Kennyz wrote:

dansch wrote:

Kennyz wrote:How much were the cannoli a year ago? I don't know if I just have a bad memory, but when I saw today's $7 price tag I nearly leapt in shock. $7 for one cannolo?!?! I know they're great, but wowsa.

Makes the garlic around the corner seem downright cheap.

-Dan

True, though I'm willing to buy Natalie's argument that her cream-filled shell is good for sex. Lydia's garlic, not so much.

If you've never tried that garlic, perhaps you shouldn't dismiss it as something you wouldn't like.

-Dan

He never said he hasn't tried it!

Re that last tweet:

The great thing about buying food you've never had before at PN is that you basically get to experience both of those at the same time....

cilantro wrote:Re that last tweet:

The great thing about buying food you've never had before at PN is that you basically get to experience both of those at the same time....

And cilantro wins the thread!

While the LTH men ruminate over Natalie's last deep thought (put so concisely by cilantro), I'm more concerned with her statement that "Pastry is a luxury artform, period." Her "logic" goes like this: High end pastry ≠ inexpensive pastry. Inexpensive pastry = imitation pastry. High end pastry = luxury art form. Thus, any pastry that is not a luxury art form is not pastry.

Huh? Since when is all (read: real) pastry a "luxury art form?" I could see the argument that artisinal pastry is an art form, but a luxury one? And by her logic, any pastry that is not a luxury art form, is just fake, and we should flog ourselves for mindlessly eating that junk. Nice argument, though, to justify the shop's prices.

I was most disturbed by this:

And why do we embrace cheap meals? Low prices are just a screaming red flag that something is very wrong. Especially with ethnic foods.

Though I suppose given the $7 price tag for a cannoli, the sentiment is not surprising.

I'm not actually disturbed at all by any of Natalie's tweets. If anything, I find them quirky and entertaining enough to draw me into the store even more. Not only does she make great stuff, she's an amusing character too. I'd like Rush Limbaugh too if he could bake. My only problem is with those darn prices, which I find far more offensive than the fat-bashing, foodiephobic and child-hating nonsense she tweets about.

Suzy Creamcheese wrote:I was most disturbed by this:

And why do we embrace cheap meals? Low prices are just a screaming red flag that something is very wrong. Especially with ethnic foods.

Though I suppose given the $7 price tag for a cannoli, the sentiment is not surprising.

I can understand disagreement. But why does it disturb you?

I think she is simply pointing out that people are more easily impressed by low prices than by quality. While there are certainly examples of restaurants (ethnic or not) that are both high quality and inexpensive, I think she is in general correct.

I'll also add that I'd rather buy her cannoli than pay half as much for one that isn't as good.

Darren72 wrote:

Suzy Creamcheese wrote:I was most disturbed by this:

And why do we embrace cheap meals? Low prices are just a screaming red flag that something is very wrong. Especially with ethnic foods.

Though I suppose given the $7 price tag for a cannoli, the sentiment is not surprising.

I can understand disagreement. But why does it disturb you?

I think she is simply pointing out that people are more easily impressed by low prices than by quality. While there are certainly examples of restaurants (ethnic or not) that are both high quality and inexpensive, I think she is in general correct.

I'll also add that I'd rather buy her cannoli than pay half as much for one that isn't as good.

I agree that people are most impressed by "value". And also that I would rather (budget allowing) spend more money for quality food. But I read that tweet through the lens of my experience patronizing numerous cheap ethnic joints, and it put me off. Why especially ethnic foods? If anything, my observation has been that ethnic joints tend to offer a fairly high cost-quality ratio.

But maybe she knows something about what goes on in those kitchens that I don't

Darren72 wrote:I'll also add that I'd rather buy her cannoli than pay half as much for one that isn't as good.

I would too, and I often pay extra in general for what I consider higher quality foodstuff. But things in life need to pass some sort of ridiculousness test. $7 for a single, solitary cannolo fails, as do $9 for some cauliflower and 3 bucks to top my pizza with garlic at a neighborhood takeout joint.

She has no idea what is going on in cheap ethnic kitchens. Its a matter of fact that many of those restaurants cater to large working-class clientele. It is also a matter of fact that many of the ingredients they use are relatively cheap - starches, pulses, cuts of meat meant for long cooking. There also isn't a shit ton of artisan or intricate work required in those kitchens - they aren't putting out complicated plates or precious desserts with obscure ingredients. At the end of the day its a blessing that many restaurants can put out great, cheap ethnic food because of a combination of the aforementioned factors. It also helps that a lot of these restaurants, Ghareeb Nawaz for example, move a lot of plates per day, so they don't need to charge as much per plate.

I love Pasticceria Natalina, and won't stop going there until the cannolo hits ten bones and average desserts top out at 12-15 dollars. Its not an everyday place for me, or even a place I visit more than a few times a year, but when I do go, it is worth it, and I am usually not taking price into consideration.

But what I said still stands. The girl knows shit about ethnic cuisine based on that tweet. And furthermore from a Marxist perspective, her moronic tweets come off as a petty bourgeois critique of genuine working-class expressions of culture, ripe with the same commodity fetishism she claims to deride. I challenge her artisanal ass to make a $1.00 nan that has Indian, Pakistani, Somali and Arab cab drivers lining up for a taste (as well as myself and many LTHers). That's where the art is. OK, enough ranting, I'm off to Ghareeb Nawaz for some goat paya. $3.99 motherfu#ker!

Ha-"a specter is descending upon Andersonville"-bibi.

Suzy Creamcheese wrote:If anything, my observation has been that ethnic joints tend to offer a fairly high cost-quality ratio.

I think you mean a low cost to quality ratio.

Darren72 wrote:

Suzy Creamcheese wrote:If anything, my observation has been that ethnic joints tend to offer a fairly high cost-quality ratio.

I think you mean a low cost to quality ratio.

Math is hard.

aschie30 wrote:Her "logic" goes like this: High end pastry ≠ inexpensive pastry. Inexpensive pastry = imitation pastry. High end pastry = luxury art form. Thus, any pastry that is not a luxury art form is not pastry.

I'd reformulate her flawed syllogism anytime. Wait, what?

...

In any case, I'm looking forward to their REAL. ARTISTAN. BREAD., just announced later today. Hope it's less than eighteen-fiddy a loaf.

Santander wrote:

aschie30 wrote:Her "logic" goes like this: High end pastry ≠ inexpensive pastry. Inexpensive pastry = imitation pastry. High end pastry = luxury art form. Thus, any pastry that is not a luxury art form is not pastry.

I'd reformulate her flawed syllogism anytime. Wait, what?

...

In any case, I'm looking forward to their REAL. ARTISTAN. BREAD., just announced later today. Hope it's less than eighteen-fiddy a loaf.

so much for her early claim that this was the Natalie Zarzour twitter account, with her emphasis that it would not be about happenings at the Pasticceria.

Check it out, if I replace "pastry" with "vodka":

aschie30 wrote:Her "logic" goes like this: High end vodka ≠ inexpensive vodka. Inexpensive vodka = imitation vodka. High end vodka = luxury art form. Thus, any vodka that is not a luxury art form is not vodka.

I get meeting minutes from the marketing department conference rooms of Grey Goose, Belvedere, and just about every other "super-premium" vodka brand ever invented.

I was just sharing all this action with my very non-LTHForum husband, trying to give a play-by-play and I mentioned the Tweet comment from Natalie with the equation with ethnic being cheap/low quality. We have been going to NP since the day they opened their doors. Not on a weekly basis mind you, since we have kids (they aren't so into them but have never hissed at them) but more importantly, we treat it as a very special indulgence in our neighborhood. We always, always bring out of town guests there. We buy hostess gifts from NP when we really like the hostess. Anyhow, when I shared the ethnic comment, Ted guffawed. "But he's Lebanese and she's made a huge deal out of her Sicilian heritage! I always thought their ethnicity played a big part in their identity and that of the bakery itself." Me too. I like what they do and have been insanely impressed by the energy and time they put into the bakery (as far i can tell, for the last three years it has been Natalie, Nick and a young Guatemalan-American woman churning out everything--even during the holidays). But I am bummed that she's making comments that seem really, um, Low Quality.

bjt

bjt wrote:But I am bummed that she's making comments that seem really, um, Low Quality.

Agreed.

bjt wrote:... I mentioned the Tweet comment from Natalie with the equation with ethnic being cheap/low quality. ...

I think you have this backwards. She didn't say all ethnic food is cheap or low quality. Go back and read what she said.

More importantly, could we get this forum back on track?

Mixed media/mixed up media?

LTHForum posts re Natalie (@inourownhands) twitter feed, twitter tweets on LTH comments on twitter comments round & round & round

$7 for a single, solitary cannolo fails

Seriously. I love cannoli but there are limits. Though you got to wonder, at $7 a pop how small a volume are they moving to need to charge that much to make sure they cover their costs etc. And its a potentially vicious cycle - fewer people buy at that price & as volume drops further, prices need to rise to cover fixed costs.

I'd rather spend $8 at Jimmy Jamm's for the pie flight and a cup of coffee. Three mini slices of utterly delicious pie complete with pleasant company is much more to my taste.

I think you have this backwards. She didn't say all ethnic food is cheap or low quality. Go back and read what she said.

You are right. I re-read it and I believe she is saying that people should not come to expect (she uses the word embrace) that ethnic food be cheap. Which is very different than saying ethnic food = low quality. I apologize for mis-reading.

bjt

This thread belongs on Shut Up Foodies. Is it really all that serious?

They offer a product and service which you can choose to buy or not to buy. They offer quality product at a price. They have their philosophy and the customer can choose to accept it or not.

I enjoy going in on Sunday's just to try something new and something I can't get anywhere else. About 150 places are doing cupcakes. I can get those anywhere. I hate sweets and find most desserts to be awful, too sweet, and gut-busting.

If you live in the neighborhood, rarely is there a time when they are not there with the store open or working after hours. They work hard, they make me laugh, they treat me well when I get my indulgence for the week, and they make a good product.

With all that being said, I can't spell the dessert I had last week to then elaborate with too many adjectives to tell you how great it was.

jtobin625 wrote:This thread belongs on Shut Up Foodies. Is it really all that serious?

They offer a product and service which you can choose to buy or not to buy. They offer quality product at a price. They have their philosophy and the customer can choose to accept it or not.

Ah, the "if you don't like it, don't go there/don't you people have more serious things to talk about" post. Is there a Godwin's Law equivalent to describe its inevitability?

jtobin625 wrote:Is it really all that serious?

You should hang out in the Great Lake thread sometime.

jtobin625 wrote:They offer a product and service which you can choose to buy or not to buy. They offer quality product at a price. They have their philosophy and the customer can choose to accept it or not.

There are two separate issues going on here.

One is them offering a high-quality product at fairly steep prices, without compromise. On that point, I totally agree with you. (I also hate cupcakes)

The other issue is a person in the Chicago food community standing up and saying some pretty outrageous things. Slamming her competition with insults, picking at Chicago's food writers and bloggers (and telling us that by nature, people are bi-sexual and all men would like it up the ...). On that issue, I think there's a completely valid discussion.

-Dan

dansch wrote:The other issue is a person in the Chicago food community standing up and saying some pretty outrageous things. Slamming her competition with insults, picking at Chicago's food writers and bloggers (and telling us that by nature, people are bi-sexual and all men would like it up the ...). On that issue, I think there's a completely valid discussion.

-Dan

Some of what you note above is not appropriate for a culinary forum. For the rest, one has to wonder whether the conversation has reached the point where intelligent discussion has ended.

Darren72 wrote:

dansch wrote:The other issue is a person in the Chicago food community standing up and saying some pretty outrageous things. Slamming her competition with insults, picking at Chicago's food writers and bloggers (and telling us that by nature, people are bi-sexual and all men would like it up the ...). On that issue, I think there's a completely valid discussion.

-Dan

Some of what you note above is not appropriate for a culinary forum. For the rest, one has to wonder whether the conversation has reached the point where intelligent discussion has ended.

The woman has ambitions of doing television. This kind of stuff is not going to help her reach her goal. I don't think her twittering is doing her any favors.

Regards,

dansch wrote:
The other issue is a person in the Chicago food community standing up and saying some pretty outrageous things. Slamming her competition with insults, picking at Chicago's food writers and bloggers (and telling us that by nature, people are bi-sexual and all men would like it up the ...). On that issue, I think there's a completely valid discussion.

what comes to mind when I went to these links and read this individuals sage wisdom on these topics is:

is her wacky opinions are not going to do anything positive for her or her business.

Cathy2 wrote:The woman has ambitions of doing television. This kind of stuff is not going to help her reach her goal. I don't think her twittering is doing her any favors.

Perhaps she could do something with Gordon Ramsay.

Darren72 wrote:

dansch wrote:The other issue is a person in the Chicago food community standing up and saying some pretty outrageous things. Slamming her competition with insults, picking at Chicago's food writers and bloggers (and telling us that by nature, people are bi-sexual and all men would like it up the ...). On that issue, I think there's a completely valid discussion.

-Dan

Some of what you note above is not appropriate for a culinary forum. For the rest, one has to wonder whether the conversation has reached the point where intelligent discussion has ended.

I'm just not capable of separating the tweets from the business, especially since some of them focus on food, eating, etc. For those here who are capable of doing so, I commend you. I'm just not that enlightened.

I'm not saying the tweets would keep me from patronizing PN -- and I count Natalie as a friend -- but it'd be impossible to go there now without thinking about them. I also believe (speaking personally, not as a moderator) that it's entirely appropriate to discuss the tweets here, as long as the discussion remains civil.

=R=