I'm a professional philosopher. That is, people pay me to research, write, and teach on philosophical topics. This thread is a philosophical topic. I'm not going to get involved in it on a philosophical level, not a chance. Reason being, there's not a snowball's chance in hell of reaching any semblance of a philosophically satisfactory conclusion. Something like that takes hectoliters of good will, buckets of patience, and lots of facts. I'm willing to talk facts. Some of us, I'm thinking here of auxen1 in particular, have mixed it up pretty good in the past, but in the end, where we talked about mutually agreeable reasonably empirical points, no one left totally pissed off.

My other life revolves around grapes, I've grown grapes, made wine, since '72, much of that time commercially. I still have a microvineyard of my own, and I still consult. So here are some principles that I adhere to. First, and foremost, intervene only when I have to, and only when I know it will be efficacious. Secondly, make my intervention at the minimum effective level. Here are some example of what I mean.

The only really bad insects we regularly get in central MO/KS are grape flea beetle and grape berry moth. One spray of a relatively innocuous (and yes, I know what these words mean) organo-phosphate done at the very first sight of a single flea beetle will solve the problem. Two years out of three I don't need the spray. But I have to pay careful attention to my vines just before bud push in order to see whether or not I need the spray. Typically, the extension bulletin requires the spray as a preventative. My experience is that it can frequently be avoided. Berry moth threats can be considerably lessened by good sanitation in the vineyard. And if, one year, I get an infestation, I know that BT--a bacterial infusion (like, totally organic)--can solve my problems.

What I'm saying here is that I'm a minimalist. I'm not organic, but I'm sympathetic to that view. I use the absolutely minimal amount of pesticide that I can get away with. And, oh, by the way, I grow resistant grapes, grapes that have been bred for low-maintainance success. If you keep your vines healthy, if you practice good sanitation, if you're willing to put up with a bit of damage, and if you're willing to intervene in a minimalist fashion, I think that wine can be produced with a minimal strain on Mother Earth.

A bit of philosophy seems to have crept in, but I think my point is nevertheless clear enough.

Geo

Geo wrote:The only really bad insects we regularly get in central MO/KS are grape flea beetle and grape berry moth. One spray of a relatively innocuous (and yes, I know what these words mean) organo-phosphate done at the very first sight of a single flea beetle will solve the problem. Two years out of three I don't need the spray. But I have to pay careful attention to my vines just before bud push in order to see whether or not I need the spray. Typically, the extension bulletin requires the spray as a preventative. My experience is that it can frequently be avoided. Berry moth threats can be considerably lessened by good sanitation in the vineyard. And if, one year, I get an infestation, I know that BT--a bacterial infusion (like, totally organic)--can solve my problems.

That is about where I fall. In 1985, while in Watertown, NY, I saw a swarm of potato beetles take down a half acre of potato plants in a single day because the 90 year old women forgot to dust the leaves as she was ill for a couple of days. Her son's potato plants were unscathed that day.

In my family, pesticides have always been pretty expensive and applied only where absolutely necessary.

Gee, I'm off the internet for a couple of days...and look what I missed! Debate is a wonderful thing. It lets you see more sides of the issue. As for me, I posted the article because I thought it was interesting. I live a rural life, and have observed the farming practices (out here anyway) as they have evolved over the years. Agriculture is an industry. Top quality yields are necessary if a farmer wants to stay in business. Most of the farmers I know are college educated and well aware of the impact their farming practices have.

When I was 16 I started working for Delmonte to finance my college education. My job was to pick through sweet corn to remove fungus"smut", and corn worms. It didn't pay much, but I got to work double shifts, so the money was pretty good. I digress. My point here is that 40 years ago there were a lot of farmers who were hoping for a better pesticide, and I had a front row seat in understanding how destructive disease and pests can be to a crop.

As for me and my little berry farm, well I spent the last three days hand weeding raspberries. I am not certified organic, but probably could be. However, if disease or pests threatened my crop, I certainly would use a pesticide (as environmentally safe and low dosage as possible). Otherwise no one will be eating my raspberries! It's a matter of balance in thought, word and deed (sounds religious doesn't it ?)

That's about all I have to say, except that I appreciate the passion expressed on this issue, and respect and believe in the right to us all having our own voice!