Habibi wrote:How big are those pizzas? Are we talking Spacca Napoli size, or a little bigger like Coalfire? Just like to know before spending 24 bones.

They are approximately the same size as Spacca Napoli.

Though I will say, we usually order 3 pizzas for the 4 of us at Spacca Napoli (a piece or two comes home), and have always been fine with 2 at Great Lake (and sometimes bring some home as well). So I don't think the price is a huge difference there, you seem to spend $47 either way.

I can certainly see going to Great Lake and deciding it's not worth the money, but I'm always surprised by the argument that because they've spent $15 for mediocre pizza and felt cheated, they wouldn't spend $20 for greatness. I guess I think the exact opposite way-- a really great $50 pizza would be a better deal to me than a lousy $5 one, by definition, though it might be a rare indulgence.

Mike G wrote:Though I will say, we usually order 3 pizzas for the 4 of us at Spacca Napoli (a piece or two comes home), and have always been fine with 2 at Great Lake (and sometimes bring some home as well). So I don't think the price is a huge difference there, you seem to spend $47 either way.

The crust is much thicker around the edges (and thus more filling) at Great Lake.

Mike G wrote:I can certainly see going to Great Lake and deciding it's not worth the money, but I'm always surprised by the argument that because they've spent $15 for mediocre pizza and felt cheated, they wouldn't spend $20 for greatness. I guess I think the exact opposite way-- a really great $50 pizza would be a better deal to me than a lousy $5 one, by definition, though it might be a rare indulgence.

That's true. But I've never felt cheated by inexpensive fresh garlic, and don't believe that there is any level of greatness that garlic could achieve to justify a $3 sprinkling on a pie. Ditto for $10 celery root and carrots.

stevez wrote:Yes. She was made to stand

What?! :-@

Mike G wrote:Though I will say, we usually order 3 pizzas for the 4 of us at Spacca Napoli (a piece or two comes home), and have always been fine with 2 at Great Lake (and sometimes bring some home as well). So I don't think the price is a huge difference there, you seem to spend $47 either way.

I can certainly see going to Great Lake and deciding it's not worth the money, but I'm always surprised by the argument that because they've spent $15 for mediocre pizza and felt cheated, they wouldn't spend $20 for greatness. I guess I think the exact opposite way-- a really great $50 pizza would be a better deal to me than a lousy $5 one, by definition, though it might be a rare indulgence.

This is a fair point. I've never walked out of Spacca or Coalfire (or even D'Amatos for that matter) thinking "what a bargain." I usually end up spending 20-30 bucks a person with drinks and feel it's justified as a luxury.

Both of my visits to Great Lake have been as a party of 3, and both times we ordered 2 pizzas, and no salads or apps. First time we had some leftover slices, second time we polished off everything. It's been over a year since I was at Spacca Napoli, but I think GL's pizzas are larger, and more filling because of the crust as stevez said.

It's expensive pizza, and yeah that $3 charge for garlic seemed high. But...pull out the menu for your local standard-issue Chicago thin place...how much are they charging per extra ingredient? I order from Pete's on Western sometimes...website says it's $1.80 on a 12", $2.10 on a 14", $2.25 on a 16"...

I've haven't left Great Lake feeling like I overpaid. Granted I didn't order the cauliflower (actually, it wasn't even available on Wed)...but between 3 friends, 1 bottle of wine, and 4 beers, the check was $58.82. We left a tip on top of that, but obviously, we didn't have any service issues (none of us were made to stand!).

stevez wrote:Yes. She was made to stand, though by the time I left, she had snuck a seat from somewhere else and had not yet been chastened.

I was starting to think I might give them a try now that the madness has died down, but this is a dealbreaker. The inflated prices I could swallow as an experiment ("I've gotta find out if a $24 pizza is worth it, just once," that kind of thing), but a place that would treat a customer like that is a place I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot barge pole.

Why do people feel they can move furniture around in a restaurant as if it were their own home? I wonder if the outcome would have been different if they'd simply asked to move the chair before actually doing so. They probably would have received a reasonable explanation.

My guess is that this perceived act of inconsideration was ultimately intended as consideration for the overall collective of customers. It's a small space and perhaps Lydia wanted to ensure that if other customers entered, they'd have access to the use of the chair, where it belonged (at the proper table, not blocking an aisle). Maybe she didn't want her customers to have to confront each about the chair. Perhaps she wanted to maintain order and keep her dining room from becoming a free-for-all. Perhaps she wanted to be in compliance with some code or ordinance.

I'm not saying I'd run my business in this manner but I can see where presumptuous, furniture-moving customers could be annoying.

=R=

Kennyz wrote:just noticed that one - $3 for garlic?!??!!!? That might be even worse than the $9 cailiflower. Insanity.

ronnie_suburban wrote:Why do people feel they can move furniture around in a restaurant as if it were their own home? I wonder if the outcome would have been different if they'd simply asked to move the chair before actually doing so.

I actually don't disagree, and it would have been nice for the customer to ask first. But two things: 1) It's not The Everest Room. Situation matters. There are places I would never ever think to do this, and other places it might actually seem pretty OK. And 2) Once the customer did presumptuously (and yes, annoyingly in her presumptuousness) move the chair, just let it go.

One detail I'm not clear on, which maybe Steve can clear up. Was that the last empty seat in the place? I.e., by presumptuously moving the chair, did the presumptuous customer make it so that someone arriving at another table would have to stand, and no chair at any other table could be moved to accommodate this new customer? Short of that (and I'm not sure even that would excuse the owner's conduct), the owner's response just resembles punishment for the sadistic fun of it.

riddlemay wrote:One detail I'm not clear on, which maybe Steve can clear up. Was that the last empty seat in the place? I.e., by presumptuously moving the chair, did the presumptuous customer make it so that someone arriving at another table would have to stand, and no chair at any other table could be moved to accommodate this new customer? Short of that (and I'm not even sure this excuses the owner's conduct), it just resembles punishment for the sadistic fun of it.

To me this is irrelevant. Having been to Great Lake, I know how small the space is and completely appreciate any effort made to maintain order there. The bottom line is that it's their dining room and if they want the chairs in certain places, that's where they should be. They don't need to explain it, although they probably would have, if asked.

=R=

That's true. But I've never felt cheated by inexpensive fresh garlic, and don't believe that there is any level of greatness that garlic could achieve to justify a $3 sprinkling on a pie. Ditto for $10 celery root and carrots.

How about $1 for great garlic, $1 for insane Andersonville property taxes, and $1 for the fact that they can get away with it, based on their crowds?

I don't disagree with you that it's a crazy upcharge, and I'm sure very soon, nobody will go there as a result.

Mike G wrote:I'm always surprised by the argument that because they've spent $15 for mediocre pizza and felt cheated, they wouldn't spend $20 for greatness.

I recall the early discussions of Coalfire, where some few people complained about the seemingly (to me) minimal prices for different/extra toppings and someone else rising to the defense of the establishment by making the case the total price of the pizzas (including the extras) represented an excellent value because of the high-quality presented (and the quantity) and also in comparison to prices for similar pizzas elsewhere in the USA.

I buy my garlic from this little hole in the wall organic grocer in Rogers Park (so you know I'm paying an embarassing sum, but the workers are sweet and I like helping them) and yeah even with that in mind I still balk at $3 for garlic.

Perhaps I was there at a totally different time than the person who got chided for being on the phone and moving a chair, but at 7 PM last night, the room wasn't so busy that I can imagine that would be a problem. It does sound like a bit of an overreaction. It wouldn't be the first time that the owners/employees at a wildly popular restaurant acted in such a manner, though.

Will I go back to Great Lake? Probably not. But I did like the pizza a lot and I'm glad I tried it.

ronnie_suburban wrote:

riddlemay wrote:One detail I'm not clear on, which maybe Steve can clear up. Was that the last empty seat in the place? I.e., by presumptuously moving the chair, did the presumptuous customer make it so that someone arriving at another table would have to stand, and no chair at any other table could be moved to accommodate this new customer? Short of that (and I'm not even sure this excuses the owner's conduct), it just resembles punishment for the sadistic fun of it.

To me this is irrelevant. Having been to Great Lake, I know how small the space is and completely appreciate any effort made to maintain order there. The bottom line is that it's their dining room and if they want the chairs in certain places, that's where they should be. They don't need to explain it, although they probably would have, if asked.

=R=

I'm certainly not passing judgment. It's their restaurant and they can run it as they see fit. I just thought it was kind of an odd way to react to a situation that didn't need reacting to, but it was some amusing entertainment. The fact that the woman didn't walk out of the restaurant after being scolded like a 5 year old, but instead chose to stand there and share her pizza with her friends while everyone in the entire place stared at her is testament to the quality of the food. FWIW, it wasn't the last chair in the place and it was an orphan (a lone chair at the corner of the otherwise occupied communal table). All she did was turn it around to sit at the small table next to where the chair already was.

I did not try Great Lakes for a long time due to various issues, like the lines and prices and all the hype. After a ridiculously long wait, I was prepared--predisposed even--to hate it or at least find it mediocre and overrated. I loved it. For me it's well worth the price. Shucks, a 1-topping at Pete's is $14.

As to service, I think of Great Lakes like Burt's. I readjust my expectations for these places and will tolerate a lot more than I normally would. I have a breaking point--being made to stand would be one of them--but I hope it doesn't happen because I love the pizza in both of these places.

stevez wrote:The fact that the woman didn't walk out of the restaurant after being scolded like a 5 year old, but instead chose to stand there and share her pizza with her friends while everyone in the entire place stared at her is testament to the quality of the food. FWIW, it wasn't the last chair in the place and it was an orphan (a lone chair at the corner of the otherwise occupied communal table). All she did was turn it around to sit at the small table next to where the chair already was.

It's a testament to something, alright, especially in light of your last two sentences there. Not sure if it's the food

submitted without comment:

Main Entry: hos·pi·ta·ble
1 a : given to generous and cordial reception of guests b : promising or suggesting generous and cordial welcome c : offering a pleasant or sustaining environment

I went once, waaay back before the madness hit, and enjoyed my pizza and experience at Great Lake very much. I haven't been back because I hate waiting in line and do it only rarely (I prefer to handle madding crowds by going while they're all at work - if a place gets so popular there aren't any "down" times, there are lots of other places to eat)

However, now that things have calmed down, I'm thinking of going back. Those of you who are reading this thread and are skeptical, I'd say it's a whole-is-greater-than-the-sum situation. I'm well-known for being cheap, avoid many places on price alone, but I'm planning a return trip for pizza (in some ways to see if it lives up to my memory.) After all, $24 to feed two people isn't beyond the pale (of course, the price goes up if you follow it with a visit to Pasticceria Natalina, but it gives you a good excuse to leave room and forget the extra pizzas and sides)

Value

Don't get me wrong. I try to save money and find value when I can and when I first started posting on this forum I did occasionally complain about some of the prices that can be charged for various things...

$16 hamburgers?
$5 skimpy Italian Beefs?
$50 steaks?
$175 dinners?

... and now $22 14" Pizza's?

What I have learned that sometimes either the fame, ambiance, quality and taste will often cause the prices to soar.

Now, I will often visit some of these places to check them out and I am often very pleased and I have shifted my view. I no longer object to the upcharge as I often have a fabulous meal but I usually do not make plans to return no matter how good the experience was. Well, maybe for a special occasion.

One last thing. With all of the items being sourced locally and attempting to keep quality high there is not a good distribution network to obtain these items. The owners must make special arrangements to have items delivered, go to the local markets and pick out and buy the items, maybe even take regular trips to Wisconsin or Indiana.

Owner Attitude

No Soup (Pizza) for You!

You Must Stand!
You cannot place a phone order!

I would believe this to be a personality thing. I am sure there are strong reasons for the owner to take such actions that will inconvenience us and they just are not as gentle with us as other places might be. Think Burt's and their insistence at ordering in advance.

They are not traditional pizza makers but artists with an amount of fame. Often artists develop a certain amount of arrogance.

Will I stop by and give their wares a try? Yes!
Will it become a regular part of my rotation? Doubtfully. It would have to send me to heaven and I am too much of a traditional guy for that to happen (I think ).

PlayItGeorge wrote:

stevez wrote:The fact that the woman didn't walk out of the restaurant after being scolded like a 5 year old, but instead chose to stand there and share her pizza with her friends while everyone in the entire place stared at her is testament to the quality of the food. FWIW, it wasn't the last chair in the place and it was an orphan (a lone chair at the corner of the otherwise occupied communal table). All she did was turn it around to sit at the small table next to where the chair already was.

It's a testament to something, alright, especially in light of your last two sentences there. Not sure if it's the food

My first reaction is that no matter how good the pizza is (and I'm willing to stipulate that it is the greatest pizza in the history of mankind), the woman's choosing to stand and remain there is a symptom of scarily low self-esteem.

My first reaction is that no matter how good the pizza is (and I'm willing to stipulate that it is the greatest pizza in the history of mankind), the woman's choosing to stand and remain there is a symptom of scarily low self-esteem.

So do you think I should get the one with the cremini mushrooms and the mona, or should I stick to the basics, tomato and mozz?

Remember a few years ago when the economy was "good" and upscale hotel restaurants were offering gold-leaf covered hamburgers with foie gras, truffles, sea salt, and ketchup made from ground alagoas curassows? Could those burgers possibly have tasted any better than a That's-A-Burger? Or the Primehouse recession special? Other than the novelty and chic of having had one, were the diners enriched or satiated in any way?

Vera pizza is a street and tavern food. The best long-rise wood-burning brick oven pizza in the world (Naples) costs the equivalent of $7 for something larger than Great Lakes, and that's with a tourist upcharge. Local sourcing is a fact of life and not a self-martyring labor. I am at a total loss in comprehending the designer pricetag on similar American pizzas at Great Lake, and Totonno's and Lucali (to take two others from Richman's list, though having eaten at the latter and researched the former, those pizzas are larger and less expensive even with the fame premium).

Why does eating post-Neapolitan pizza in America (and specifically, Chicago) have to be the apotheosis of the flatbread experience? All sorts of other street foods, we eat at modest prices with some correlation to their places of origin. What is it about pizza that makes the more substantive neighborhood pies we grew up with cost so much less than the "ethereal" de rigueur European thin crusts? Why do some Chicago foodies so readily accept novelty prices for this category of food and poke fun at all other inflated offerings? If the answer is "art," I'd like some insight on why pizza is an art, and falafel isn't.

Mike G wrote:

My first reaction is that no matter how good the pizza is (and I'm willing to stipulate that it is the greatest pizza in the history of mankind), the woman's choosing to stand and remain there is a symptom of scarily low self-esteem.

So do you think I should get the one with the cremini mushrooms and the mona, or should I stick to the basics, tomato and mozz?

That depends on whether the owner makes you stand and eat your pizza in the corner. Just how far are you willing to go?

teatpuller wrote:submitted without comment:

Main Entry: hos·pi·ta·ble
1 a : given to generous and cordial reception of guests b : promising or suggesting generous and cordial welcome c : offering a pleasant or sustaining environment

Well, we've all been around long enough to know that not everyone plays by the same rules. Not all restaurants view themselves as being part of the hospitality industry.

As I posted above, this isn't how I would have chosen to handle this situation (assuming that I was in control of my emotions and acting rationally) but I also realize that very few situations like this are as black and white as they initially seem. Still, the bottom line is that when you have a small place, are wildly popular and have a line out the door most of the time, you don't have to put up with a whole bunch of stuff.

=R=

You find me some falafel that's worth $6 a patty, and we'll talk.

Generally, I'm with you. Pizza has qualities that make my value-o-meter run differently. First is that it's darn difficult to find really good bread of any kind in the Chicago area (and I'll pay an upcharge for really good bread) For me, pizza is about the bread, and how the other things on it enhance and improve the bread. Most Chicago pizza, thin or thick, doesn't really scratch this itch for me. I also can't make pizza of this kind at home - a big factor, because one factor in my food dollar value calculation is "do I really need to go out for this."

Second, you can walk into a pizza joint, eat a pizza with a glass of water, and walk out having sufficiently fulfilled my parameters for lunch, or dinner, or whatever. Many other places, you need to fill out your meal with drinks, appetizers, sides, desserts, etc, so when you talk $24 it really means $50. This tips the scale as well.

Take these two things together, I'm willing to try Great Lake again. I won't be getting anything but pizza when I'm there. (I'm still waiting to get down to Coalfire, location is the only thing that's stopping me.) I'm also with Panther, I doubt it will be part of my regular rotation. Before I went, I did think the price of this pizza was nuts (and I oppose paying an upcharge for a food's philosophy) but I enjoyed it 100% more than the food at my last visit to a fine dining establishment whose food cost twice as much, and I felt the ingredients were chosen to make better pizza, rather than to make a statement.

I'm with you, Mhays. With Mike G too. I could see paying 20, 30, even 50 bucks for a truly outstanding pizza. If there is not artistry in making a great pizza, there is at least unique, hard-to-find skill that I value tremendously. In roasting cauliflower or chopping garlic though, not so much. Unfortunately, I have a hard time getting over my F-You reaction to seeing that cauliflower price, and it will color my opinion of the whole place.

Kennyz wrote:

thaiobsessed wrote:stevez,
...the salads at Great Lake are outstanding and I think the quality of the produce justifies the price they charge.

The quality-of-produce argument doesn't fly when the prices are this out of whack. It's so rare for me to complain about restaurant prices, but the Great Lake menu nauseates me. Celery root and carrots are among the cheapest things at the farmers markets, and I buy them from the same vendors that Great Lake uses. $10 for a celery root and carrot salad makes me want to say F-You to the people who think to charge it, expecially when those people are serving it from what is essentially a fast food takeout counter.

Just think, you could walk around the corner to to the takeout counter at Homemade Pizza Company and get a spinach salad for only $7.75. Such a deal!

As far as the woman being scolded for taking a seat, I don't understand what the big problem is. Plenty of places in this town have a "we won't seat your party unless the entire party is there" policy, and I don't see people up in arms about it. If this group had told the folks at GL the total number of seats they needed, I'm sure they would have either been provided that number of seats or been told "we won't seat you until everyone is here". I have a hard time believing that they said "we're a party of three, only two are here" were then only provided two seats, and scolded when a third was taken.

In a restaurant that seats, what, 14 people, and often has a wait list to get a table, walking in and just taking a seat is rude. Someone else may have very patiently put themself on the list for that table and just received the call that their table was ready - wouldn't you be pissed if you arrived to a place and was told "well, your table was ready, but we let that woman take one of your chairs".

I've only been a couple of times, but I've been thoroughly impressed with the pizza and always received good service - in fact, I have plans to order a pie from there tonight.

-Dan

dansch wrote:

Kennyz wrote:

thaiobsessed wrote:stevez,
...the salads at Great Lake are outstanding and I think the quality of the produce justifies the price they charge.

The quality-of-produce argument doesn't fly when the prices are this out of whack. It's so rare for me to complain about restaurant prices, but the Great Lake menu nauseates me. Celery root and carrots are among the cheapest things at the farmers markets, and I buy them from the same vendors that Great Lake uses. $10 for a celery root and carrot salad makes me want to say F-You to the people who think to charge it, expecially when those people are serving it from what is essentially a fast food takeout counter.

Just think, you could walk around the corner to to the takeout counter at Homemade Pizza Company and get a spinach salad for only $7.75. Such a deal!

If I implied that Great Lake is the only place that makes me want to say F-You, let me clarify: F-You to Homemade Pizza, Sepia, Nichols Farm, Trotter's to Go, Blue Marble, Fox & Obel, Boardman's Kitchen, Rise Sushi, Gibson's, some tomato guy at the Logan Square Farmer's Market, Mayor Daley (food-related reason, no need to pull post) and more.