Khaopaat wrote:To passive-aggressively talk smack on SpaceBook or TweetFace instantly reeks of sour grapes to me.

Passive-aggressive? Aside from what ever else you want to say about her behavior, it seems straightforwardly aggressive to me.

In any case, it won't stop me from investigating an orange blossom custard beignet with a crisp sugar coating for myself.

--Rich

Bill wrote:

From Zarzour: I want to see a greater appreciation for this art form. Everyone's afraid to start the conversation because it creates hostility — I don't care. the conversation needs to be had.

Applause.

This is classic for Chicago. It reminds me of the Kanye West incident on the MTV video awards. No one really knows what to say when a smackdown is given. Especially if the one smacked seems cute & kind.

FYI- I don't eat at Sarah's nor have I gone to this cute little shop up in Andersonville. She's nuts if she thinks a home baker needs to read a culinary textbook. I would do it and a lot of other folks here would do it, but that's just too much of an attack on the innocent home baker. Heck, if they aren't passing off box/tube confections as "homemade" I say leave them alone!

I have a wicked sweet tooth so I have stuffed my fair share of both of their pastries down the pie hole and for whatever it is worth, I was not enamored with Natalie's stuff and I have enjoyed some of Sarah's but not all...I also live alot closer to Sarah's I have never had the thought that either I was going to one shop or the other on a sweet run...so for me are they competitor's, yes and no (it is a big city). Natalie has set the bar very high when she can get it together to write her El Bulli / Grand Livre de Italian Pastry but until then "there is no crying in baseball (or pastry)" so keep your head down and keep stuffing the cannoli...

Clearly she feels that she is a sage and her wisdom is far reaching...from her Twitter "so that nobody's mislead, this is Natalie Zarzour - the actual person - whos interests \ philosophies reach far beyond the pastry kitchen"...does anyone really care about what you think past powered sugar

I always follow the rule that I never say anything bad about someone else in my profession publicly - an interview or something, but the internet clouds the picture a bit. I have made some snide remarks on friends Facebook pages that I wouldn't be proud to see in print, mainly because I'd hate to hurt the pocketbook of any hard working people. Isn't this what Twitter is for? Too bad the media picked up on it.

mkiss wrote:Clearly she feels that she is a sage and her wisdom is far reaching...from her Twitter "so that nobody's mislead, this is Natalie Zarzour - the actual person - whos interests \ philosophies reach far beyond the pastry kitchen"...does anyone really care about what you think past powered sugar

Actually, now that I read the comment above in the context of her whole Tweets page, I have more sympathy for Natalie's comments about Sarah. With the comment above, she was trying to make it clear to people following her that this was not going to be the Tweetsing forum for her bakery (that is in the works), but, rather, a forum for her thoughts about life as Natalie the person. Natalie is new to Tweeterer, and she seemed genuinely surprised that so many people started following her (the person, not the bakery) so quickly. Naive, perhaps - and still a little mean spirited I think - but for me the context makes it more understandable.

Kennyz wrote:Actually, now that I read the comment above in the context of her whole Tweets page, I have more sympathy for Natalie's comments about Sarah. With the comment above, she was trying to make it clear to people following her that this was not going to be the Tweetsing forum for her bakery (that is in the works), but, rather, a forum for her thoughts about life as Natalie the person. Natalie is new to Tweeterer, and she seemed genuinely surprised that so many people started following her (the person, not the bakery) so quickly. Naive, perhaps - and still a little mean spirited I think - but for me the context makes it more understandable.

As of yesterday, Natalie had something like 20 people following her, now she's got 36. Not a lot by Twitter standards where it's not unusual for some folks to have thousands. I don't think she was caught off guard -- I mean, did she think that, by tweeting her comments, it was the same as saying them to herself? I don't think anyone these days can legitimately think that comments made on the internet, especially on Facebook and Twitter, are private. I see what you're saying but there's a certain bravado -- about her not caring whether the population agrees with her and her quoting Hegel -- that says to me that she knows quite well that she's ruffling feathers.

mrefjl wrote:I have made some snide remarks on friends Facebook pages that I wouldn't be proud to see in print, mainly because I'd hate to hurt the pocketbook of any hard working people. Isn't this what Twitter is for? Too bad the media picked up on it.

Even though I think that most everything on the internet is public, in my opinion, Twitter is more "public" than Facebook and, as such, requires a little more consideration. You need not hack into an account to view someone's Twitter comments. I don't think the media did anything wrong by reading her tweets, which are public.

I should add that I gather from Natalie's twitter account that it's probably not a good idea to bring children into PN -- she seems to be on the verge of posting a sign like the one at A Taste of Heaven, which is across the street, no?

aschie30 wrote:Even though I think that most everything on the internet is public, in my opinion, Twitter is more "public" than Facebook and, as such, requires a little more consideration. You need not hack into an account to view someone's Twitter comments. I don't think the media did anything wrong by reading her tweets, which are public.

Also public on twitter is the list of people following you.

Further evidence that the media didn't pick up on some private conversation she had with her friends: Five of her first eight followers were members of the local food media (Sula, Hammond, Sudo, Nagrant, Pang).

Also, You can choose to make your twitter feed private. She did not choose to do so.

I am not remotely suggesting that she thought she was saying this stuff privately, and I absolutely agree that she was intentionally ruffling feathers. This is a classic example of the debate about whether people with a "public" job have to live up to a higher standard in their private lives. No one would bat an eyelash if these same comments came from Joe Schmo or Kennyz. I believe that Natalie views this Tweetsy page as an outlet for her private life thoughts, which is not the same as saying she thinks the thoughts themselves will be private.

Kennyz wrote:I am not remotely suggesting that she thought she was saying this stuff privately, and I absolutely agree that she was intentionally ruffling feathers. This is a classic example of the debate about whether people with a "public" job have to live up to a higher standard in their private lives. No one would bat an eyelash if these same comments came from Joe Schmo or Kennyz. I believe that Natalie views this Tweetsy page as an outlet for her private life thoughts, which is not the same as saying she thinks the thoughts themselves will be private.

My comments, and I believe aschie30's based on her quoting, were directed more at mrefjl, who suggested that a person should have some expectation of privacy and media ignorance of their tweets.

Best,
M

eatchicago wrote:

Kennyz wrote:I am not remotely suggesting that she thought she was saying this stuff privately, and I absolutely agree that she was intentionally ruffling feathers. This is a classic example of the debate about whether people with a "public" job have to live up to a higher standard in their private lives. No one would bat an eyelash if these same comments came from Joe Schmo or Kennyz. I believe that Natalie views this Tweetsy page as an outlet for her private life thoughts, which is not the same as saying she thinks the thoughts themselves will be private.

My comments, and I believe aschie30's based on her quoting, were directed more at mrefjl, who suggested that a person should have some expectation of privacy and media ignorance of their tweets.

Best,
M

See what I mean? No one pays attention when the comments come from Kennyz

aschie30 wrote:I should add that I gather from Natalie's twitter account that it's probably not a good idea to bring children into PN -- she seems to be on the verge of posting a sign like the one at A Taste of Heaven, which is across the street, no?

I've brought my 4 year old with me to PN several times and never had any problems. I think it's just people who don't keep track of their kids that need to worry. (Which, FWIW, is how I always took the sign at A Taste of Heaven also.)

aschie30 wrote:As of yesterday, Natalie had something like 20 people following her, now she's got 36. Not a lot by Twitter standards where it's not unusual for some folks to have thousands.

Even @kennyz has 12 followers and he's never sent a single tweet! Amazingly, a few of those 12 don't immediately look like twitterbots.

Kennyz wrote:See what I mean? No one pays attention when the comments come from Kennyz

Just think how many more people could ignore your comments if you broadcast them out in 140 character bursts.

-Dan

Of course, when she had 20 followers, she thought her comments were private, but now that she has 36, the whole world is reading them...

Kennyz wrote:I believe that Natalie views this Tweetsy page as an outlet for her private life thoughts, which is not the same as saying she thinks the thoughts themselves will be private.

Fine, but when your "private life thoughts" are being zinged directly to the iPhones and Blackberries of members of the local food media and you're one of the most prominent bakers in the city . . .well, I guess, if she were to think she'd get a pass because her twitter account is in the name of "Natalie Zarzour" and not "Pasticceria Natalina," well, then that goes beyond naive, I think. It's like Barack Obama tweeting as "Barry Obama" and not "The President" and thinking that somehow those private thoughts are not relevant -- but that's I guess what your point was about Joe Schmo being able to shout out in the wind, whereas "public figures" (using that term loosely) have to be more careful.

Did I miss the post where Natalie said she intended for her comments to remain "private"? She seems kind of outspoken; she's clearly doing her own thing at a very high level; and the people here who operate at a similar level in the same general field are saying brava. So maybe pastry isn't peewee soccer and not everyone gets a trophy. Sounds as if some folks are making money and others are making art, though the two don't always converge. I think the great ones can make art, money and controversial assessments of others' work. For example, according to my sources, this sort of thing never happened to Pablo Picasso.

I love the irony of some posters above asking, essentially, who cares about a master pastry chef's criticism of another baker. String that out a bit, and who cares about that poster's thoughts, mine or anyone else's here.

For example, according to my sources, this sort of thing never happened to Pablo Picasso.

I turned the color of an avocado with laughter at that.

Mike G wrote:

For example, according to my sources, this sort of thing never happened to Pablo Picasso.

I turned the color of an avocado with laughter at that.

Nor was he ever called an a$$4ol3

=R=

It's been on my to-do list to go to Pasticceria Natalina. This has changed my mind. I read her tweets and I can't think of any excuse for her rudeness.

It's been on my to-do list to go to Pasticceria Natalina. This has changed my mind. I read her tweets and I can't think of any excuse for her rudeness.

Funny I've had a very different reaction. I’ve never eaten at Sarah’s, and I’ve eaten lots of treats that I love at PN. And a bad-ass attitude won’t make me give up those treats.

On the other hand, this whole discussion has had the perverse effect of making me really excited to try Sarah’s. The crappy ingredients, the heavily frosted cookies, the tourist trap locale—it all sounds so déclassé in the best sense of that word.

Brown wrote:It's been on my to-do list to go to Pasticceria Natalina. This has changed my mind. I read her tweets and I can't think of any excuse for her rudeness.

Wow. This is really a first for me.

Natalie is friendly, polite, and makes some of the best pastries in town. If you're not going because you don't like her tweets, it sounds to me like you're looking for a reason not to go. Or you're simply not interested in good food.

It's been on my to-do list to go to Pasticceria Natalina. This has changed my mind. I read her tweets and I can't think of any excuse for her rudeness.

MORE FOR ME!

I don't have a dog in this fight (never had either), but it is legitimate either way to say you won't patronize someone because of their viewpoints, or that you won't let someone's viewpoints keep you from enjoying their product.

Oberweis anyone?

leek wrote:I don't have a dog in this fight (never had either), but it is legitimate either way to say you won't patronize someone because of their viewpoints, or that you won't let someone's viewpoints keep you from enjoying their product.

Absolutely legitimate. I think someone should start a website with a message board so people can discuss the behavior of people in the service industry and leave us alone so we can talk about food.

eatchicago wrote:

leek wrote:I don't have a dog in this fight (never had either), but it is legitimate either way to say you won't patronize someone because of their viewpoints, or that you won't let someone's viewpoints keep you from enjoying their product.

Absolutely legitimate. I think someone should start a website with a message board so people can discuss the behavior of people in the service industry and leave us alone so we can talk about food.

All due respect, EC, but I feel that you're taking a very narrow perspective. Food procurement, preparation, presentation and consumption is behavior. It's more than just behavior, I know, but it is that and because we're interested in everything about food, it seems a legitimate topic of conversation.

I'd add to that, but I have to call Schwa back.

This whole thing has inspired me to join Twitter. I'm looking forward to witnessing more of these train wrecks first hand.

David Hammond wrote:Food procurement, preparation, presentation and consumption is behavior.

Which one of those categories do Natalie's tweets and how we feel about them fall into?

eatchicago wrote:

David Hammond wrote:Food procurement, preparation, presentation and consumption is behavior.

Which one of those categories do Natalie's tweets and how we feel about them fall into?

Not to split hairs, but we're discussing why we choose (or choose not) to procure food from a specific source. As I've mentioned in the pages of Local Beet, I'm intrigued by the narrative behind the food we eat, and this micro-feud is part of the story of Natalie's food.

Okay, if you really want teh fun, check out the 39 comments at Grub Street, where as one commenter observes:

Sarah Levy may have taken the high road by not commenting, but she has obviously done something much sneakier: convinced her patrons to inundate GrubStreet with creepy identical letters of support for her.

And no, I am NOT commenter "Mikey G."

David Hammond wrote:

eatchicago wrote:

David Hammond wrote:Food procurement, preparation, presentation and consumption is behavior.

Which one of those categories do Natalie's tweets and how we feel about them fall into?

Not to split hairs, but we're discussing why we choose (or choose not) to procure food from a specific source. As I've mentioned in the pages of Local Beet, I'm intrigued by the narrative behind the food we eat, and this micro-feud is part of the story of Natalie's food.

I have to agree with David, mainly because Natalie's comments were specifically about her craft. If she were commenting on whether there should be lights at Wrigley Field, that wouldn't be relevant here (or of much interest to me).

If I criticized a competitor or business associate publicly, I could almost guarantee that it would have a measurable effect on my business (and I am in the food industry). Will the same be true here? Not sure, but it seems like a completely valid topic of conversation.

=R=