delis has less to do with health than with whatever forces also led to the decline of butcher shops, pubs, bingo, sitting on the front stoop chatting with your neighbors, and neighborhood restaurants in general.

Kennyz wrote:I haven't read Sax's stuff yet, but to me the decline has more to do with a lost sense of community that exists among Jews and, more generally, in society. Delis are, or were, places to congregate over a relatively slow meal and enjoy shared traditions as much as delicious food. I think the decline of delis has less to do with health than with whatever forces also led to the decline of butcher shops, pubs, bingo, sitting on the front stoop chatting with your neighbors, and neighborhood restaurants in general.

I read it when it was first published, so I can't remember details, but does Putman in Bowling Alone address delis at all?

Kennyz wrote:

Mike G wrote:

I'm baffled as to why the assumption is that Sax has nothing to say on this topic.

Um... didn't I just quote him?

That said, among life's mysteries, why more people aren't eating fatty pastrami for lunch is not exactly up there with the Voynich Manuscript.

I'm not sure I agree with this assessment of why delis have declined. Hasn't the decline coincided with an explosion in unhealthy fast food consumption? I haven't read Sax's stuff yet, but to me the decline has more to do with a lost sense of community that exists among Jews and, more generally, in society. Delis are, or were, places to congregate over a relatively slow meal and enjoy shared traditions as much as delicious food. I think the decline of delis has less to do with health than with whatever forces also led to the decline of butcher shops, pubs, bingo, sitting on the front stoop chatting with your neighbors, and neighborhood restaurants in general.

Sax seems to attribute the decline of the deli to a number of factors, including the loss of community among Jews, the loss of Jews from urban areas, the decreasing numbers of people fleeing Europe after the war, the decrease in kids who want to work in the family biz (as jazzfood suggests), the rise of grocery stores, the increase in convenience foods. According to Sax, it's not so simple as some previous posts have suggested...but I'm only about 20% into the book.

David Hammond wrote:relative paucity of delis in Chicago.

There must be more to deli dereliction in Chicago than the overall trends that Sax chronicles. I've never gotten a sense that Chicago ever had a widespread history of good delis, nor the reason why it didn't.

In "Dining in Chicago" (1931), John Drury describes a handful of Jewish restaurants, but applies "delicatessen" only to one: Deutsch's, 28 N. Dearborn St.

When I moved here nearly 25 years ago, Jewish delis were still relatively strong everywhere that had a significant Ashkenazi population. But the situation here was not good then, compared to other Midwestern cities like Detroit and Cleveland. The losses since (Sam & Hy's, Barnum & Bagel) have been more or less offset by the gains (Eleven City, Steve's); the density and quality remain pretty much as they were.

I wonder sometimes what might have happened had Richard Melman's father given him the partnership in Mr. Ricky's he once wanted. Lettuce Entertain You has never opened a deli.

Hi,

I plan to be there. Is anybody else going?

Regards,

LAZ wrote:I wonder sometimes what might have happened had Richard Melman's father given him the partnership in Mr. Ricky's he once wanted. Lettuce Entertain You has never opened a deli.

In the book, Melman is quoted as saying that opening a deli in Chicago would be like "giving to Israel" -- a charity effort that could not possibly generate a profit.

David Hammond wrote:

LAZ wrote:I wonder sometimes what might have happened had Richard Melman's father given him the partnership in Mr. Ricky's he once wanted. Lettuce Entertain You has never opened a deli.

In the book, Melman is quoted as saying that opening a deli in Chicago would be like "giving to Israel" -- a charity effort that could not possibly generate a profit.

That's what Melman told Sax, presumably recently. But when I asked him -- oh, maybe 15 years ago -- why he'd never opened a deli, he said it was because his experience with his father's deli had soured him on the concept.

I think if anyone could figure out how to make a deli pay, it might be LEYE, although I suspect their effort would be condemned -- as eatchicago once described H.P. Schmaltz's -- as like "an 'American Jew' pavilion at Epcot Center." (Which is rather better than the Polish Jew pavilion in Cracow that Sax describes.)

But had Melman's father taken him into partnership, perhaps his creativity would have meant a flowering of delicatessen culture across Chicagoland. Do you think Chicago would have been richer for more delicatessens if it had meant that LEYE never existed? [Cue "Twilight Zone" theme.]

Hi,

This was a worthy evening spent at Manny's. While I was prepared to buy a pastrami sandwich, I didn't expect a courtesy buffet. I fully expected a lecture by the author. I did not expect a warm up act: Jelvis, the Jewish Elvis!




It was fun, fun, fun, til Daddy took the T-Bird away!

Regards,

Not only did the free spread feature food from Manny's, the folks from Kaufman's had donated a platter of reuben strudel! Lots of representatives from the Chicagoland deli community turned out. (The folks from Kaufman's really seemed to be enjoying Jelvis.)

Sax was a good a speaker, and his book is worth reading.

Although you may have missed the food and Sax's portion of the program, through the magic of YouTube, you don't have to miss out out on Jelvis!



Alas, the part of the show where he called out G Wiv was not recorded for posterity. Jelvis performs to raise money for Mazon, a hunger-relief charity. (Maybe if people donate enough money, he'll stop! )

LAZ wrote:Alas, the part of the show where he called out G Wiv was not recorded for posterity. Jelvis performs to raise money for Mazon, a hunger-relief charity. (Maybe if people donate enough money, he'll stop! )

Jelvis the Jewish Elvis what a meshuggina, a mensch with the Mazon, a macher with the Catskill crowd, but that suit, oy.

Interesting talk, Mr. Sax deli knowledge is Engler like in its depth and breadth, and he is a comfortable speaker. The generous spread put on by Manny's, with corned beef, pastrami, chicken soup, chopped liver and, also, a savory strudel brought by Kaufman's, was an unexpected treat. But that Jelvis, oy.

Enjoy,
Gary

Related to the decline of delis, the decline of the pickle emporium: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =113763154