I say the more information, the better.
We're big boys/girls; we can weigh the
relative significance of those data points.
I've been influenced as much by "good-
mouthing" a restaurant as by any decried
negativity. I'd go out of my way to patronize
a place like, say, Birrieria Zaragoza because
of the seemingly off-topic asides that were
able to capture the warmth and hospitality
of the family/staff. If a place comes along
with offerings even nearly as good as PN,
I'd probably opt for the ones served with
the least contempt. Then again, if Himmler*
made the best rugelach/Hamantaschen ever,
I'm sure some would be tempted to give those
a try. It's all a matter of priorities.
(Heh, almost Godwin's Law!)

Beauner wrote:In the great cities of Europe (Paris, Vienna, Florence, etc.) one expects to pay the equivalent of $7 to $10 for a great pastry and happily does so.

Nope. The vast majority in Vienna were in the €3-4 (<$5) range:

I noticed that there is now a new twitter feed specifically for the business, while the existing one debated in this thread will be purely for personal musings.

rickster wrote:I noticed that there is now a new twitter feed specifically for the business, while the existing one debated in this thread will be purely for personal musings.

Maybe we should have one thread to discuss the twitter feed and one to discuss the food.

Bringing this discussion full-circle, Shut Up Foodie! has now blogged about Natalie's Twitter feed after discovering it via LTHForum.

aschie30 wrote:Bringing this discussion full-circle, Shut Up Foodie! has now blogged about Natalie's Twitter feed after discovering it via LTHForum.

thanks for the link.

I guess its kind of refreshing, in this p.c. world, that this Natalie character is brave enough to voice her seeming dislike for everyone, and sprays her venom to all areas of society without prejudice.

jimswside wrote:

aschie30 wrote:Bringing this discussion full-circle, Shut Up Foodie! has now blogged about Natalie's Twitter feed after discovering it via LTHForum.

thanks for the link.

I guess its kind of refreshing, in this p.c. world, that this Natalie character is brave enough to voice her seeming dislike for everyone, and sprays her venom to all areas of society without prejudice.

Well, heaven knows the world needs more jerks.

Waiting for ruthbourdain to pick this up...

while quietly hoping the meta-discussion dies here..

Kennyz wrote:While a $7 PN cannolo is cheaper than a flight to Boston, I think it's worth noting that Modern Pastry - makers of the best cannoli this side of the Atlantic - charges $3.

Modern Pastry
257 Hanover Street
(617)523-3783

I was In Boston earlier this week and more or less went straight from Logan to Modern Pastry. The cannoli are fabulous and actually cost only $2.75. Plus there's a volume discount: I picked up 4 for takeaway and they came to $10. Including tax.

I went straight from there to Neptune Oyster for a dozen fresh ones and a pint of Harpoon IPA.

That night my college roommate picked up some 1.5 pound lobsters at the Legal Seafoods retail counter at Chestnut hill. We boiled them up and served them along with some grilled asparagus and boiled red potatoes. Dessert: the takeout cannoli from Modern. A pretty perfect Boston afternoon/evening.

Patrick

I've been meaning to post this since Memorial Day weekend. After Bike the Drive, I headed up to Andersonville for brunch, and had a delightful meal at M. Henry capped off by the top-notch bread pudding, which I've been craving ever since. I'd been there at least a dozen time and had never ordered it - I'll not make that mistake again.

Since I was up there, I was determined to get something from Natalina, but I wasn't sure what. I'd only been there once before - probably two years ago - and had a pastry with amarena cherries that I remember as tasty, if not earth-shattering. When I stopped in this time, though, there were mostly small packages of cookies and a few tarts. (I'm not sure whether Natalie and Nick were on vacation that weekend and a few days after? I stopped in again on Thursday of that week, without buying anything, and the selection seemed much the same).

Regarding the prices, here are some photos for comparison. First, the array of produce I got from the market up the street for $7.

Now, the packet of cookies from Natalina for $8.50. (Apricot shown for scale purposes).

And the taste? Unfortunately, basically like a crunchier Orange Milano. So help me out. I'm definitely willing to give it another try, since everything other than the prices at Natalina seems to draw raves.

What should I have ordered (if available)?

(I'm not sure whether Natalie and Nick were on vacation that weekend and a few days after? I stopped in again on Thursday of that week, without buying anything, and the selection seemed much the same).

In Slovakia, looking for mushrooms

http://twitter.com/inourownhands

I've only been there a couple of times. The amarena cherry pastry was one of the better items I had. Price aside, I liked the cannoli and sfogliatelle.

There’s no such thing as high-end vs. inexpensive pastry. Pastry is a luxury artform, period. Inexpensive pastry is simply imitation pastry.

- Natalie from her Twitter feed

I've only had the cannoli from Pasticceria Natalina, but I can tell you that it might be one of the best I've ever eaten and I went to school in Italy. So to me, it's worth the $8 (cannot remember the exact price) because when I do choose to purchase one, I know for sure I'm getting something totally incredible that is hard to find in America.

There’s no such thing as high-end vs. inexpensive pastry. Pastry is a luxury artform, period. Inexpensive pastry is simply imitation pastry.

This is a correct conclusion, providing you accept the premises:

All pastry is luxury artform. All luxury artforms are expensive. Therefore inexpensive pastry cannot be pastry.

Somewhat similar to the following syllogism:

All blackbirds are completely black. All male redwing blackbirds have red in their wings. Therefore, a male red-winged blackbird cannot be a blackbird.

All luxury artforms are expensive.

I can't think of one that is not.

Shaggywillis wrote:

All luxury artforms are expensive.

I can't think of one that is not.

Oh, come on. You have to accept all of the premises. Try this one:

jbw wrote:All pastry is luxury artform.

Shaggywillis wrote:

All luxury artforms are expensive.

I can't think of one that is not.

"Luxury artform" is a very subjective term.

According to Michael Ruhlman calling cooking in any form "art" is a misnomer. Craft? Without a doubt. Art? No. Of course all of this could lead us down the road to a semantic nightmare.

JLenart wrote:Of course all of this could lead us down the road to a semantic nightmare.

Should we lock the thread now and get ahead of the game?

Thinking about it, I feel like when one person calls another person's cooking an art form it's potentially meaningful. When a person refers to their own cooking as an art form, it's bordering on pretension.

=R=

ROnnie, I never thought about it like that but what you say has a lot of merit.

ronnie_suburban wrote:When a person refers to their own cooking as an art form, it's bordering on pretension.

It also sounds ambiguously Canadian to me.

I love this thread. Yeah, "art" is totally subjective, but the "luxury" part is easy. A luxury is ultimately anything you don't need, which pretty much covers anything anyone else cooks or bakes for you, from tacos to cakes. As for art, being totally subjective, its value is pretty flexible as well. It's a good question, though: at what point does inexpensive become cheap? At what point does expensive become over-priced? Lots of variables to account for. In this instance, the cost does seem if not prohibitive, then certainly by default something most people wouldn't pay that often, which in turn drums up the art/luxury aspect. It's kind of an ipso facto thing.

Ruhlman's right that most cooking is a craft. His tact is very smart for tempering a world where seemingly every half-ass cook buys a box of chard at the farmer's market, sautees it and then shaves some white truffle over it and gets a mention in the local paper and thinks they are the next Daniel Boulud. However, cooking at its highest form, i.e. where you're not just doing variations on hundreds of years of knowledge, but actually pushing major progress and invoking deep emotional and intellectual responses, like say Ferran Adria, there's a strong argument to made for it as an art form.

Natalie's in an interesting position because she's harkening back to a time when all pastries were hand-made with real butter and fresh eggs and not just all-purpose flour, but a range of flours appropriate to the pastry at hand. Now that sounds a bit like craft, but when you consider that most bakeries use sheeters, laminaters, dough rollers, tons of white sugar, industrial shortenings, etc, she's actually being quite revolutionary. She's teaching us what it means to eat well again, and that is an art form.

Even if you don't buy any of that, what I know on a very basic level is that one of her desserts takes 6 hours to make just 20 pieces (the cassatine I believe). If you think you know marzipan, you don't, until you've tried this. Likewise if you drive by that bakery on their days off, it's not uncommon to see her and Nick working until 9 or 10 at night behind that closed door. They're not doing it because they're money grubbing or they have to do this. Both of them are rediculously talented and could easily find better ways to make money. But they believe in this. They believe we all deserve better food. The discipline to work toward that regularly and do it well means a whole lot to me. They might charge a lot, but considering the effort, it's not really a lot at all. It's not because she's trying to gouge you, but because the labor that went in to this thing was extraordinary. That commitment and attention to detail is most definitely an art form, if only because it exists in very few places these days.

MJN wrote:Ruhlman's right that most cooking is a craft. His tact is very smart for tempering a world where seemingly every half-ass cook buys a box of chard at the farmer's market, sautees it and then shaves some white truffle over it and gets a mention in the local paper and thinks they are the next Daniel Boulud. However, cooking at its highest form, i.e. where you're not just doing variations on hundreds of years of knowledge, but actually pushing major progress and invoking deep emotional and intellectual responses, like say Ferran Adria, there's a strong argument to made for it as an art form.

Natalie's in an interesting position because she's harkening back to a time when all pastries were hand-made with real butter and fresh eggs and not just all-purpose flour, but a range of flours appropriate to the pastry at hand. Now that sounds a bit like craft, but when you consider that most bakeries use sheeters, laminaters, dough rollers, tons of white sugar, industrial shortenings, etc, she's actually being quite revolutionary. She's teaching us what it means to eat well again, and that is an art form.

Even if you don't buy any of that, what I know on a very basic level is that one of her desserts takes 6 hours to make just 20 pieces (the cassatine I believe). If you think you know marzipan, you don't, until you've tried this. Likewise if you drive by that bakery on their days off, it's not uncommon to see her and Nick working until 9 or 10 at night behind that closed door. They're not doing it because they're money grubbing or they have to do this. Both of them are rediculously talented and could easily find better ways to make money. But they believe in this. They believe we all deserve better food. The discipline to work toward that regularly and do it well means a whole lot to me. They might charge a lot, but considering the effort, it's not really a lot at all. It's not because she's trying to gouge you, but because the labor that went in to this thing was extraordinary. That commitment and attention to detail is most definitely an art form, if only because it exists in very few places these days.

your post got me thinking...I wonder how many of those who express dismay at the cost of a PN pastry or question whether pastry-making is or isn't an art form are actually attorneys, consultants, accountants, etc. who charge hourly rates that many would consider shocking (and I feel comfortable calling this out b/c I am one )

I've not yet been to PN so can't speak specifically to the value of their product/service, time-based or otherwise, but, just for kicks, taking MJN's example: Say her rate is $100/hour (a low rate for most professional services), so $600/hour to make 20 pieces = $30/piece. Given that she's probably charging less than $10/piece, that would put her hourly rate at closer to $30/hour. And this doesn't include the cost of ingredients

Whatever it is, I think it would be challenging to argue that the service they are providing is worth proportionately less than that of a $500/hour talking head and the memory of the result is typically a lot more pleasant

Golly. The world turns. GB agrees with every single word (every one!) that MJN posts. Who'da thunk it? But the man is 100% correct, imho.

Gypsy Boy wrote:Golly. The world turns. GB agrees with every single word (every one!) that MJN posts. Who'da thunk it? But the man is 100% correct, imho.

It is a compelling point and much of it is hard to disagree with, but at the end of the day the customers still have to ask themselves if they want to spend $7 on a cannoli, even just once.

eatchicago wrote:

Gypsy Boy wrote:Golly. The world turns. GB agrees with every single word (every one!) that MJN posts. Who'da thunk it? But the man is 100% correct, imho.

It is a compelling point and much of it is hard to disagree with, but at the end of the day the customers still have to ask themselves if they want to spend $7 on a cannoli, even just once.

It's not the cost that get's me so much but moreso the seeming deep contempt she has for her clients.

JLenart wrote:

eatchicago wrote:

Gypsy Boy wrote:Golly. The world turns. GB agrees with every single word (every one!) that MJN posts. Who'da thunk it? But the man is 100% correct, imho.

It is a compelling point and much of it is hard to disagree with, but at the end of the day the customers still have to ask themselves if they want to spend $7 on a cannoli, even just once.

It's not the cost that get's me so much but moreso the seeming deep contempt she has for her clients.

Not all of her clients. Just the ones who are fat and don't like to "enjoy themselves" in a very uncomfortable place (and I don't mean the back of a Volkswagen).

Edited to make this less inappropriate.

jesteinf wrote:
Not all of her clients. Just the ones who are fat and don't like anal.

dont forget breeders...

I was staying away from making any more comments on this thread/place, but that is one of the funniest things I have read all day. well done.

Bah! Inappropriateness preserved! Oops

eatchicago wrote:

Gypsy Boy wrote:Golly. The world turns. GB agrees with every single word (every one!) that MJN posts. Who'da thunk it? But the man is 100% correct, imho.

It is a compelling point and much of it is hard to disagree with, ....

Funny, I had no trouble disagreeing with the vast majority of it. I must be better than you at that.