bobby z wrote:I'm with Darren. If you like it keep going. If you can't afford it don't go. $4 for well made food, kimchi or not, is not a lot of money. If you didn't like it move on. Bill Kim is not trying to indoctrinate you, he is only trying to make a living following his bliss.

People who slam places on price are fools. How was the total experience? Was the food good? Was the place clean? What equation do you use to formulate value? Good food+good atmosphere+uniqueness=good time.

I am sorry but maybe you do not like jazz and should stick to more regimented styles.

Hey bobby z, what the F*** does jazz have to do with wasting money on poorly thought out and/or executed food and sides?

Price is absolutely something we should discuss critically here. If I can get a gallon of excellent kimchi at a Korean grocery for 10 bucks then I should absolutely question a $4 small plate of kimchi, even if it's just as good.

bobby z wrote:I'm with Darren. If you like it keep going. If you can't afford it don't go. $4 for well made food, kimchi or not, is not a lot of money. If you didn't like it move on. Bill Kim is not trying to indoctrinate you, he is only trying to make a living following his bliss.

People who slam places on price are fools. How was the total experience? Was the food good? Was the place clean? What equation do you use to formulate value? Good food+good atmosphere+uniqueness=good time.

I am sorry but maybe you do not like jazz and should stick to more regimented styles.

I have no problem with $4 kimchi ('cause I'm a baller and that's how I roll), I just find the concept of "Chino-Latino" a bit precious. I'm sure if I'm in the neighborhood at some point I'll give it a shot. Based on early reports though I won't be running over.

bobby z wrote:I'm with Darren. If you like it keep going. If you can't afford it don't go. $4 for well made food, kimchi or not, is not a lot of money. If you didn't like it move on. Bill Kim is not trying to indoctrinate you, he is only trying to make a living following his bliss.

People who slam places on price are fools. How was the total experience? Was the food good? Was the place clean? What equation do you use to formulate value? Good food+good atmosphere+uniqueness=good time.

I am sorry but maybe you do not like jazz and should stick to more regimented styles.

Well said.

On another note, I'm going to open a restaurant that will be spotless, designed so beautifully that Architectural Digest will call me once a week just begging me to let them feature it in their magazine, will play awesome music (jazz is your thing, I believe?) at the perfect volume, will employ swimsuit models (male & female, so every customer's boat is floated) as staff, and will feature good food made with high-quality, locally-sourced ingredients.

I'll charge $17 for a hot dog ($4 extra for mustard) and $9 for a side of potato chips ($2 extra for the ridged kind). You had damn well better be first in line with cash in hand. After all, it'll be a good time and a totally unique experience, and I'm only trying to make a living following my bliss.

Nevermind that you could go to Wiener and Still Champion and get a better hot dog (with mustard included for free) at 1/5 the price, or that you could buy enough high-end hot dogs, buns, mustard and chips to feed yourself & four of your friends at home - to slam my prices would make you a fool.

Or people could just continue sharing their honest impressions of restaurants based on their likes, dislikes and self-defined notions of value, as they are doing here and have done for countless other places for the past five years (what with that being the raison d'être of this site and all).

Khaopaat wrote:On another note, I'm going to open a restaurant that will be spotless, designed so beautifully that Architectural Digest will call me once a week just begging me to let them feature it in their magazine, will play awesome music (jazz is your thing, I believe?) at the perfect volume, will employ swimsuit models (male & female, so every customer's boat is floated) as staff, and will feature good food made with high-quality, locally-sourced ingredients.

Wasn't there a restaurant like that in Manhattan? Called Modelz or something like that?

I'm going to open a "fast food concept" restaurant called Bacogoat. It specializes in pork belly (of all kinds) and goat. I'll seize on all the trends, such as burgers -- bacon-goat burger with aged cheddar on a pretzel bun; $6 extra for pulled pork on it; $2 extra for a fried egg; sausages -- goat sausage, my friend, and tacos and tortas. I'll situate the fast food restaurant in a hipster 'hood off the el (maybe near THUNDERCANS). I'll make a mint and retire comfortably.

aschie30 wrote:I 'm going to open a "fast food concept" restaurant called Bacogoat. It specializes in pork belly (of all kinds) and goat. I'll seize on all the trends, such as burgers -- bacon-goat burger with aged cheddar on a pretzel bun; $6 extra for pulled pork on it; $2 extra for a fried egg; sausages -- goat sausage, my friend, and tacos and tortas. I'll situate the fast food restaurant in a hipster 'hood off the el (maybe near THUNDERCANS). I'll make a mint and retire comfortably.

Sorry aschie, I just don't think the kids* are that into the goat just quite yet. It reeks (literally) too much of the cuisines eaten in dark, forbidding haunts on shady streets like Orleans and Wilson by the people who drive them around on Saturday nights.

I think you should just call it a day and open a chino-latino place. I hear those are big nowadays.

*present company excluded, of course.

Yeah, you're probably right. I'll continue to dream the dream though.

Has it occurred to anyone else that the combining prefix of Chinese in not "Chino," but "Sino"? Grrr....

Habibi wrote:Hey bobby z, what the F*** does jazz have to do with wasting money on poorly thought out and/or executed food and sides?

Price is absolutely something we should discuss critically here. If I can get a gallon of excellent kimchi at a Korean grocery for 10 bucks then I should absolutely question a $4 small plate of kimchi, even if it's just as good.

Habibi,

You can find most things in a grocery store at a cheaper rate so what's the point in arguing that?

Also, is it common for threads to have this much discussion where people have not actually eaten there yet?

It is my understanding that the kmichi is not of the basic variety. You are paying for the atmosphere, and the uniqueness of the fare that is offered. Anyone can get a steak of high quality and cook it at home. So why do people pay so much for a steak at Peter Lugers? Why do people pay extra, because they are not able to do what the chef does. They can not provide the atmosphere of a restaurant. They like to be served. Do it yourselfers will always mock those you have it done for them. That should not lessen the craft and service that is provided. Thus a cup of $4 kimchi is most likely worth it compared to industrial $10 gallon. But than if it is quanity over quality my points are mute.

jtobin625 wrote:Also, is it common for threads to have this much discussion where people have not actually eaten there yet?

Fairly common, yes. And in the cases of Belly Shack, Xoco, the upcoming taco place from Paul Kahan, and more, the direction the threads will head is awfully predictable.

Khaopaat wrote:I'll charge $17 for a hot dog ($4 extra for mustard) and $9 for a side of potato chips ($2 extra for the ridged kind).

I believe KennyZ has already had that meal

-Dan

Chino-Latino is not a new phrase nor idea. I've heard it applied in south Florida (by Spanish speakers) for many years to Cuban-Americans of Chinese descent, of which there are a fair number. And South Florida and NYC have always had their "Chino-Latino" spots run by folks with the same background, whether Cuban or Dominican. Given the "chaufas" of Western South America, whose fried rice (chow fan) dots Ecuadorian and Peruvian menus at some old and decidedly unhip and unironic spots on the North Side, the concept of Chinese/Latin American fusion is old stuff. Now, Korean/PR I have not seen before. I like it. May I suggest Comida Boricoreana.

I still won't pay $4 for kimchee. When the Green Mill (a jazz club) starts charging $10 for PBR, I won't buy that either.

I concede your point that it can be pointless to compare store bought v. restaurant. But you are missing the heart of the matter. You criticized people in this thread for calling out a $4 side of kimchee with the general assertion that it is unreasonable to judge a restaurants by the price of it's meals. My beef was with that more general assertion. You may think that a restaurant with good atmosphere, food and service is a "value" regardless of how much it charges for those things. I disagree. My favorite restaurant in Chicago, Salam, charges about 8 bucks for a plate of hummus and shawerma, in environs I consider comfortable and squeeky clean, with excellent multi-lingual service to boot (I think Abu Shady once proposed to my girlfriend in Korean). I love the place, in my book it has no equal in Chicago. Not Trotters, not Schwa (places I have eaten). Would I pay $20 for that plate of hummus and shawerma? Hell no. And I would complain about it on LTH if that's what they charged.

aschie30 wrote:Yeah, you're probably right. I'll continue to dream the dream though.

Has it occurred to anyone else that the combining prefix of Chinese in not "Chino," but "Sino"? Grrr....

Aye, but in the Chino Latino case, Chino works (more or less) as "Chinese" or "The Chinaman" in Spanish, so in addition to the rhyme there is some sense to be made from the whole phrase.

Oddly enough, I've eaten at both Chino Latino and Ciao Mein (Chinese Italian, in Waikiki).

Curious about what makes this place's kimchee special (not saying it isn't, just wondering if anyone knows), and what makes store-bought kimchee "industrial."

I just bought what looks like a quart or so (labelled "1/4 gal" but I'm sure it's more than 16 oz) of cabbage kimchee at H Mart for less than $5 with tax. Nonetheless I am fairly confident it is handmade, if only because,m to the best of my knowledge, at least a good chunk of the kimchee-making process must be done by hand.

Given the choice between $4 for a half cup or so of kimchee handmade by a chef and $10 for a gallon of kimchee (also handmade) sold in a Korean market, I'll take and pay for the gallon.

Personally I would expect that if a small side dish of kimchee were served with a dish, it would be done without charge; if charged for it I would be willing to pay $1 for it, but not more.

Habibi wrote:My favorite restaurant in Chicago, Salam, charges about 8 bucks for a plate of hummus and shawerma, in environs I consider comfortable and squeeky clean, with excellent multi-lingual service to boot (I think Abu Shady once proposed to my girlfriend in Korean).

I love Salam also, for a lot of reasons. But I'd never describe it as squeeky clean. Clean, yes. (I hope it is clear that I'm making a joke here.)

On a more serious note, I think this discussion about the kimchi is getting a little silly. I've eaten at Urban Belly quite a few times, and I've liked almost everything I've had there. I like kimchi and I have no doubt that Urban Belly's version is very good. But it never occurred to me to order it. That doesn't mean that the whole enterprise is overpriced, misguided, or aimed at people who've never had cheap, authentic Korean food.

Kennyz wrote:the upcoming taco place from Paul Kahan

That place sucks! Overpriced crap!

So, I had lunch here today.

Yes - I had sticker shock. $11 w/ tax for a meatball sandwich and an 8.5 oz coke.

BUT...it was very good, well seasoned and plenty of food. It does look lonely in that basket - no garnish, no chips, nada.

I also had the bacon chocolate chip cookie ice cream. $4. This is NOT a bad deal - it's a generous portion and the same as you'd pay at WELCOMETOCOLDSTONECREAMERYCANITAKEYOURORDER, and much smoother. Better chocolate. And Bacon.

So...expensive - yes. Did I eyeball the McDonald's across the street and wish I had a much larger coke? Definitely. Did I not feel like a glutton afterwards and did it satisfy me all day - definitely.

I'd go back.

Bill Kim was expediting every order - he's got a rock star thing going on. He's doing his thing - and people seem to like it.

By industrial I meant non organic. Organic sustainable goods cost extra. Why should he lessen himself or his product. If you do not want to pay go else where but realize he is not a thief. You must charge more when you pay more for your goods.

Keep going to chains and the like and see where else it might take us. A destroyed planet with obese citizens is not enough?

bobby z wrote:Keep going to chains and the like and see where else it might take us. A destroyed planet with obese citizens is not enough?

Really?

bobby z wrote:By industrial I meant non organic. Organic sustainable goods cost extra. Why should he lessen himself or his product. If you do not want to pay go else where but realize he is not a thief. You must charge more when you pay more for your goods.

Keep going to chains and the like and see where else it might take us. A destroyed planet with obese citizens is not enough?

Wow...thievery accusations, epidemic obesity, corporate restaurant chains, planetary destruction...those are some very hyperbolic strawmen you've cooked up there. If you don't love Belly Shack you're with the terrorists!

I for one did not express an opinion about the whole enterprise being overpriced or misguided or aimed at people who've never had cheap, authentic Korean food; nor did I call the proprietor a thief; nor did I advocate that we all eat at chain restaurants until somehow we thereby destroy the planet. Geez. I just said I wouldn't pay $4 for a serving of kimchee. Other people can do what they want.

[quote="Katie"]
I just bought what looks like a quart or so (labelled "1/4 gal" but I'm sure it's more than 16 oz) of cabbage kimchee quote]

1/4 gallon=1 quart (i get confused by that one too sometimes)

What I meant to say was, it looks like more than a quart. But I'm not complaining!

Had lunch at Belly Shack today...still not sure what to call the type of cuisine, but it was all delicious. The flavor profiles that I got most clearly were actually Indian and Vietnamese, with bright flavors of ginger relatives (cardamom and galangal) present in both my main (Asian Meatball Sandwich with rice noodles and bean sprouts served in a large piece of naan) and side (tostones with chimichurri). The soft serve with Vietnamese cinnamon caramel was excellent. The caramel is some of the best I've had, even better than Margie's up the block (though the soft serve itself is nothing to write home about...this may be atypical, I was told I'd have to wait for my ice cream as the machine was acting up during my visit).

Yes, ~$20 for lunch is expensive, but it is not an everyday occurrence. I received more than I could eat (took 3/4 of the tostones home) and everything was highly delicious. As long as we're comparing, I couldn't say the same for Xoco.

jtobin625 wrote:Also, is it common for threads to have this much discussion where people have not actually eaten there yet?

Are you kidding? Many of our longest threads are dominated by people who have no firsthand knowledge of the topic coupled with little worthwhile to say about it. It seems they think if they repeatedly say the same thing it sounds more impressive. Facts and firsthand knowledge put uncomfortable constraints on these people.

Katie wrote:Curious about what makes this place's kimchee special (not saying it isn't, just wondering if anyone knows), and what makes store-bought kimchee "industrial."

As I mentioned nearly forty posts earlier, the kimchee I tried was made with cabbage and fennel. Koreans have a long tradition of using a wide variety of vegetables but I'd never come across fennel kimchee before. I enjoyed the kimchee during my single visit to Urban Belly last year so I was interested to try Bill Kim's latest, slightly offbeat, version. I presume he makes relatively small batches and serves them at his preferred stage of ripeness (relatively fresh, judging from my two experiences). In any case it was significantly different than what you get in giant jars from Chicago Kimchee (good stuff in its own right).

Do I regret paying $4 for a portion of well-made, interesting kimchee? No (but I'm the idiot who paid $11 for coffee then went back the next day for more). Would I regularly pay $4 for a serving of kimchee? No.

Rene G wrote:I presume he makes relatively small batches and serves them at his preferred stage of ripeness (relatively fresh, judging from my two experiences). In any case it was significantly different than what you get in giant jars from Chicago Kimchee (good stuff in its own right).

Rene G,

By posting the price of New Chicago's kimchee I was not making judgments about B Kim's $4 order of kimchee. Well, maybe a little, but if I remember correctly I enjoyed his kimchee at Urban Belly last I was there. I would like to point out one of the reasons I like New Chicago Kimchee's kimchee is that it is very fresh. I am not fond of older kimchee, I will eat it up to a point, but when it gets to the full ripe fizzy stage I use it for kimchee chigae.

My kimchee preference is similar to my kosher dill preference, I prefer new pickle to half-sour and shy away from full-sour.

Cabbage and fennel kimchee does sound tasty.

Enjoy,
Gary

Rene G wrote:I mentioned nearly forty posts earlier[/url], the kimchee I tried was made with cabbage and fennel. Koreans have a long tradition of using a wide variety of vegetables but I'd never come across fennel kimchee before. I enjoyed the kimchee during my single visit to Urban Belly last year so I was interested to try Bill Kim's latest, slightly offbeat, version. I presume he makes relatively small batches and serves them at his preferred stage of ripeness (relatively fresh, judging from my two experiences). In any case it was significantly different than what you get in giant jars from Chicago Kimchee (good stuff in its own right).

Do I regret paying $4 for a portion of well-made, interesting kimchee? No (but I'm the idiot who paid $11 for coffee then went back the next day for more). Would I regularly pay $4 for a serving of kimchee? No.

This type of reasoned post clearly has no place in this thread of extremes.

Made it to Belly Shack. Interesting experience. I get the sense that this "urban" style food is a little cute for me.

I had the aforementioned meatball sandwich. This sandwich was less than the sum of its parts. And by that I mean, not that anything was bad, but let me explain:

Meatballs: tender, flavorful if too heavy on ginger +
Pita: soft, warm, delicious +
Noodles @ bottom of pita: fine, minty +
Bean Sprouts: Clean-tasting, crunchy +
___________________________________________
Somewhat discordant combination that I wanted to take apart and eat separately. In fact, the individual parts were good, but I found that I would have preferred the noodles and sprouts to be served as a side, in a separate bowl, the meatballs eaten with a fork, and wished that there was more of the delicious sauce which was drizzled too sparingly over the meatballs into which I can dip the pita.

As a sandwich, I can't ever see myself thinking, "I must go back to have that noodle/meatball sandwich." But each part of the sandwich was well-prepared. As for price, the portion was quite generous at $8. I probably will be back to try other menu items.

Edited to add: At about 1:00, there was no line and my food came out at lightning speed. For whatever quirkiness this place has, it certainly appears to be running really smoothly.

Mellonhubby and I just got back from Belly Shack. LOVED. IT. I had the Bulgoki sandwich with kimchi; Mellonhubby had the talapia/curry sandwich. Both were very good: the talapia was seasoned and cooked perfectly and it was served with a nice curry sauce on top of really great fluffy pita. The Bulgoki sandwich had a nice kimchi with it and seemed to have a nice balance between salty, sweet, spicy, meaty, crunchy, soft, and squishy (bread) going on. Tostones with the chimichuri were awesome (could someone package those flavors and create a snack chip out of it?) We were also taken by the brussel sprouts and chorizo (though I liked the ones we had at the Bristol last night a little better.)

To the kimchi discussion upthread: yes - $4 is expensive for a side of kimchi however I think Bill Kim's is the some of the best I've tasted. Mellonhubby and I were just discussing a trip to Cho Son Ok on Thursday and how the flavors in Korean cooking can tend to be "same 'ol, same 'ol" sometimes. The flavors are spicy chili, fishy, sweet, salty, sesame and garlic. There isn't a whole lot of variance because of the chili/sesame/garlic components in a lot of the dishes - not that I don't love it - but after a while....well let's just say you've eaten one soon doo boo, you've eaten them all (well maybe not all but you get where I'm going.)

Anyway - with kimchi, you get much of the same situation - lots of 'flavor' but overall the same 'flavor profile'. What I've found with Bill Kim's kimchi is that there's usually a little something that makes his kimchi different and frankly, astonishingly good. While his kimchi is not necessarily the most traditional, I'd say that it's definately different than the "same 'ol, same 'ol" kimchi. Some like it, some don't. I happen to love it.

Yes - there is some sticker shock - $10 is a lot for a sandwich. Our total tab was $34. But I had sticker shock the first time I went to Urban Belly and yet Mellonhubby and I find ourselves back there at least once a month. After tonight's dinner I suspect we'll be back at the Belly Shack more often than even Urban Belly.